Political Party in Re: to Catholicism

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The “2008 Republican Party Platform.”
If it’s anything like the 2004 platform, I expect it to be pretty odious, with a light sprinkling of pro-life snow to try to gussy it up.
I have not seen any posts in these forums by anyone with the handle of Billo. Who is Billo, and what does he have to do with this discussion?
How obtuse do you want to be? Really. :rolleyes:
And how does that justify making up things like the “2008 Republican Party Platform?”
I’m predicting what I expect based on what’s been presented in the past. “Conservatives” don’t like change, so they won’t change the platform all the much, except, perhaps to make it even more odious that it was last time.
 
If it’s anything like the 2004 platform, I expect it to be pretty odious, with a light sprinkling of pro-life snow to try to gussy it up.
Ah, the old, “They didn’t actually do it, but I think they would, so aren’t they bad” ploy.😃

You’re at war with your own imagination.😛
 
There’s a lot of difference. The guy who’s waterboarded survives the experience. The aborted child doesn’t.
Actually, our teaching is that there isn’t truly a difference. In EVANGELIUM VITAE JPII declared 3 infallible teachings, murder, direct abortion, and direct euthanasia. He demonstrated beautifully that all are part of a single unified teaching, the inalienable rights of the human person as defined by the Second Vatican Council. The Pope then went on to extend the same principle and teaching to capitol punishment in industrialized nations. He stopped short of declaring it an infallible teaching, but the weight of the teaching can be seen by its inclussion in the Catechism.

Look at the following quote from Pope Stephen V from the 9th century:
“If he who destroys what is conceived in the womb by abortion is a murderer, how much more is he unable to excuse himself of murder who kills a child even one day old.” Pope Stephen V, Epistle to Archbishop of Mainz
The Pope was addressing a question about a local custom of infanticide, a major problem for the Church for the first millenia. Look at the suggestion of self evident relativism. Now, apply the reverse, if you cannot see the value in a fully formed human being, how can you really hold the Church’s view of the partially formed fetus?

And it is the right, not the left, that prefers to focus on waterboarding and portray it as some sort of ‘prank’. But waterboarding has been specifically identified as torture by the US Government since the Spanish American war and by the Church for almost 2 centruries longer.

Further, my concerns run much deeper. For example, I don’t see the case of Abed Hamed Mowhoush, who we know from testimony was, at the age of 56, was stuffed in a sleeping bag, tied with electrical cord and beaten - to death. Or the Hamadi case, where a detainee was beaten and then died from crucifixion (handcuffed to the bars of a cell). Or the government first hiring Pinochet thugs and then paying hush money when they execute civilians for sport.
The Pope has not said either the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq are unjust wars. Nor does the CCC say it.
I’m sorry, you are incorrect. Two Popes have strenuously argued that Iraq is not just. For example:

cjd.org/paper/jp2war.html

Again, even George Weigel has conceded that he is at odds with Rome. By definition, the teachings are prudential, however, the repeated choice of Easter, our holiest celebration to declare the situation as a “grave evil” shows that the teaching has significant weight.

Rome has spoken, loudly and clearly, since before the war began. Rather or not Catholics listen is another matter.

cont.
 
Actually,** our teaching is that there isn’t truly a difference**. In EVANGELIUM VITAE JPII declared 3 infallible teachings, murder, direct abortion, and direct euthanasia.
What part of that says, “It’s okay to support abortion because of waterboarding?”
 
Ah, the old, “They didn’t actually do it, but I think they would, so aren’t they bad” ploy.😃

You’re at war with your own imagination.😛
Every presidential election cycle, each party updates its party platform. Duh! 😛 I look at the 2004 platform and see a lot of odious stuff (support of increased corporate power, wholesale deregulation, tax-cuts for the wealthy, cuts in services to working-class people, anti-union, pre-emptive wars of choice, etc. all couched in language that makes it seems like these are good things (they are…for a very small number of people)) with some anti-abortion language thrown in to make it appear palatable. Do you honestly expect it to change all that much? I expect it to get worse.
 
