Polka mass

[JPUSC]

Is this whole message board just dominated by one type of Catholic persuasion?

Generally speaking, I would say kind of. You would be best to speak with a faithful priest about questions of a more serious matter.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Well, until the Polka mass is forbidden, it is still permitted. It seems to me like this whole list is just crawling with people who are obsessed with only one form of Catholic worship (guess what) and who seek to disparage anything else that doesn’t fit that standard. The Polka mass is a beautiful way to worship God in the Catholic tradition. If you don’t want to worship that way then don’t. However please don’t try to forbid other people from doing so just because you don’t like that type of mass.

Also, I did not disparage Gregorian chant, I just don’t personally prefer it to the other great works of choral masters that used to be used for the mass before 1903 (on a regular basis). I respect the Churches decision in this matter but don’t feel that I must personally agree and actually force myself to like Gregorian music just because Rome say’s it’s more suited to the mass then the other stuff.

[edited]

Also, I noticed that no one bothered to even answer my initual question on Polka masses? Is this whole message board just dominated by one type of Catholic persuasion?

[edited]

Also, I love the Divine Liturgy, and I go there from time to time (when I don’t have to chant at a Missa Cantata or a Solemn High Mass)…and I also enjoy going to Mass at a local religious order in my area which happens to celebrate the Mass in the Ordinary Form, (albeit ad orientem), but 100% in the vernacular - unless you count the Greek kyrie of course.

Please respond directly to what I have said, as well as what the Church documents have stated [edited].

 

[benedictgal]

Well, until the Polka mass is forbidden, it is still permitted. It seems to me like this whole list is just crawling with people who are obsessed with only one form of Catholic worship (guess what) and who seek to disparage anything else that doesn’t fit that standard. The Polka mass is a beautiful way to worship God in the Catholic tradition. If you don’t want to worship that way then don’t. However please don’t try to forbid other people from doing so just because you don’t like that type of mass.

Also, I did not disparage Gregorian chant, I just don’t personally prefer it to the other great works of choral masters that used to be used for the mass before 1903 (on a regular basis). I respect the Churches decision in this matter but don’t feel that I must personally agree and actually force myself to like Gregorian music just because Rome say’s it’s more suited to the mass then the other stuff.

[edited]

Also, I noticed that no one bothered to even answer my initual question on Polka masses? Is this whole message board just dominated by one type of Catholic persuasion?

You have yet to provide official documentation that an indult exists for this kind of Mass. If such a directory were to exist, you could find it online. Furthermore, if such an thing did exist, would it not be ni the priest’s webpage?

With all due respect, if there is someone making a selective reading of the documents of the Second Vatican Council it is you. Unfortunately, there are many who interpet the spirit of the council while ignoring what the Council and its ensuing documents actually said. That is why Redemptionis Sacramentum and Ecclesia de Mysterio came out and that is why the Motu Propio from Pope Benedict was also released.

I trust Pope Benedict’s interpretation of the official Council documents. He was there and we weren’t.

 

[Leopard]

…just because he celebrated this kind of a service in the presence of Pope John Paul II that does not mean that there is an indult attached to it…

It doesn’t need an indult. It isn’t a different liturgical rite, it’s just the Ordinary Form with a particular style of music.

 

[E.E.N.S]

It doesn’t need an indult. It isn’t a different liturgical rite, it’s just the Ordinary Form with a particular style of music.

Is there a document somewhere that I missed that says ALL types of music may be used without restraint? I ask this seriously, because while I have seen documents saying that “other” types of music may be used (besides Gregorian Chant), but the following language in some of these documents specifically forbade certain types of music/instruments from use within the Roman liturgy. If there is a specific (and complete) lifting of these bans it would make these debates much easier, however, as I have mentioned, I have yet to see this anywhere in official Church documents.

 

[JPUSC]

Is there a document somewhere that I missed that says ALL types of music may be used without restraint? I ask this seriously, because while I have seen documents saying that “other” types of music may be used (besides Gregorian Chant), but the following language in some of these documents specifically forbade certain types of music/instruments from use within the Roman liturgy. If there is a specific (and complete) lifting of these bans it would make these debates much easier, however, as I have mentioned, I have yet to see this anywhere in official Church documents.

I don’t know if this applies to Polka or whatever, but this is what my Vatican II documents book says:

1. In certain countries, especially in mission lands, there are people who have their own musical tradition, and this plays a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason their music should be held in proper esteem and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their religious sense but also in adapting worship to their native genius…

…Other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, in the judgement and with the consent of the competent territorial authority as laid down in Articles 22: 2, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on conditions that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use; that they accord with the dignity of the temple, and that they truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

1. …However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.

 

[Rabbititus]

A lot of parishes in my neck of the woods have a Polka Mass once a year, usually coinciding with the annual parish festival. I attended one a couple years ago and didn’t care for it personally, but could see why others might like it.

