Political Party in Re: to Catholicism

[Amolibri]

Um…not so much.

Does the 2004 Republican Party platform present a pro-corporate agenda? Absolutely it does. Do the actions of the Republican party over the past three years reflect a pro-corporate agenda? Absolutely it does.

Pro-corporate necessarily means anti-working person because a labor force with a strong voice is the greatest barrier to high corporate profits.

By the way, my browser has a spell checker built in. You might want to switch.

:tiphat:

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I get it. You won’t vote for any of the Dems or Repubs. I’m not aware of any prolife third party candidate yet, but it could happen. Failing that, you won’t vote. That’s not the worst idea I’ve seen on here.

Well, I won’t vote on some offices, but I present myself to vote in every election (there have been exceptions, but they are very, very rare) because there are other issues on the ballot that I do want to vote on.

Oh, and I’m not Satan.

SIGH! By calling a lie satanic, I’m not calling anyone satan. I intend to point out the severity of the lie. Would pathological be less offensive? It’s directed at people who say that a failure to vote Republican is a vote for abortion.l

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Well, you know…it’s amazing how things are spun to make it seem like Republicanism=pro-life when nothing could be further from the truth. In actuality, Repubicanism=corporatism. The pro-life issues are sprinkled over the corporatism to hide them. Sort of like Luther talking about snow-covered dunghills.

Fact is, the Republican party would gladly jettison the pro-life plank if it could get away with it.

Yes, anyone who looks at the history of this, can see clearly that the Republican leadership made a calculated move to go after the right wing evangelicals. It has always been to serve their purposes. Naturally the religious right by and large does not benefit but is actually hurt by republican economic policies, but they continue to dangle the life issues and other hot button emotional issues to attract them.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Oh, how cute. Your usual cut-and-paste accusation that people who DARE do disagree with the right-wing ideology presented by the Corporatist, sorry… Republican, Party are actually, bloody, murderous, baby-killing Satan-worshiping ghouls who would love nothing more than to restore public human sacrifice.

HOW DARE YOU!!!

The Republicans oppose taxpayer-funded abortions because they oppose taxpayer-funded ANYTHING. Yes, the Republican party snips around the edges of the abortion issue but nothing substantive is actually accomplished.

Until you acknowledge the Jack Abramof scandal and the part that REPUBLICAN Party operatives and pols play in forced abortions in Saipan, you have absolutely NO credibility whatsover.

He just enjoys attempting to shock with the nastiest words he can find, even though he admits its counterproductive to his position, which is sad in itself.

 

[vern_humphrey]

He just enjoys attempting to shock with the nastiest words he can find, even though he admits its counterproductive to his position, which is sad in itself.

If you follow the thread, you see there is no need to shock this particular poster.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Actually, according to the CCC, it is morally equivelent. Torture of prisoners is strictly prohibited under the doctrine of Just War. If the war is not just, then the pregnant woman and their infants killed so far are murder and forced abortion.

As the Church points out (via the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith), “limiting the harm” as explained by JPII is not an excuse to twist the faith:

So pointing out that there are multiple, important, and cohesively connected teachings that should be considered by voters is the official position of the Church.

The Church describes the opposite, voting on a single, narrow interpretation of an isolated teaching not only “incoherent” but even a “detriment”. So there is no “smoke screen”, only Catholicism.

In fact, the Pope himself has framed torture and secret detention as a “pro life” issue, speaking in his official capacity. That is, the ultimate authority on morality for the Church sees the issues as connected. Similiarly, the Pope raised concerns about the fate of Christians in Iraq as an issue of the inalienable rights of the human person (as explained by the Second Vatican Council). That is the foundation (according to the Church’s DECLARATION ON PROCURED ABORTION) of our teaching on abortion as well.

So when a poster like estesbob talks about “the truth” and being “legitimately” pro-life in a Catholic context, we are using a different definition than the apostolic authority of the Church. To me, presenting an alternate ideology as the lone acceptable expression of Catholicism is more than a “smoke screen”. It is anathema, seperate from the Body of Christ:

I find it sad how often we fail to connect our Sunday obligation to our lives at large. A central feature of Mass is that we repeatedly acknowledge our unworthiness. We are all sinners, yet we are all welcome at God’s Table. Yet, here we are, all sinners, all making moral compromises, and so much energy being expended into not only presenting one’s own choices as the one truth path to enlightenment, but deriding even disagreement as intellectual dishonesty.

