Politics is the Way of Force, Christianity is the Way of Volunteerism. Agree?

[Bartolome_Casas]

This is a proposition I have come across from others, though more and more it seems to me be what Jesus Christ teaches and has been teaching since His coming.

In democracy, whatever party or movement (or coalition of such) captures 51% of the vote gets to** impose its will by the FORCE** of law (and police and courts) on the other 49%. Thus, politics and warfare are really virtually the same thing, one just normally being less bloody. I think there is a famous saying that says that “warfare is just politics by other means.”

Thus, in the mass media in the USA, we hear the various propagandists and spokespersons for the two main combatants in the political game condemning each other constantly, and relishing the prospect of capturing POWERFUL political offices and legislatures and Congress, and thereby FORCING a way on those defeated in the political game.

By contrast, in the Gospels and the whole New Testament depict something very different. Jesus never got involved in secular government, and neither did the Apostle Paul, and neither did any of the apostles or disciples. They all invited people to voluntarily believe, repent, and follow Christ. There was no compulsion in religion or spirituality at all, in the New Testament times.

Today, Christians relish the prospect of defeating their enemies (liberals, atheists, socialists) in the political realm. But this lust for power and for the humiliation of enemies in the secular political realm seems to be the very antithesis of the Way of Christ.

Christ is to come in power in His Second Coming, and then he will then use FORCE on this enemies. That is depicted in the Book of Revelation. But until that time, Christians are not meant to force Christianity or virtue or righteousness or Capitalism or libertarianism or lower taxes or marriage laws on anyone. Christians are meant to carry out the Great Commission (preach, convert, and Baptize) and the Great Commandment (love God and neighbor).

I say that “Politics-ism” is a heresy. It is the idea that we can save souls or save the soul of a nation by the Force of Laws backed up by the police, courts, taxing authorities, armies, etc.

I think the Second Vatican Council basically agreed with this view. That Council made a clear and somewhat new declaration of rights of Religious Liberty for all people. That Council made clear that Catholicism should not be forced on anyone, and nor should any religion or atheism be forced on anyone.

Some Jewish people have always opposed Zionism, and some still oppose Zionism, because they see it as trying to achieve in worldly secular terms what only the Messiah can achieve in a spiritual way.

At the very least, I think many in this forum might agree that the desire to defeat, humiliate, and rule over by FORCE our enemies in the Culture War and in politics often has an unChristian, unloving, unspiritual feel to it. It often has the feel that one sees with fans of the NFL, NHL, and NBA. It feels like the soccer hooliganism of Europe. It also often feels like the crowds cheering at the gladiator games in ancient Rome. See what I mean?

Somewhat might say, “What then are Christians supposed to do? Just let the Liberals win and rule?” Christ himself gave us the thing we are supposed to do. It is called the Great Commission. It is witnessing to individuals one-by-one, giving them knowledge of the glorious Christ who has come and will come again, and bringing them to repentance, baptism, and Church membership. That’s it. Nothing else will work. We can win all the elections we want, and but without people **VOLUNTARILY **dedicated to Christ, it will be all for nothing and will all come to dust.

Christ never said that Christians were supposed to rule in this Age, anyway. All He promised the Faithful Ones was persecution, but then Eternal Life in the paradise of Heaven.

Right?

 

[Jeanne_S]

This is a proposition I have come across from others, though more and more it seems to me be what Jesus Christ teaches and has been teaching since His coming.

In democracy, whatever party or movement (or coalition of such) captures 51% of the vote gets to** impose its will by the FORCE** of law (and police and courts) on the other 49%. Thus, politics and warfare are really virtually the same thing, one just normally being less bloody. I think there is a famous saying that says that “warfare is just politics by other means.”

Thus, in the mass media in the USA, we hear the various propagandists and spokespersons for the two main combatants in the political game condemning each other constantly, and relishing the prospect of capturing POWERFUL political offices and legislatures and Congress, and thereby FORCING a way on those defeated in the political game. Well said,I have changed my attitude of late,regarding this issues.Instead of getting caught up in the “we win,you lose” mentality,it is more Christ like and charitable to pray for a conversion of heart,for those whose withvwhom we disagree!