I’d say Polka music is probably more prevalent in your typical parish than chant is, and that’s taking into account that most churches have only one Polka Mass per year. It’s easier to get sick of Polka than chant, simply because it is used a great deal more (relatively speaking).

 

[elts1956]

Well, the Polka mass and accompanying music are approved by the Church authorities. The priest who came up with the idea even celebrated mass before Pope John Paul II! I’m sorry if some people are perturbed by the idea of the Polka being used at sacred services but, after all, was not the mass full of operatic type music during the past several centuries, Often times many of the great religious works of men like Mozart and Beethoven were inspired by less then reverent secular compositions. This was even the case for many years up until Pope Pius X moto on Church music in 1903 (a big mistake by my understanding since it also banned women’s voice in choirs).

The Polka mass is just a continuation of these types of secular inspired sacred music. Believe me, it is very reverently done and the music is truly both sacred and inspiring. I see nothing wrong with using sacred music that has a secular root to it, even when performed in the setting of a Latin Mass. How many TLM’s even try to do works by the great composers? Not many. Most just use the same old boring Gregorian chant melodies that one so tires of hearing week after week. I understand that the Church considers this type of stuff as most suited to the mass but is it the only type of music that can be used? For those who hold liturgy sacred, it is the only kind wanted.

Also, why can’t we have a polka Latin mass? Why can’t some budding young composer takes the music of the Gregorian chant and add it to a Polka melody? I’d walk a couple miles to hear that for sure.

We don’t go to Mass to be entertained. [edited] How can anything with a secular root, be sacred?

 

[benedictgal]

Is there a document somewhere that I missed that says ALL types of music may be used without restraint? I ask this seriously, because while I have seen documents saying that “other” types of music may be used (besides Gregorian Chant), but the following language in some of these documents specifically forbade certain types of music/instruments from use within the Roman liturgy. If there is a specific (and complete) lifting of these bans it would make these debates much easier, however, as I have mentioned, I have yet to see this anywhere in official Church documents.

Let’s look at the Chirograph on Sacred Music, written by Pope John Paul II, 20 years after the Polka Mass was “performed for him”:

The Fathers of the Second Vatican Council did not fail to reassert these principles with a view to their application in the changed conditions of the times. They did so specifically in chapter six of the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium. Pope Paul VI then saw that those principles were translated into concrete norms, in particular with the Instruction Musicam Sacram, promulgated on 5 March 1967 with his approval by the Congregation then known as the Sacred Congregation for Rites. In this same context, it is necessary to refer to those principles of conciliar inspiration to encourage a development in conformity with the requirements of liturgical reform and which will measure up to the liturgical and musical tradition of the Church. The text of the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium in which it is declared that the Church “approves of all forms of true art which have the requisite qualities[7], and admits them into divine worship”, finds satisfactory criteria for application in nn. 50-53 of the above-mentioned Instruction Musicam Sacram[8].

1. On various occasions I too have recalled the precious role and great importance of music and song for a more active and intense participation in liturgical celebrations[9].** I have also stressed the need to “purify worship from ugliness of style, from distasteful forms of expression, from uninspired musical texts which are not worthy of the great act that is being celebrated”[10], to guarantee dignity and excellence to liturgical compositions.**

In this perspective, in the light of the Magisterium of St Pius X and my other Predecessors and taking into account in particular the pronouncements of the Second Vatican Council, I would like to re-propose several fundamental principles for this important sector of the life of the Church, with the intention of ensuring that liturgical music corresponds ever more closely to its specific function.

1. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, “sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action”[11]. For this very reason, “not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

In other words, if it does not pass the smell, or, in this case, the “sound” test of Musicam Sacram, let alone the document that Pope St. Pius X wrote, it should not be used.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I don’t know if this applies to Polka or whatever, but this is what my Vatican II documents book says:

Exactly. I don’t see a complete lifting here whatsoever…however IF Polka Music was the “musical tradition” of the USA then this is what the document would be directed towards, however this is not the case.

 

[buffalo]

Not allowed - Polka Masses

 

[benedictgal]

Not allowed - Polka Masses

I posted that a couple of pages ago.

 

[buffalo]

I posted that a couple of pages ago.

Sorry - I missed it.

 

[malphono]

Exactly. I don’t see a complete lifting here whatsoever…however IF Polka Music was the “musical tradition” of the USA then this is what the document would be directed towards, however this is not the case.

Careful here. Someone who wanted to play a game could make an argument that “polka music” is a “musical tradition” in at least parts of the US. Remember the Drew Carey Show (set in Cleveland)? There are other places too: northeastern & western PA, Chicago, southern MI (Hamtramck), parts of NJ (Bayonne), parts of NY (Greenpoint Brooklyn, parts of Orange County, and others) etc.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Careful here. Someone who wanted to play a game could make an argument that “polka music” is a “musical tradition” in at least parts of the US. Remember the Drew Carey Show (set in Cleveland)? There are other places too: northeastern & western PA, Chicago, southern MI (Hamtramck), parts of NJ (Bayonne), parts of NY (Greenpoint Brooklyn, parts of Orange County, and others) etc.

