Poll: Do you think masturbation is a mortal sin?

[Elizabeth502]

Sometimes it is a mortal sin. It is only a mortal sin though when a person has full knowledge of the gravity of the sin, full consent of the will, and the sin itself is grave which it is.

Wow, the devil is amazingly conniving, judging by some responses on this thread. Um, it’s also “only” a mortal sin to commit murder when a person has full knowledge of the gravity of murder and full consent of the will.

This is not directed at Holly, just in general to the responses.

What, someone’s “not sure” what they’re doing when masturbating? Please, folks. “Heat of passion” works for courts of law, but using it to justify the immorality of conscious sinful acts is a bit much. And I don’t buy the age bit. (Whoops, a teenager “doesn’t know what he’s doing”; “can’t control himself,” etc.) And some men in stressful jobs “can’t control” their anger when they get drunk, either (a subject that we’ve also discussed on CAF – though not as frequently as the M word). But that doesn’t make those men less responsible for hitting their wives when they come home drunk. And some spiteful, socially frustrated or jealous women “can’t control” their impulse to gossip about other women, either. (Or, they “must not know what they’re doing.”)

Just the fact that ***an opinion poll ***has been posted regarding it, as if this is subject to opinion, is amazing.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

there is something in the bible about how those who are ignornat are beaten with fewer “stripes” than those not so ignorant…

the interesting thing is, though, that even the ignorant are beaten… (Purgatory, etc…). ignorance is no excuse… its just a mitigating factor or whatever you call it…

I believe you are referring to Luke Chapter 12.
45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ 9 and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, to eat and drink and get drunk,
46 then that servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful.
47 That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

Jesus was talking about the responsibility of stewardship; a) we do not know when the hour will come that our master will return and b) that more will be expected of those who have been given much. The reference to being beaten does seem to refer to purgatory and this makes perfect sense. Even confessing your sin does not remove the residual effect of the sin, nor does ignorance, so some cleansing or purgation would be required regardless.

Don’t know if that helps.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

Wow, the devil is amazingly conniving, judging by some responses on this thread. Um, it’s also “only” a mortal sin to commit murder when a person has full knowledge of the gravity of murder and full consent of the will.

This is not directed at Holly, just in general to the responses.

What, someone’s “not sure” what they’re doing when masturbating? Please, folks. “Heat of passion” works for courts of law, but using it to justify the immorality of conscious sinful acts is a bit much. And I don’t buy the age bit. (Whoops, a teenager “doesn’t know what he’s doing”; “can’t control himself,” etc.) And some men in stressful jobs “can’t control” their anger when they get drunk, either (a subject that we’ve also discussed on CAF – though not as frequently as the M word). But that doesn’t make those men less responsible for hitting their wives when they come home drunk. And some spiteful, socially frustrated or jealous women “can’t control” their impulse to gossip about other women, either. (Or, they “must not know what they’re doing.”)

Just the fact that ***an opinion poll ***has been posted regarding it, as if this is subject to opinion, is amazing.

Absolutely agree. I, too, am concerned and think that a great deal of damage can be done to those reading many of these posts.

Very well said! :tiphat:

 

[Elizabeth502]

Well hopefully this is where a moderator will step in.

(Notice, Fidelis Unus, that there’s a bare plurality of poll voters “agreeing” that it’s always mortally sinful.)

Unbelievable.

Apparently the underlying import of Our Lady’s message is that it is the area of sexuality where the devil is most successful at encouraging us to rationalize on an ongoing & even permanent basis. (Thus, resulting in greater difficulty for the sinner extricating himself from the sin because of the devil’s vigorous efforts at rationalizing the comfortable pleasures of illicit sex.) Lying, stealing, and causing physical harm to others generally doesn’t feel nearly as good as sexual pleasure does.

 

[phoenix3212]

Wow, the devil is amazingly conniving, judging by some responses on this thread. Um, it’s also “only” a mortal sin to commit murder when a person has full knowledge of the gravity of murder and full consent of the will.

This is not directed at Holly, just in general to the responses.

What, someone’s “not sure” what they’re doing when masturbating? Please, folks. “Heat of passion” works for courts of law, but using it to justify the immorality of conscious sinful acts is a bit much. And I don’t buy the age bit. (Whoops, a teenager “doesn’t know what he’s doing”; “can’t control himself,” etc.) And some men in stressful jobs “can’t control” their anger when they get drunk, either (a subject that we’ve also discussed on CAF – though not as frequently as the M word). But that doesn’t make those men less responsible for hitting their wives when they come home drunk. And some spiteful, socially frustrated or jealous women “can’t control” their impulse to gossip about other women, either. (Or, they “must not know what they’re doing.”)