By contrast, in the Gospels and the whole New Testament depict something very different. Jesus never got involved in secular government, and neither did the Apostle Paul, and neither did any of the apostles or disciples. They all invited people to voluntarily believe, repent, and follow Christ. There was no compulsion in religion or spirituality at all, in the New Testament times.

Today, Christians relish the prospect of defeating their enemies (liberals, atheists, socialists) in the political realm. But this lust for power and for the humiliation of enemies in the secular political realm seems to be the very antithesis of the Way of Christ.

Christ is to come in power in His Second Coming, and then he will then use FORCE on this enemies. That is depicted in the Book of Revelation. But until that time, Christians are not meant to force Christianity or virtue or righteousness or Capitalism or libertarianism or lower taxes or marriage laws on anyone. Christians are meant to carry out the Great Commission (preach, convert, and Baptize) and the Great Commandment (love God and neighbor).

I say that “Politics-ism” is a heresy. It is the idea that we can save souls or save the soul of a nation by the Force of Laws backed up by the police, courts, taxing authorities, armies, etc.

I think the Second Vatican Council basically agreed with this view. That Council made a clear and somewhat new declaration of rights of Religious Liberty for all people. That Council made clear that Catholicism should not be forced on anyone, and nor should any religion or atheism be forced on anyone.

Some Jewish people have always opposed Zionism, and some still oppose Zionism, because they see it as trying to achieve in worldly secular terms what only the Messiah can achieve in a spiritual way.

At the very least, I think many in this forum might agree that the desire to defeat, humiliate, and rule over by FORCE our enemies in the Culture War and in politics often has an unChristian, unloving, unspiritual feel to it. It often has the feel that one sees with fans of the NFL, NHL, and NBA. It feels like the soccer hooliganism of Europe. It also often feels like the crowds cheering at the gladiator games in ancient Rome. See what I mean?

Somewhat might say, “What then are Christians supposed to do? Just let the Liberals win and rule?” Christ himself gave us the thing we are supposed to do. It is called the Great Commission. It is witnessing to individuals one-by-one, giving them knowledge of the glorious Christ who has come and will come again, and bringing them to repentance, baptism, and Church membership. That’s it. Nothing else will work. We can win all the elections we want, and but without people **VOLUNTARILY **dedicated to Christ, it will be all for nothing and will all come to dust.

Christ never said that Christians were supposed to rule in this Age, anyway. All He promised the Faithful Ones was persecution, but then Eternal Life in the paradise of Heaven.

Right?

 

[Jeanne_S]

Right on,well said:thumbsup:

 

[Soler]

No.

Evangelization is one thing, politics another. Catholics are free to engage in both.

The Faith can only directly be spread through preaching, persuasion and good example, but the moral law can and ought to be enforced by armed men in uniform.

Individual conversions are a wonderful thing, but the fact of the matter is that people in general tend to conform to the culture in which they find themselves. And the more power one has, the better one is able to influence that culture.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

In democracy, whatever party or movement (or coalition of such) captures 51% of the vote gets to** impose its will by the FORCE** of law (and police and courts) on the other 49%.

This is a mischaracterization because it implies that “the 51%” are one block and “the 49%” are another block, and that each block has a homogeneous view. In fact the viewpoints of a people are spread out over the entire spectrum of views. It may appear today that due to exceptional polarization that views are in two well-defined camps, but that is partly an interpretation that is promoted by the media to sell their stories.

It is also an exaggeration because it does not apply to “whatever” a group likes. It only applies to those aspects of our society that have a strong reason to be decided for all. For example, it is unthinkable that a law would be passed saying that everything had to wear blue clothing just because 51% of the people liked blue better. However if we are talking about a football team, then there is an overriding reason for them to be dressed the same when playing the game, so it is proper in that context for there to be a rule about dressing.

One assumption that is fundamental to all democracies to function well is that the citizens have an inherent consideration for all their fellow citizens. Under that assumption it is hard to imagine a law being passed democratically that unjustly treated some of the citizens. Of course that is exactly what happened after the U.S. Civil War when blacks were not respected by the majority. Then the majority did in fact pass unjust laws disadvantaging blacks. But as people began to interact with a diversity of races, the impetus for unjust laws was reduced and laws did become more fair.