It could be argued either way. Abortion cannot be argued either way. Both the Pope and the CCC say abortion is gravely immoral.
Again, I lament for the days of everyone knowing the Baltimore Catechism… Our teaching on abortion has no foundation in Holy Scripture (the Pope expressly said so in the GOSPEL OF LIFE). Further, our Holy Tradition is inconsistant. So the teaching in its current form rests principally with the Magesterium, which we believe has a Gift of Authority.

Multiple Popes, and the Second Vatican Council, demonstrated that our current conception to natural death beliefs about life are compatible with scripture, and consistant with Holy Tradition. In such matters, the Pope’s authority is beyond dispute:
“If anyone should say that the Roman Pontiff has merely the function of inspection or direction but not full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not only in matters pertaining to faith and morals, but also in matters pertaining to the discipline and government of the Church throughout the entire world, or that he has only the principal share, but not the full plenitutde of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate over all Churches and over each individual Church, over all shepherds and all the faithful, and over each individual one of these: let him be anathema” - Vatican Council I, Dogmatic Constitution of the Church of Christ, #3
That is, long before John Paul II declared direct abortion infallible via the universal acceptance of the ordinary magesterium, Catholic knew it was our teaching and a gravely immoral act.

This is why the Church views single teaching voting as “incoherent” and a “detriment”. If you rely on the Gift of Authority to justify one position, then routinely make the false assertion that prudential teachings are inherently optional, one position errodes the viability of the other.
If you are going to vote for abortion, and it seems so, just do it, and admit that’s what you’re going to do.
I think you have wholly missed the point. I do not vote for abortionists, but people who vote Democrats or Republicans generally do.

For example, the GOP leadership has direct ties to modern slavery and forced abortion in Saipan, a US protectorate. The Princes of the Church here in the US specifically identified the problem and brought it to the attention of US Catholics. So, if you vote for GOP, you voted for the leadership, and the leadership prevented politicians from both sides of the aisle from extending US labor laws and protections to lands under our authority and protection (in exchange for money, perks, prostitutes, etc.)

As promised in Matt 25, the Son of Man will call us together as Nations and judge us on such treatment. According to the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, we are individually responsible for the consequences of such electoral results.

My point is that I follow the Church’s advice and vote my entire faith, I do not make the “incoherent” choice of picking and choosing teachings. But I am still a sinner and in no way a perfect reflection of Christ’s message, so it is not my place to morally judge people who make other choices.

But, since we are ALL sinners making moral compromises - even GOP voters with regards to abortion, I would strongly encourage people to stop declaring their own choices as the only viable path to salvation and villifying individuals who disagree with them. Self rightousness and demonizing might pass for coherent political discourse these days, but it is at direct odds with both the specific teachings of the Church and Christ’s earthly ministry.
 
Every presidential election cycle, each party updates its party platform. Duh!
And the 2008 party platforms haven’t been constructed yet. Double Duh! 😛
I look at the 2004 platform and see a lot of odious stuff (support of increased corporate power, wholesale deregulation, tax-cuts for the wealthy, cuts in services to working-class people, anti-union, pre-emptive wars of choice, etc. all couched in language that makes it seems like these are good things (they are…for a very small number of people)) with some anti-abortion language thrown in to make it appear palatable. Do you honestly expect it to change all that much? I expect it to get worse.
I notice you don’t actually quote the platform to back up your imagination.😛
 
What part of that says, “It’s okay to support abortion because of waterboarding?”
Vern, if you don’t understand EVANGELIUM VITAE (and since you have claimed to see uterine cysts as human beings, but have no problem with capitol punishment claiming innocents or torture of suspects, it seems likely you do not), then you may object to abortion, but not on the basis of Catholic Doctrine.

The problem isn’t that you are republican or neoconservative, or that you reject even Christ’s teachings on monetaryism. The problem is that you, and others here, are loudly professing your moral superiority, either through relativism or absolutes.

Since you have declared that it is OK for you to disagree with the Pope on matters of life and death, and the Pope is, by dogmatic constitution, the undisputed moral leader of the Church. Declarations of your own moral infallibility in any matter is anathema.