Just the fact that ***an opinion poll ***has been posted regarding it, as if this is subject to opinion, is amazing.

Well hopefully this is where a moderator will step in.

(Notice, Fidelis Unus, that there’s a bare plurality of poll voters “agreeing” that it’s always mortally sinful.)

Unbelievable.

Apparently the underlying import of Our Lady’s message is that it is the area of sexuality where the devil is most successful at encouraging us to rationalize on an ongoing & even permanent basis. (Thus, resulting in greater difficulty for the sinner extricating himself from the sin because of the devil’s vigorous efforts at rationalizing the comfortable pleasures of illicit sex.) Lying, stealing, and causing physical harm to others generally doesn’t feel nearly as good as sexual pleasure does.

I feel in part that some of this is directed towards me and towards my comments. I said that masturbation is sometimes a mortal sin because it is, of course, difficult to judge whether all the factors needed for mortal sin are present in a certain individual.

I am not deviating from Church teaching in any way, shape or form. The Church does not define mortal sin in relation to any single individual. It defines grave matter. There is a slight but important difference between the two. Mortal sin relates to the individual and the impact of a certain action upon the soul; Grave matter relates to whether or not a certain action is seriously and intrinsically evil. Indeed, they are closely interrelated, but my point is that mortal sin and grave matter are not the same thing. If one commits an action that constitutes grave matter with 1) full knowledge of its gravity and 2) full consent, then that individual is guilty of mortal sin. If those other factors are not present, that individual has not sinned mortally.

This is not rationalization. This is keeping with orthodox Church teaching. Indeed, masturbation would be mortally sinful in most circumstances, but saying without qualification that it is “always” mortally sinful in every single circumstance and with every single person displays a dangerous kind of arrogance. Yes, I base my argument on a nuance in Catholic Moral Theology, but remember that it is indeed Catholic moral theology. This is the faith as promulgated by the successors to the apostles. It is not “unbelievable” to assert that there’s some boy out there who’s barely started puberty, and, not knowing at all what he’s doing or the disordered nature of the action, begins to masturbate. Such a person cannot be expected to know immediately that the action he commits is a grave violation of the law of God; However, as he ages and the capacity to associate masturbation with lust increases, the conditions needed for mortal sin do then exist.

Indeed, I recognize that is my words have the potential to be misinterpreted and some may take them to mean that I do not believe masturbation is gravely sinful, but that is not the case at all. I’m not saying to “Go out and get a nervous system disorder so masturbation isn’t mortally sinful in your case.” Instead, I’m saying that we are not to judge the soul; only God has that authority. We therefore cannot judge whether or not something is mortally sinful for a specific individual in a specific case, because if we do we are assuming the place of God and judging the soul. However, we do have the ability judge the intrinsic nature of an action, and indeed masturbation is, as an action, inherently grave.

 

[karoleck]

you are on the mark phoenix3212,I just came accross this today from a newsletter about my Catholic Church in China.The background to this quotation by Pope Benedict XV1 is basically that a certain Bishop there joined The Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association,many in the West have more or less said of him ,that he has committed a Mortal Sin.A priest has defended him and has quoted The Holy Father’s Letter to the Church in China ,this I believe shows how Benetict views such situations(cfr Par.7)"all this should be lived out in communion and in fraternal understanding,avoiding judgements and mutual condemnations—"and “—in order to evaluate the morality of an act it is necessary to devote particular care to establishing the real intentions of the person concerned,in addition to objective shortcoming.Every case,then,will have to be pondered individually,taking account of the circumstances.” end of quote–Judge not and you shall not be judged! I think that you could apply this quotation to the Poll.I ticked “sometimes” but in the end, it is up to each individuals’ fully informed conscience to make this call.My advise is don’t do it.! O most Pure Heart of Mary,make me pure in body and in mind and in heart.Amen,

 

[Middleman]

Hahahaha, yay for non-skewed polls!

What is your favorite ice cream flavor, chocolate or vanilla?
a. Chocolate brownie
b. Chocolate
c. Super fudge extreme
d. I don’t know

Admittedly, the vast majority of responses you’ll find on these forums are going to be represented by the choices you provided, but even so, don’t you think you should provide the full range?

Ha ha, how about this one?

Is President Obama a good president?
a) You betcha, he’s the greatest
b) He’s pretty darned good
c) I like him
d) undecided

 

[FiberZilla]

i will reserve my own statement of opinion on the subject, although some already know from reading my posts…

could you please also state what religion you are and maybe your age, and whether you agree with the Roman Catholic Church’s position on the subject.

thanks.