The point is that democracy is not by its very nature unjust. It can be unjust in its application. But so can every other form of social arrangements or non-arrangements you care to name. If you are going to knock democracy for being the “equivalent to warfare” then you had better suggest an alternative way to organize society (or not organize it) that is preferable.

By contrast, in the Gospels and the whole New Testament depict something very different. Jesus never got involved in secular government, and neither did the Apostle Paul, and neither did any of the apostles or disciples. They all invited people to voluntarily believe, repent, and follow Christ. There was no compulsion in religion or spirituality at all, in the New Testament times.

There is no mystery here. The reason none of them exercised political power is because they couldn’t. In the face of the oppressive Roman Empire it was futile to try to get Roman laws passed that reflected Christian values. You might just as well observe that none of the early Church fathers traveled by airplane.

Today, Christians relish the prospect of defeating their enemies (liberals, atheists, socialists) in the political realm. But this lust for power and for the humiliation of enemies in the secular political realm seems to be the very antithesis of the Way of Christ.

An over-generalization. There may be some who call themselves Christian and push a mostly political agenda for less than Christian reasons. But that does not mean sincere-minded Christians should not stand up for what they believe is right in the public square in such a way that does not constitute a “lust for power”.

…until that time, Christians are not meant to force Christianity or virtue or righteousness or Capitalism or libertarianism or lower taxes or marriage laws on anyone.

Again you are lumping a lot of things together that do not necessarily go together. How about the virtue of not murdering your neighbor? Should Christians really be silent on that question? Or should they rather see it as their duty to their neighbors to establish laws that protect people from murder? On the other hand, some kinds of righteousness, as much as we might like to see it practiced, are not appropriate for enforcing by civil law, as some of your examples illustrate.

…It is the idea that we can save souls or save the soul of a nation by the Force of Laws backed up by the police, courts, taxing authorities, armies, etc.

You are trying to tarnish the motivations of all politically active Christians based on an idea that only a few crazies adopt - the idea that civil laws are for saving souls. They are not. They are for fostering the good of the people here and now. There may be people who want to use civil laws to force membership into their church, but that would be an inappropriate use of civil laws.

At the very least, I think many in this forum might agree that the desire to defeat, humiliate, and rule over by FORCE our enemies in the Culture War and in politics often has an unChristian, unloving, unspiritual feel to it. It often has the feel that one sees with fans of the NFL, NHL, and NBA…

Agree totally.

Somewhat might say, “What then are Christians supposed to do? Just let the Liberals win and rule?” Christ himself gave us the thing we are supposed to do. It is called the Great Commission. It is witnessing to individuals one-by-one, giving them knowledge of the glorious Christ who has come and will come again, and bringing them to repentance, baptism, and Church membership. That’s it. Nothing else will work.

If by “work” you mean bring the world to Christ, then yes I agree. But there are other “works” to be done besides bringing people to Christ - such as protecting your neighbor from murder. And witnessing to individuals one-by-one may not “work” for that.

 

[Graubo3]

This is a proposition I have come across from others, though more and more it seems to me be what Jesus Christ teaches and has been teaching since His coming.

In democracy, whatever party or movement (or coalition of such) captures 51% of the vote gets to** impose its will by the FORCE** of law (and police and courts) on the other 49%. Thus, politics and warfare are really virtually the same thing, one just normally being less bloody. I think there is a famous saying that says that “warfare is just politics by other means.”

Thus, in the mass media in the USA, we hear the various propagandists and spokespersons for the two main combatants in the political game condemning each other constantly, and relishing the prospect of capturing POWERFUL political offices and legislatures and Congress, and thereby FORCING a way on those defeated in the political game.

By contrast, in the Gospels and the whole New Testament depict something very different. Jesus never got involved in secular government, and neither did the Apostle Paul, and neither did any of the apostles or disciples. They all invited people to voluntarily believe, repent, and follow Christ. There was no compulsion in religion or spirituality at all, in the New Testament times.

