Politically Incorrect Canonization

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I have read a bit about “canonizing” lately. I heard that they have or want to canonize Queen Isabella of Spain and her husband. As an aboriginal person I find that offensive given the destruction that european states and the church played in the role of our people’s cultural genocide…

Question: What standards do we use to decide whether a person is a saint or not? Like should they be vetted like the Republican candidates 🙂

Bruce
 
I think political correctness should be flushed down the toilet of history. It’s no substitute for morality.

A superior form of social organisation bulldozed an inferior one. I would guess at the time this was thought well and good.

I do sometimes fondly imagine what it would be like to strip those, who prate on the nobility of native cultures, of all vestiges of Western civilisation, and make them live as natives for a decade.

In sum: the locals lost. Their conquerors played them off each other and with better organisation, weapons and tactics comparatively few men beat whole nations.
 
As an aboriginal person I find that offensive given the destruction that european states and the church played in the role of our people’s cultural genocide…
You care more about your culture than your immortal soul? Quite frankly trading an Amerindian tongue for Castellan seems a decent price for one’s salvation. Your culture may have been horribly brutalised but your people were given the True Faith. No need to complain.
 
In all honesty though, We don’t even choose who is a Saint in heaven or not, God has made that decision for us.

Now, how do we figure out what God already knows in order to Declare a person a Saint? By “judging” them by the same standards as all others declared Saints by Holy Mother Church.

Political Correctness should NEVER be considered in this…but for that matter, P/C should go the way of the DO-DO Bird.
 
Political correctness? Political correctness should never be an issue in a cause of canonisation. :rolleyes:

I doubt the Spanish Conquest (if I am reading the OP correctly) would be a huge detriment to any cause for her canonisation, because she was months away from the Americas, and there was no way she could have been significantly engaged in the decision-making behind the colonisation efforts apart from sending people and supplies. Also, she was only alive to witness the first few years of the colonisation effort, while most of the so-called cultural genocide occurred well after her reign. Even if the monarchs were instrumental in them, the sins of her successors cannot be reflected upon herself.

However, I personally doubt Queen Isabella will be canonised. The standards for canonisation have become stricter over the past few centuries, and while Queen Isabella was an astute politician and a wise ruler, some of her decisions are of dubious good, such as a war with a fellow Catholic state (Portugal) - although arguably done in self-defence - and the Alhambra Decree. Furthermore, we will need a lot more information on her holiness and devotion to God, because sainthood is not just about public actions but personal humility as well.
 
Political correctness? Political correctness should never be an issue in a cause of canonisation. :rolleyes:

I doubt the Spanish Conquest (if I am reading the OP correctly) would be a huge detriment to any cause for her canonisation, because there was no way she could have been significantly engaged in the decision-making behind the colonisation efforts apart from simply sending people and supplies, as any contact between the Americas and Spain took months to span the Atlantic. Also, she was only alive to witness the first few years of the colonisation effort, while most of the so-called cultural genocide occurred well after her reign. Even if the monarchs were in any way behind them, the sins of her successors cannot be reflected upon herself.

However, I personally doubt Queen Isabella will be canonised. The standards for canonisation have become stricter over the past few centuries, and while Queen Isabella was an astute politician and a wise ruler, some of her decisions have been of dubious good, such as a war with a fellow Catholic state (Portugal) - although arguably done in self-defence - and the Alhambra Decree. Furthermore, we will need a lot more information on her holiness and devotion to God, because sainthood is not just about public actions but personal humility as well.
 
I think political correctness should be flushed down the toilet of history. It’s no substitute for morality.

A superior form of social organisation bulldozed an inferior one. I would guess at the time this was thought well and good.

I do sometimes fondly imagine what it would be like to strip those, who prate on the nobility of native cultures, of all vestiges of Western civilisation, and make them live as natives for a decade.

In sum: the locals lost. Their conquerors played them off each other and with better organisation, weapons and tactics comparatively few men beat whole nations.
Of course! Might makes right! How could I forget.
 
In all honesty though, We don’t even choose who is a Saint in heaven or not, God has made that decision for us.

Now, how do we figure out what God already knows in order to Declare a person a Saint? By “judging” them by the same standards as all others declared Saints by Holy Mother Church…
Hmmm… yes and no. The Church recognizes some people as saints, not because only those individuals are saints, but because they have led exemplary lives and will serve as models who will inspire the faithful to greater holiness.

It makes sense for the Church to consider, in part, whether the life of an individual speaks to today’s Catholics. So paying special attention to individuals who are non-European, particularly those from under privileged classes, might be especially relevant. After all, the majority of Catholics, and the majority of growth in the Church, is in lesser developed nations.

As for Queen Isabella, I am not familiar with the details of her life. Certainly she may inspire some Catholics. If her selection offends some Catholics, is that reason to reject naming her as a saint? Or maybe delay naming her a saint? I dunno. I guess it would come down to the reasons for rejecting her, and whether there is a moral fault on her part.
 