You are serving two masters, and, by appearances, love one more. It is not my place to judge you, but I will pray for you. And for anyone else who feels compelled to conform their faith to their voting, not vice versa. God is the true source of all power and goodness, so compromising God’s word for political expediency is always doomed to long term failure.
 
Vern, if you don’t understand EVANGELIUM VITAE
No, you don’t understand Evantgelium Vitae.

No one who understands Evangelium Vitae can something like this:
JPII declared 3 infallible teachings, murder, direct abortion, and direct euthanasia.
And claim that somehow waterboarding is morally equivallent to abortion – and then extend that claim to justify supporting pro-choice politicians!!
(and since you have claimed to see uterine cysts as human beings,
And, if they have their own DNA, that’s exactly what they are. The fact that we cannot save them doesn’t nullify their humanity.
but have no problem with capitol punishment claiming innocents or torture of suspects,
Give me a single quote where I defended either “capitol punishment claiming innocents or torture of suspects.”

And if you can’t, I expect an apology.
capitol punishment claiming innocents or torture of suspects it seems likely you do not), then you may object to abortion, but not on the basis of Catholic Doctrine.
Says who?
The problem isn’t that you are republican or neoconservative,
How am I a “neoconservative?”
or that you reject even Christ’s teachings on monetaryism.
You made that up!😛

What are “Christ’s teachings on monetaryism.” Where in the Gospels or Sacred Tradition does the word “monetaryism” appear?
The problem is that you, and others here, are loudly professing your moral superiority, either through relativism or absolutes.
I’m not the one making up one excuse after another to justify voting for pro-abortion politiciasn.
Since you have declared that it is OK for you to disagree with the Pope on matters of life and death, and the Pope is, by dogmatic constitution, the undisputed moral leader of the Church. Declarations of your own moral infallibility in any matter is anathema.
Whoa! What a sweeping and unfounded accusation!!

I have quoted Cardinal Ratzinger’s comment that a Catholic may legitimately differ with the Holy Father on matters of war or capital punishment, but not on abortion or euthanasia.
You are serving two masters, and, by appearances, love one more.
As opposed to serving one master – the God of Abortion on Demand?
It is not my place to judge you,
But that doesn’t stop you, does it?😛
but I will pray for you. And for anyone else who feels compelled to conform their faith to their voting, not vice versa.
That would be those people who make up all kinds of reasons to vote for pro-abortion politicians, not those who hold human life sacred, as I do.
God is the true source of all power and goodness, so compromising God’s word for political expediency is always doomed to long term failure.
You just might want to think about that.

When you loose your cool, and degenerate into unfounded, wild accusations and personal attacks, as you have here, you cede the argument.
 
What are “Christ’s teachings on monetaryism.” Where in the Gospels or Sacred Tradition does the word “monetaryism” appear?
You mean you missed the passage where he said: “We are all Keynesians now.”😃
 
No, you don’t understand Evantgelium Vitae.

No one who understands Evangelium Vitae can something like this:

And claim that somehow waterboarding is morally equivallent to abortion – and then extend that claim to justify supporting pro-choice politicians!!
You know perfectly well that I do not vote for pro-choice politicians. The biggest distinction is that I have a more extensive view of pro-life. That is, I do not accept a mere statement that someone opposes legal abortion in secular law, I expect a true pro life voting record and, say, no profiteering from forced abortion in one’s political funding.

So you seem to be bearing false witness against me, presumably chosing to attack me with falsehoods rather than discussing the actual merits of your choices.

I am not arguing that ‘they’ are morally equivelent, because I cannot read the mind of God. I am only arguing that they are both gravely immoral. That is, both are, in the words of the Church “moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation”. So I do not, to the best of my ability, compromise on them in my voting.

Over the centuries, our human perception of relative gravity changes, which is why Christ warned us not to project our own ideas about the path to salvation onto God. For example, in the 8th century, abortion carried a penance of 120 days, oral sex 10 years, sterilization or murder 20 years to life. Few US Catholics would equate oral sex as being grievously more serious than abortion today.

Undeniably, you do compromise. You have elevated a narrow definition of a single teaching to special status and argue that you must vote accordingly. In this I believe the Church is correct, it is “incoherent” and a “detriment”. Look at your own arguments.