Today, Christians relish the prospect of defeating their enemies (liberals, atheists, socialists) in the political realm. But this lust for power and for the humiliation of enemies in the secular political realm seems to be the very antithesis of the Way of Christ.

Christ is to come in power in His Second Coming, and then he will then use FORCE on this enemies. That is depicted in the Book of Revelation. But until that time, Christians are not meant to force Christianity or virtue or righteousness or Capitalism or libertarianism or lower taxes or marriage laws on anyone. Christians are meant to carry out the Great Commission (preach, convert, and Baptize) and the Great Commandment (love God and neighbor).

I say that “Politics-ism” is a heresy. It is the idea that we can save souls or save the soul of a nation by the Force of Laws backed up by the police, courts, taxing authorities, armies, etc.

I think the Second Vatican Council basically agreed with this view. That Council made a clear and somewhat new declaration of rights of Religious Liberty for all people. That Council made clear that Catholicism should not be forced on anyone, and nor should any religion or atheism be forced on anyone.

Some Jewish people have always opposed Zionism, and some still oppose Zionism, because they see it as trying to achieve in worldly secular terms what only the Messiah can achieve in a spiritual way.

At the very least, I think many in this forum might agree that the desire to defeat, humiliate, and rule over by FORCE our enemies in the Culture War and in politics often has an unChristian, unloving, unspiritual feel to it. It often has the feel that one sees with fans of the NFL, NHL, and NBA. It feels like the soccer hooliganism of Europe. It also often feels like the crowds cheering at the gladiator games in ancient Rome. See what I mean?

Somewhat might say, “What then are Christians supposed to do? Just let the Liberals win and rule?” Christ himself gave us the thing we are supposed to do. It is called the Great Commission. It is witnessing to individuals one-by-one, giving them knowledge of the glorious Christ who has come and will come again, and bringing them to repentance, baptism, and Church membership. That’s it. Nothing else will work. We can win all the elections we want, and but without people **VOLUNTARILY **dedicated to Christ, it will be all for nothing and will all come to dust.

Christ never said that Christians were supposed to rule in this Age, anyway. All He promised the Faithful Ones was persecution, but then Eternal Life in the paradise of Heaven.

Right?

In the Gospels, Jesus Christ never commanded me to bend over for anyone. Bet Timothy Leary would have loved this rant. Maybe even Bill Ayers:shrug:.

 

[InGodWeTrust25]

Love God first, your country right under Him and then everything else. The Liberals right now (as I type this), are trying to make the Catholic church marry same sex couples and accept abortions. This country was built on Religious Freedom. Trying to enforce laws that go against their moral beliefs? That answers your question right there. I don’t know about you, but this is during a time when I pray to Jesus to defeat our enemies.

-Forgiveness, Service & Love-

 

[Dirt]

From His Holiness Pope Leo XIII in the encyclical Diuturnum:
“15. The one only reason which men have for not obeying is when anything is demanded of them which is openly repugnant to the natural or the divine law, for it is equally unlawful to command to do anything in which the law of nature or the will of God is violated. If, therefore, it should happen to any one to be compelled to prefer one or the other, viz., to disregard either the commands of God or those of rulers, he must obey Jesus Christ, who commands us to “give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s,”[18] and must reply courageously after the example of the Apostles: “We ought to obey God rather than men.”[19] And yet there is no reason why those who so behave themselves should be accused of refusing obedience; for, if the will of rulers is opposed to the will and the laws of God, they themselves exceed the bounds of their own power and pervert justice; nor can their authority then be valid, which, when there is no justice, is null.”

Link> papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13civ.htm

There are coming times, when we, just as our predecessors, will have to choose between being members of the state, or being Catholic in every sense of the word. I choose Catholic!

 

[timotheos]

This is a proposition I have come across from others, … Christ never said that Christians were supposed to rule in this Age, anyway. All He promised the Faithful Ones was persecution, but then Eternal Life in the paradise of Heaven.

Right?

In my opinion, you have a pretty decent handle on it. The influence of Christianity is never intended to be centered in mass movements, although it has certainly been mischaracterized as such.