We are all, to some degree or another, Cafeteria Catholics. Rather it is turning the other cheek or selling all our posessions to give to the poor, Jesus sets a standard that none of us can fully meet. But claiming moral authority in excess of Rome’s or that one is in posession of the one true path to salvation is not Cafeteria Catholicism, it is heresy, schism, and anathema. There is no Catholicism without Christ and the lines in our profession of faith (the Nicene Creed) are not optional.

Bravo well said. Some here who argue the most vociferously against abortion also argue that waterboarding is not torture, the Death penalty is good as strict judgement and retribution and that the Iraq war is not unjust. Those three while not clear church doctrine are about as close as one can get and in the opposite direction. Yet they are not avoiding the teaching of the church in their minds at all…the Magisterium continues to be used to get where you want to go.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

“Vatican Police”??? The only police the Vatican has is the conscience of the individual Catholic. Think about it.

Vote as you will and take moral responsibility for it.

It seems she is doing just that.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Bravo well said. Some here who argue the most vociferously against abortion also argue that waterboarding is not torture, the Death penalty is good as strict judgement and retribution and that the Iraq war is not unjust. Those three while not clear church doctrine are about as close as one can get and in the opposite direction. Yet they are not avoiding the teaching of the church in their minds at all…the Magisterium continues to be used to get where you want to go.

Give us some specific examples.

 

[estesbob]

Um…not so much.

Does the 2004 Republican Party platform present a pro-corporate agenda? Absolutely it does. Do the actions of the Republican party over the past three years reflect a pro-corporate agenda? Absolutely it does.

In your opinion. In my opinion it does not. However please note that on the issue of abortion it’s not a matter of subjective opinion. One party’s platform stands against it and one party’s platform not only supports it but wants the taxpayers to pay for it. There is no dispute about what the platforms say.

Pro-corporate necessarily means anti-working person because a labor force with a strong voice is the greatest barrier to high corporate profits.

Again in your opinion. However unless you can show me some place in the Republican Party platform where proclaims to be pro-corporate and anti-worker it is again just your opinion. My corporation employs 10 people. Not a one of them will tell you that I’m anti-worker.

 

[vern_humphrey]

In your opinion. In my opinion it does not. However please note that on the issue of abortion it’s not a matter of subjective opinion. One party’s platform stands against it and one party’s platform not only supports it but wants the taxpayers to pay for it. There is no dispute about what the platforms say.

Again in your opinion. However unless you can show me some place in the Republican Party platform where proclaims to be pro-corporate and anti-worker it is again just your opinion. My corporation employs 10 people. Not a one of them will tell you that I’m anti-worker.

Funny how those on the other side of this argument, those who claim to be “pro-labor”, will never bestir themselves to do the most pro-labor thing one can do – start a business and employ someone!

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Nowhere does the Catechsim say torture of prisoners and abortion are morally equivalent. Certainly, it does not mention waterboarding or sleep deprivation (which are the things the left mentions when talking about how the U.S. tortures people) at all, anywhere. There’s a lot of difference. The guy who’s waterboarded survives the experience. The aborted child doesn’t. There is just no way that, e.g., my punching someone in the nose (which many would classify as torture) is as serious a sin as murder.

The Pope has not said either the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq are unjust wars. Nor does the CCC say it. It could be argued either way. Abortion cannot be argued either way. Both the Pope and the CCC say abortion is gravely immoral.

If you are going to vote for abortion, and it seems so, just do it, and admit that’s what you’re going to do.

Both JPII and Benedict have spoken forcefully against the war in Iraq. He has even suggested that the CCC may need revising since he cannot think of a case where a just war is appropriate. So while there is no direct dogma that is infallible, the handwriting is on the wall so to speak. Those who claim the war is otherwise are of course not following Church teaching in the full sense of the world. See this link :

amconmag.com/2005/2005_08_29/article.html This is from the American Conservative.

See generally my blog for Jan. 6 entitled, “Turned the Other Cheek Today” and more links on the subject.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

If you follow the thread, you see there is no need to shock this particular poster.

And you’re such a genteel Southern gentleman with all your snarky comebacks.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Funny how those on the other side of this argument, those who claim to be “pro-labor”, will never bestir themselves to do the most pro-labor thing one can do – start a business and employ someone!

There are some who do. Some realize that they “don’t have the lobes for business” and don’t.

 

[Amolibri]

And you’re such a genteel Southern gentleman with all your snarky comebacks.

and ‘holier than thou’ accusations.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

and ‘holier than thou’ accusations.