You have, in the past, cited Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter stating that not all teachings are equal. You have even noted that Ratzinger went on to be Pope. So you argue that the Gift of Authority justifies your position. But let’s look deeper. The letter was to the Bishops, not the laity, and addressed a theological issue. The infallibility of abortion and euthanasia stems from the Universal agreement of the Ordinary Magesterium. That is, it rests not on the Pope, or Scripture, but the infallibility of the Church via universal agreement of the Bishops.

If we truly believe in the Gift of Authority, we can look to Ratzinger’s other writings. The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, which Ratzinger oversaw, wrote a doctrinal note to the laity, which specifically noted that single issue voting is a detrement to the faith and listed a wide range of moral issues beyond compromise.

Further, we can consider that the same Cardinal Ratzinger publicly stated that there is no foundation for a just war in Iraq under an honest reading of the Catechism…

If you reject the authority of the Church when it does not match your politics, then you are not being intellectually honest when you cite it for something which does. That is, you are making an argument of convenience, not following a core principle.

Yet again, all this is fine. I am a sinner who makes moral compromises, so I cannot condemn you for being one as well. However, I do feel compelled to point out that professing that one’s compromises are the one true path to faith, in absolutes, while demonizing those who disagree is not only incompatible with the Catholic faith, but Christianity in general.

Consider, the GOP now requires loyalty oaths for participation in certain events, administration officials testify that they have a loyalty oath to the President, and the President has suggested that he receives direction directly from Jesus. Further, any GOP politician with national ambitions must pay homage to two groups which have repeatedly declared Catholicism as a non-Christian cult.

Just as a pro-choice platform attacks our beliefs about the inalienable rights of the human person, the GOP attacks our fundemental belief of Primacy and the Apostolic nature of our Church - on which, irronically, our own belief in abortion relies.

If you cannot accept that you are making moral compromises in your own voting and that, like the dutiful son (or the Pharisee), you should not perceive any moral relativism between yourself and others as legitimate superiority in the eyes of God, then you are rejecting Christ’s earthly message. And, although I have no right to presume that my own choices will lead to salvation (a narrow opening), I am compelled by my faith to pray for you.
 
When you loose your cool, and degenerate into unfounded, wild accusations and personal attacks, as you have here, you cede the argument.
I am undoubtedly human. Just as you resorted to a demonstrably false accusation in the above response, I am certain that I have been un-Christian on these forums.

But the fact remains that “GOP” and “Catholic” are not synomyms (case in point being the current strain between Washington and the Vatican). And professing otherwise remains deeply heretical.
 
If you reject the authority of the Church when it does not match your politics, then you are not being intellectually honest when you cite it for something which does. That is, you are making an argument of convenience, not following a core principle.
Beautifully said. I applaud you SoCal! 🙂
 
Beautifully said. I applaud you SoCal! 🙂
Of course it’s a strawman. Vern didn’t say he rejected the authority the church and neither did I. What we do you reject is the distortions of church teachings that people try to peddle to the ignorant. For instance claiming the church declared the Iraq war unjust or that the church opposes the death penalty in all cases.
 
Of course it’s a strawman. Vern didn’t say he rejected the authority the church and neither did I. What we do you reject is the distortions of church teachings that people try to peddle to the ignorant. For instance claiming the church declared the Iraq war unjust or that the church opposes the death penalty in all cases.
I just noted that a principle was not being uniformly applied. A Cardinal’s words being portrayed as carrying great weight when it was politically expedient, a Pope’s authority being diminished when it is not.

It is the Church, not I, that asserts that single teaching voting is “incoherent”. I simply agree.

But, yet again, that is not the point I am raising. It is the absolute assertion that an earthly political party represents the only viable Catholic choice in public life that I find concerning. The current leadership of the GOP is at odds with Rome and the Princes of the Church on a wide range of issues. Failure to accept this demonstrable fact, or being dismissive of it, is a rejection of the Church’s Gift of Authority - the foundation of our teaching on abortion.

You have actually gone much further, asserting that you and people who think exactly like you are solely reponsible for public social good in a Catholic context. You have also claimed that the GOP is the source of all good on the most important issues of our faith. That is, you have asserted that Republicanism is the only path to salvation.