I think political correctness should be flushed down the toilet of history. It’s no substitute for morality.

A superior form of social organisation bulldozed an inferior one. I would guess at the time this was thought well and good.

I do sometimes fondly imagine what it would be like to strip those, who prate on the nobility of native cultures, of all vestiges of Western civilisation, and make them live as natives for a decade.

In sum: the locals lost. Their conquerors played them off each other and with better organisation, weapons and tactics comparatively few men beat whole nations.
I share your sentiment about political correctness, but that’s about all we agree on. Your proclivity to whitewash the events of the colonisation of the Americas is disturbing. Great sins were committed in the name of exploration, and although South America now greatly benefits from the Catholic faith, it can never justify the great evils that occurred in the process. What you suggest edges close to utilitarianism, and let me remind you that such views - justifying the deaths of innocents for a ‘common good’ - are condemned by the Church. Would you tolerate the Muslims similarly saying that a “superior form of social organisation bulldozed an inferior one” in their conquest of Jerusalem? 🤷
 
The conquest of the Americas didn’t take place because of or for the Catholic faith. It took place because of and for Spain. It wasn’t funded from Rome, it didn’t become Papal territory, it wasn’t ruled from Rome, and the treasure fleets didn’t sail from the New World to Rome. It was a secular (state) action; and no different really then the conquest of Gaul by the Romans or the later actions by non-Catholic European states in Africa and Asia. And, the only real difference between what the Europeans did to Native Americans and what some Native Americans did to other Native Americans is a difference of scale [made possible by their advanced technology and different approach to empire building].

That being said, it was morally wrong and those who supported it from within the Church were morally wrong (and those who opposed it from within the Church were morally right).

As for PC playing a role in the selection of saints, it has no place in that process.
 
“Political Correctness” is evil. It is a philosophy that often hides or suppresses the truth.
 
I suggest you read Isabel of Spain by Warren Carroll.

I also suggest some fact checking regarding the so-called “conquering” of indiginous peoples you attribute to her. Isabella died in 1504.
 
Question: What standards do we use to decide whether a person is a saint or not? Like should they be vetted like the Republican candidates 🙂

Bruce
Bruce - we use no standards as we (the Church) do not decide if anyone is a Saint or not. That is done by almighty God. All the cannonization process does is affirm what God has already accomplished.
 
I have read a bit about “canonizing” lately. I heard that they have or want to canonize Queen Isabella of Spain and her husband. As an aboriginal person I find that offensive given the destruction that european states and the church played in the role of our people’s cultural genocide…

Question: What standards do we use to decide whether a person is a saint or not? Like should they be vetted like the Republican candidates 🙂

Bruce
Actually, there is only one criteria necessary for canonization to be valid and to require an assent of faith on the part of the faithful. That criteria is, “The pope says so.”

The canonical “requirements” for canonization are created to setup a system or a process. However, that system is not binding on the Church. The pope can dispense with it or modify it at any time.

If we go by the canonical process the steps are very clear:
  1. The person lived a life of heroic Christian virtue.
  2. There are two proven miracles that can be absolutely attributed to the deceased.
If we examine number one, the issue of how the Europeans dealt with the indigenous peoples of their colonies is not a reflection on the personal holiness of the monarch. The monarch is responsible for his moral choices, not those of his subjects. He is responsible to leading his subjects, but not for them following. This is where religious freedom kicks in. The monarch can lead, but he cannot choose for his subjects. Their choices are their own.

In addition, one has to factor the culture of the monarch. The monarch can only be held responsible for what he knows, not for what is understood through social evolution. These understandings come after the monarch is long dead. In this case, the common belief of the time was that it was the duty of the Catholic nations of Europe to bring Catholicism on their colonies, even if it meant using force. In their mind, the force was a justified means for saving souls. The whole concept of religious freedom does not really become clear until after WW II. It was rather nebulous at the end of the Middle Ages, almost non-existent.

The question left to the commission is whether the candidate being postulated lived a life of virtue that surpasses that which is ordinary for his time and circumstance, not our time and circumstances. If the Defender of the Faith (formerly known as the Devil’s Advocate) concedes that there is no argument that can be made against the candidate, the case is closed and the candidate is proclaimed Venerable, meaning that his faith is exemplary.

Then you wait for the miracles. One for beatification and the second for canonization.

However, all of this is water under the bridge if the pope believes that the person is a saint and decides to bypass an investigation into the person’s a life and an investigation into alleged miracles.

This was the case with St. Francis, St. Clare, and St. Anthony of Padua. In all three cases, the two popes involved said that they knew that these individuals had lived a life of heroic Christian virtue and they believed the alleged miracles; therefore, no investigation was necessary into their lives or the miracles. The popes canonized them.

A canonization is an infallible decree made from the Chair of Peter. Whether it’s politically correct, diplomatic or not, once the pope says that the faithful must venerate the person as a saint, everything else that may have resulted from their actions is irrelevant. Those things are considered to be unintended effects.