Taken from Wikipedia:

The polka is a lively Central European dance and also a genre of dance music familiar throughout Europe and the Americas. It originated in the middle of the 19th century in the Czech lands and is still a common genre in Swedish, Lithuanian, Czech, Polish, German, Hungarian, Austrian, Russian, Slovenian and Slovakian folk music. In light classical music, many polkas were composed by both Johann Strauss I and his son Johann Strauss II; a couple of well-known ones were composed by Bedřich Smetana, and Jaromír Vejvoda, the author of “Škoda lásky” (“Roll Out the Barrel”).
The name comes from the Czech word půlka – literally, “little half” – a reference to the short half-steps featuring in the dance. The word’s familiar form has been influenced by the similarity to the Czech word polka, meaning “Polish woman”.[1] The name has led to the dance’s origin being sometimes mistakenly attributed to Poland. It should also not be confused with the polska, a Swedish upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Loudspeaker.svg/11px-Loudspeaker.svg.png 3/4-beat (help·info) dance with Polish roots; cf. polka-mazurka. A related dance is the redowa. Polkas almost always have a upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Loudspeaker.svg/11px-Loudspeaker.svg.png 2/4 (help·info) time signature. Popular music has also been parodied several times by Weird Al Yankovic in the style of polka.

I could be wrong here but I think what you are saying is a stretch from what the Holy Father was getting at in Tra le Sollecitundini.

Next, what part of Polka seems fitting for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to you? I ask this seriously, as I fail to see anything sacred in Polka at all, and it bears no semblance to Gregorian Chant at all, and the Church has said repeatedly that the less a music is like Gregorian Chant the less worthy it is for the Roman liturgy.*

---

• Note: I use the word “Roman” here because this obviously does not apply to the Eastern liturgies.

 

[malphono]

Taken from Wikipedia:
I could be wrong here but I think what you are saying is a stretch from what the Holy Father was getting at in Tra le Sollecitundini.

Next, what part of Polka seems fitting for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to you? I ask this seriously, as I fail to see anything sacred in Polka at all, and it bears no semblance to Gregorian Chant at all, and the Church has said repeatedly that the less a music is like Gregorian Chant the less worthy it is for the Roman liturgy.*

---

• Note: I use the word “Roman” here because this obviously does not apply to the Eastern liturgies.

I’m afraid you misunderstood. I’m not in any way, shape or form, a supporter of such things. (Look back at my earlier [post=4954295]post[/post] in this thread.) Polkas belong at a wedding or in a dance hall. So do tarantellas. Belly dances belong in a night club. None is suitable in church.

My intent was simply to point out that there are those who would make the claim. I am certainly not one of them.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I’m afraid you misunderstood. I’m not in any way, shape or form, a supporter of such things. (Look back at my earlier [post=4954295]post[/post] in this thread.) Polkas belong at a wedding or in a dance hall. So do tarantellas. Belly dances belong in a night club. None is suitable in church.

My intent was simply to point out that there are those who would make the claim. I am certainly not one of them.

You are correct. My mistake.

 

[Snerticus]

Careful here. Someone who wanted to play a game could make an argument that “polka music” is a “musical tradition” in at least parts of the US. Remember the Drew Carey Show (set in Cleveland)? There are other places too: northeastern & western PA, Chicago, southern MI (Hamtramck), parts of NJ (Bayonne), parts of NY (Greenpoint Brooklyn, parts of Orange County, and others) etc.

Sorry, I come from NEPA, and from a Polish parish. We have never had a polka mass that I can remember or have heard of recently. We have only had polka sung at our yearly church picnic. The mass was always done reverently with the typical songs that you would hear just about at any church across the country. We never had chant either, much as I probably would have liked it. I think that growing up in that parish has resulted in my longing for very reverent masses, without that popular music that people often “come to church for” (boy that really gets my goat!). I agree in a previous post that we don’t go to mass for entertainment. One could go to a polka party, or christian music concert for that.

That said, I absolutely have no aversion to a special mass having ethnic music done reverently every now and again. But not so much as it to be repetitive or expected.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

To put my two cents in, I enjoy polka music. I play the accordion and bayan (Russian accordion) as well as the organ and know quite a number of Swiss and Russian polkas. I would never even consider, however, performing those in church, during Mass or otherwise. Perhaps the innovator of the polka Mass was trying to appeal to nostalgic Polish (or Czech or Slovak or German) Catholics, but such music was never used at Mass in those countries. At least not until very recently. The polka, like any other type of popular dance music, has secular origins and has no place in liturgical music. I will never allow a polka Mass or any other “theme Mass” to be celebrated in any parish I pastor. The two Great Commandments are to love God and love our neighbor. Our spiritual life needs both worship of God and fellowship with our neighbors, so take the polka band into the parish hall where it can be danced to after Mass.