Assigning power and God’s grace to an earthly club is more than a strawman, it is potentially idolatry. Think about it, you frequently find yourself in agreement with a political party and disagreement with the undisputed moral leader of the Catholic Chruch. That is, you are more prone to assign moral fallibility to the Pope than the most despised and least trusted US President in modern history.

A majority of Catholics world wide currently view the US as a force for evil in the world, but you continue to assert, with absolute certainty, the moral superiority of your personal choice of unwavering support to the same political party.

Jesus tells us when two masters are served, actions tell us which one is loved more. As a fellow sinner, who fails in completely following Jesus, I cannot condemn you for this, but I do continue to be compelled to point out that assigning indisputable divinity to an earthly political constuct is gravely heretical in the eyes of my faith.
 
I seldom find myself at a loss for words, but I am dumb-founded with the vitriole and inane examples that this thread as deteriorated to. I don’t think anyone is going to change anyone elses mind and the examples cited in some instances have nothing whatever to do with the subject at hand. May I also remind that we have been castigated for calling the left party the Democrat Party, I am complaining about the term neo-com. It is a derogatory term and I have no idea how that relates to a conservative.
 
I seldom find myself at a loss for words, but I am dumb-founded with the vitriole and inane examples that this thread as deteriorated to. I don’t think anyone is going to change anyone elses mind and the examples cited in some instances have nothing whatever to do with the subject at hand. May I also remind that we have been castigated for calling the left party the Democrat Party, I am complaining about the term neo-com. It is a derogatory term and I have no idea how that relates to a conservative.
FWIW, Neo-conservative and Neo-Con are self invented. See the Project for the New American Century. Conservative thinker Frances Fukiyama once proudly declared himself a neo conservative. Later he equated the thinking to Leninism and held Iraq up as a perfect example of the philosophy’s intrinsic defects.

“Democrat Party” is derogatory term devised by a political pollster, who found that it had stronger negative reactions in test polling. Use of the term was actively promoted among GOP politicians and has widespread use in right leaning media outlets.

So, one term was self coined and took on negative meaning because of failed policies, the other was invented to subtly disparage one’s political opponents.

Current US foreign policy is indiputably neo-conservative. This is understandable since it was devised by self described neo-conservatives. Current US domestic policy is harder to quantify. It is not ‘fiscally conservative’, nor is it ‘socially conservative’ in the traditional sense. There is a high emphasis on interests of corporations and the wealthy, and a high emphasis on expansions of executive power. The state department actually has a term to describe nations with concentrated expansive powers and close collusion with corporate interests, but I am loathe to use it here.
 
The state department actually has a term to describe nations with concentrated expansive powers and close collusion with corporate interests, but I am loathe to use it here.
Ooh! Ooh! I know what it is! jumps up and down with hand in the air

Does it start with an “f”, Italian in origin and refer to the strength of sticks bound together?
 
FWIW, Neo-conservative and Neo-Con are self invented. See the Project for the New American Century. Conservative thinker Frances Fukiyama once proudly declared himself a neo conservative. Later he equated the thinking to Leninism and held Iraq up as a perfect example of the philosophy’s intrinsic defects.

“Democrat Party” is derogatory term devised by a political pollster, who found that it had stronger negative reactions in test polling. Use of the term was actively promoted among GOP politicians and has widespread use in right leaning media outlets.

So, one term was self coined and took on negative meaning because of failed policies, the other was invented to subtly disparage one’s political opponents.

Current US foreign policy is indiputably neo-conservative. This is understandable since it was devised by self described neo-conservatives. Current US domestic policy is harder to quantify. It is not ‘fiscally conservative’, nor is it ‘socially conservative’ in the traditional sense. There is a high emphasis on interests of corporations and the wealthy, and a high emphasis on expansions of executive power. The state department actually has a term to describe nations with concentrated expansive powers and close collusion with corporate interests, but I am loathe to use it here.
To those of us who are truly conservative, the term neo-conservative is just as derogatory as Democrat Party no matter where it came from. You are either conservative or you are not.
 
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