The Word of God says that the wages of sin is death and that ALL have sinned and fallen short of His glory. Therefore there is nobody among us who is not guilty. Is masturbation a sin? Of course it is, but so is eating too much turkey at Thanksgiving dinner.

Even sins that we might think of as very minor are extremely offensive to God’s holy standard and we all stand guilty before God on judgement day unless we have truly accepted Christ.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The Church does not define mortal sin in relation to any single individual. It defines grave matter.There is a slight but important difference between the two.

Thanks, but I don’t need the theology lesson, as I have an advanced formal education in that.

It’s not the point, not at all. There is not thread after thread on CAF about whether non-sexual sins are mortally sinful, or doing infinite amounts of hair-splitting between mortal sin & grave matter. The reason is obvious. Sexual activity feels good, and is probably the most opportune realm for the devil to situate himself in the psyche, and confirm the sinner in his or her sin. That is entirely the point I and some others have made.

 

[teachccd]

Thanks, but I don’t need the theology lesson, as I have an advanced formal education in that.

Yes, but not everyone on this thread is a theologian as you are.

It’s not the point, not at all. There is not thread after thread on CAF about whether non-sexual sins are mortally sinful, or doing infinite amounts of hair-splitting between mortal sin & grave matter. The reason is obvious. Sexual activity feels good, and is probably the most opportune realm for the devil to situate himself in the psyche, and confirm the sinner in his or her sin. That is entirely the point I and some others have made.

Thread after thread we play judges and try and figure out the judgment of God. The Church explicity reveals grave matter and it is what we do with that that constitutes our complete and eternal separation from God. Yes, rationalization is the devil’s playground but then conscience formation is never fully complete and is forever growing. God knows that more than a bunch of folks on a forum; even those with a formal education… teachccd

 

[Elizabeth502]

Thread after thread we play judges and try and figure out the judgment of God. The Church explicity reveals grave matter and it is what we do with that that constitutes our complete and eternal separation from God. Yes, rationalization is the devil’s playground but then conscience formation is never fully complete and is forever growing. God knows that more than a bunch of folks on a forum; even those with a formal education… teachccd

Wow. That was pretty insulting. I neither said nor implied that I “know more than God knows.” For heaven’s sake, What a response. But despite the need for a fully formed conscience, and how there will always be some newbies at that, or some being re-educated about grave matter, the areas of grave matter (vs. informed conscience, vs. “mortal sin”) are extremely rarely brought up unless the matter is sexual, and particularly solitary activity. Why? Because the temptation is frequent, because there’s no partner (no “other” to hurt, some believe – although that is of course not entirely true), because it feels good.

Actually, the surest, quickest way to asses one’s state of sin is by natural law, which is the foundation of the Church’s own moral theological framework. And what is the first sign of that? The individual’s own conscience – even not ‘fully formed’ yet. Our prototype parents had no institution fully informing them. They reacted viscerally, spontaneously, to their internal, natural promptings: their deep, inner knowledge of their transgression. The clear sign of that internal knowledge was their shame: their hiding from God.

The frequent introduction and re-introduction of this topic over and over, despite there being stickies at the top of the Moral Theology forum, explaining this, is in part a sign to me about the promptings of conscience, and on some threads this has evolved into an obvious attempt to (inappropriately) relieve conscience through elaborate meanderings and academic hair-splitting about intent, knowledge, and information. The way to relieve your conscience is to bring it to confession. Chances are extremely high that you knew what you were doing. That is completely separate from noctural emissions, and most people are very clear about that.

There are not threads after threads about technical discussions about whether it’s OK if I steal my neighbor’s property, and whether it’s “merely” grave matter or “might be” –let’s post an opinion poll–mortal sin. Because unless I was sleepwalking, or at the point of a gun while doing the stealing, it’s not even a question worth introducing.

 

[MikiBee]

Wow, the devil is amazingly conniving, judging by some responses on this thread. Um, it’s also “only” a mortal sin to commit murder when a person has full knowledge of the gravity of murder and full consent of the will.

This is not directed at Holly, just in general to the responses.

What, someone’s “not sure” what they’re doing when masturbating? Please, folks. “Heat of passion” works for courts of law, but using it to justify the immorality of conscious sinful acts is a bit much. And I don’t buy the age bit. (Whoops, a teenager “doesn’t know what he’s doing”; “can’t control himself,” etc.) And some men in stressful jobs “can’t control” their anger when they get drunk, either (a subject that we’ve also discussed on CAF – though not as frequently as the M word). But that doesn’t make those men less responsible for hitting their wives when they come home drunk. And some spiteful, socially frustrated or jealous women “can’t control” their impulse to gossip about other women, either. (Or, they “must not know what they’re doing.”)