Par for the course. Sort of like Billo talking about how the “libs” always degenerate into name calling all the while starting a new segment called “pinhead of the day” where he declares this or that person to be…a pinhead. Pot, meet kettle.

 

[estesbob]

Both JPII and Benedict have spoken forcefully against the war in Iraq. He has even suggested that the CCC may need revising since he cannot think of a case where a just war is appropriate. So while there is no direct dogma that is infallible, the handwriting is on the wall so to speak. Those who claim the war is otherwise are of course not following Church teaching in the full sense of the world. See this link :

amconmag.com/2005/2005_08_29/article.html This is from the American Conservative.

See generally my blog for Jan. 6 entitled, “Turned the Other Cheek Today” and more links on the subject.

Are you aware that if this war had been declared unjust by the Catholic Church every single Catholic soldier in Iraq would have to drop his weapon or be guilty of a mortal sin ?. Now tell me how you reconcile that with the church saying we need to stay in Iraq until it is stabilized? Are you actually claiming that the Church is telling Catholic soldiers soldiers to stay in Iraq even though you’re going to go to hell for it? Utter nonsense

Of course you’re also ignoring the fact that Benedit specifically said that Catholics in good conscious could differ from the Pope about war.

There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Cardinal Ratzinger

The church leaves it up to the prudent judgment of the leadership of acountry to determine whether or not war should be waged. The church also leaves it up to the faithful to determine whether it is just to support the war or not. Again you’re entitled your opinions but you’re not entitled to mistate Catholic doctrine

 

[vern_humphrey]

Par for the course. Sort of like Billo talking about how the “libs” always degenerate into name calling all the while starting a new segment called “pinhead of the day” where he declares this or that person to be…a pinhead. Pot, meet kettle.

For the life of me I can’t understand people who make things up – like the 2008 Republican Party Platform – to stoke their hatred.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

For the life of me I can’t understand people who make things up – like the 2008 Republican Party Platform – to stoke their hatred.

ROFLOL! What are you accusing me of making up? Billo saying that “libs” degenerate into name-calling or the pinhead thing? Check out his very own website and you’ll see “Pinheads and Patriots”

 

[vern_humphrey]

ROFLOL! What are you accusing me of making up?

The “2008 Republican Party Platform.”

Billo saying that “libs” degenerate into name-calling or the pinhead thing? Check out his very own website and you’ll see “Pinheads and Patriots”

I have not seen any posts in these forums by anyone with the handle of Billo. Who is Billo, and what does he have to do with this discussion?

And how does that justify making up things like the “2008 Republican Party Platform?”

 

[SoCalRC]

Although I actually see a lot of good in Vatican II reforms, not least of which being a stronger emphasis on our pro-life teachings, I think that we lost something when Catholic school children stopped memorizing the Baltimore Catechism and classrooms went from the leadership of nuns and priests to the laity. Addressing your points one at a time:

Nowhere does the Catechsim say torture of prisoners and abortion are morally equivalent.

I stated simply, and accuratedly, that torture of prisoners is a non negotiable criteria of Catholic Just War doctrine, spelled out in the Catechism of the Church. Even George Weigel, one of the few individuals who attempted to make a case for Just War in Iraq, has publicly conceded as much.

If a war is not just, then shooting innocent pregnant woman at checkpoints is murder and forced abortion. Murder is declared an infallible teaching as a grave moral disorder in exactly the same Papal document as direct abortion and direct euthanasia.

People could (and have) tried to argue that one attrocity is more important than the other, hence “limiting the harm”. But the Church has formally instructed the laity that such thinking is “incoherent” and even a “detriment” to Catholic teaching as a whole:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

The document does note that Peace, while a non-negotiable moral principle, is an extremely complex question. However, there are many examples of “moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation”, and abortion is but one of them.

Certainly, it does not mention waterboarding or sleep deprivation (which are the things the left mentions when talking about how the U.S. tortures people) at all, anywhere.

The catechism specifically prohibits torture of prisoners. Futher, there is no ambiguity about the morality of torture under the Catholic faith:

“The thought of Jesus being stripped, beaten and derided until his final agony on the cross should always prompt a Christian to protest against similar treatment of their fellow beings. Of their own accord, disciples of Christ will reject torture, which nothing can justify, which causes humiliation and suffering to the victim and degrades the tormentor.” - Pope John Paul II

“International judicial instruments concerning human rights correctly indicate a prohibition against torture as a principle which cannot be contravened under any circumstances.” - Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church.

cont.