A simple case is the beatification of Bl. John Paul. Many argue that it should not have happened and that he should not be canonized because of the sexual abuse, the liturgical abuses and other problems that arose in the Church during his time. Pope Benedict’s response was firm and final. None of these were intended by the candidate, nor were they ever under his control, because the pope cannot micromanage the Church. It’s impossible to be everywhere and deal with every issue. You must delegate and you have to trust those to whom you delegate.

The pope’s mind is made up not by what happens around the candidate, but by the actual faith and virtue of the candidate. I’m not sure whether the Catholic Monarchs will ever be canonized or not. But if they are, it will be because of their faith and virtue, not those of their subjects.

As I said, the pope can dispense with an investigation into their lives, skip beatification and infallibly canonized and those of us who do not like it, will have to give an assent of faith, regardless of what history books say.

Having lived in South America as a missionary, there is no doubt that the Europeans did a great deal of harm to the local people and the resentment is still there today. So much so that the indigenous people refuse and reject anything in Catholicism that smells European. You have two parallel Catholic communities, the whites and mestizos, who are the descendants of the Europeans and the indigenous people. You can the differences in how they celebrate liturgy, religious art and architecture and religious music. The Franciscans and Dominicans did a very good job of taking Europe out of Catholicism in order to bring in the indigenous people.

But the economic and moral disaster that the Europeans left will take another hundred years to clean up, unless they do as we have done in North America . . . segregate the indigenous people from the mainstream. I don’t see them doing that, since the indigenous people make up 1/3 of the population, unlike North America.
 
On the flip side, the indigenous people were neither saints nor helpless victims. Long before the arrival of the Europeans they inflicted great pain on each other and ravaged each other through wars. From Mexico down to the tip of South America, the indigenous people were very sophisticated cultures. They were not savages, nor were they idiots. They knew how to scam, oppress, abuse, steal and destroy like the best Europeans. Having lived among them for 7 years I can testify to this. We have to give up this illusory image of the harmless and naive native who is the victim of the Europeans. Many holy Europeans lost their lives as the hands of barbaric natives.

We have to look at history with a balanced eye.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I have read a bit about “canonizing” lately. I heard that they have or want to canonize Queen Isabella of Spain and her husband. As an aboriginal person I find that offensive given the destruction that european states and the church played in the role of our people’s cultural genocide…

Question: What standards do we use to decide whether a person is a saint or not? Like should they be vetted like the Republican candidates 🙂

Bruce
The whole thing about the relationship between Spain and aboriginal persons is enormously complex…
 


But the economic and moral disaster that the Europeans left will take another hundred years to clean up, unless they do as we have done in North America . . . segregate the indigenous people from the mainstream. I don’t see them doing that, since the indigenous people make up 1/3 of the population, unlike North America.
Well sure, after we massacred most of the native peoples here - think wounded knee etc. I would like to think that would never happen again, but look at the attitudes toward illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, attitudes still prevalent toward Amerinds and African Americans. If we are going to err, let it be on the side of compassion.
 
You care more about your culture than your immortal soul? Quite frankly trading an Amerindian tongue for Castellan seems a decent price for one’s salvation. Your culture may have been horribly brutalised but your people were given the True Faith. No need to complain.
No need to complain about having your culture “horribly brutalised”? Really? Yes, we can all give thanks that the true faith was brought to the Americas in spite of the evils inflicted by the European peoples who colonized the Americas, but what of the teaching that we can never do evil that good may come. The good that God brought about in spite of acts of human evil does not justify the evils committed.
 
In this day and age, distrust between people over what happened multiple generations ago is understandable, but no excuse for the stupidity we see.

I can’t start giving my cousin the stink-eye because I found out my uncle punched my dad when they were kids over something dumb.

We are all family in a way, are we not?

I also find it hilarious when later generations want to blame outside forces for the total loss of their culture instead of blaming their ancestors who caved to the pressure or just realized a superior system to what they’d known. Heck, we choose the Church as individuals every time we step foot back into the sanctuary. Subsidiarity demands an investigation of the individual motive to submit to the highest point in the chain- you deem it true, do you not? If it’s true today, it was true then. If some rejected it then, they are not “more right” today though the rose-glass of nostalgic revisionism. Insulated cultures rarely last. Toilet paper wasn’t invented. Electricity? Forget it. The internet? Pffft.

Yeah, I could water the little stupid seed of hate for the English in regard to how they treated my Irish and Scottish ancestors. Of course, I’d also have to hate my English ancestors in the process. And where do the German and Norwegian ones fit in? The German ones would probably be demanding a strict system in which to hate the ancestors while the Norwegians would rather just be left alone while they eat weird things considered edible only in the throes of death by starvation by any American.

Most natives got glass beads for land is the meme. Well, God Bless the ones who were fortunate enough to have those beads come in the form of a Rosary.
 
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