Just the fact that ***an opinion poll ***has been posted regarding it, as if this is subject to opinion, is amazing.

You fail to understand something, Elizabeth. I am a cradle Catholic, however, it wasn’t until I was 40 years old that I stumbled upon this site and found out masturbation is a mortal sin. I had no idea all my life. I figured it was harmless… wasn’t cheating on anyone or committing adultery. I viewed it as natural because even babies and small children do this. I saw no moral harm in it whatsoever. Now that I know the Catholic teaching, I feel if I was to engage in this activity I would be commiting a mortal sin, but I don’t believe I was prior to that.

As someone else posted earlier, if it were not for the Catholic Magesterium’s teaching that this is grave matter, I personally would not view it as sinful. It is ONLY because of the teaching that I try to avoid it now.

There are some things that people automatically know is right or wrong. It is engraved on our conscience. We know murder is wrong. We know stealing is wrong. We know because we feel unpleasant after doing so. There is guilt involved regardless of law. However, there is no such moral apprehension of masturbating OUTSIDE of the Catholic teaching that it is sinful.

I am not arguing whether it is a sin, I know it is because the Church says so, but that is the only reason.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I actually think there are at least four things at issue, then, MikiBee:

(1) The extremely poor – or at least extremely uneven, sometimes contradictory – catechesis in the church, parish to parish, over the last 40 years. It certainly explains legitimate questioning about grave matter. The two broad areas most subject to abuse or neglect in catechesis, it seems (judging from my reading, judging from discussions with others) were areas of sexuality and areas of Church regulations (mass attendance, sacramental requirements, etc.). One could probably add liturgy as the third poorly taught area. However, this catechetical situation is hopefully being rapidly repaired – please God – so that the next generation is not similarly poorly informed.

(2) The neglect of spirituality as an aspect of formally taught catechesis. To have a sensitive, appropriately reactive conscience, you not only need intellectual matter, you need spiritual matter: you need to be open to God’s word for you, the individual. You need opportunities for frequent prayer & reflection, you need to be shown why these are essential in the knowledge of your faith, the practice of your faith, and in your battle against personal sin. If you’re not “properly disposed,” you won’t hear the instruction well when it’s given to you. More importantly, if you’re not properly disposed, you won’t hear the genuine rustlings of an unsettling conscience.

(3) The radically reduced opportunities for confession in the last 40 years, which now appears in many areas to be reversing itself – praise God. When you go to confession often, your conscience is illumined with increasingly brighter vision, so that even your venial sins appear, along with your mortal ones, to be “as scarlet” (as the Psalmist says). It becomes progressively easier to sense, see, feel – immediately – when you have sinned.

(4) The use of CAF as a substitute or trial confessional for many posters. Worse, the use of CAF as an avoidance of confession by searching for, and ultimately locating, posters who allow the individual to rationalize the sin even further. I think that’s what at least one poster on this very thread meant by “harm caused to others.”

 

[Elizabeth502]

I should correct myself in Post 49. It doesn’t get clearer than God himself informing you, so despite Adam & Eve’s lack of a convenient institution, they inconveniently had God as their informant.

 

[TedDC]

Wow. That was pretty insulting. I neither said nor implied that I “know more than God knows.” For heaven’s sake, What a response. But despite the need for a fully formed conscience, and how there will always be some newbies at that, or some being re-educated about grave matter, the areas of grave matter (vs. informed conscience, vs. “mortal sin”) are extremely rarely brought up unless the matter is sexual, and particularly solitary activity. Why? Because the temptation is frequent, because there’s no partner (no “other” to hurt, some believe – although that is of course not entirely true), because it feels good.

Actually, the surest, quickest way to asses one’s state of sin is by natural law, which is the foundation of the Church’s own moral theological framework. And what is the first sign of that? The individual’s own conscience – even not ‘fully formed’ yet. Our prototype parents had no institution fully informing them. They reacted viscerally, spontaneously, to their internal, natural promptings: their deep, inner knowledge of their transgression. The clear sign of that internal knowledge was their shame: their hiding from God.

The frequent introduction and re-introduction of this topic over and over, despite there being stickies at the top of the Moral Theology forum, explaining this, is in part a sign to me about the promptings of conscience, and on some threads this has evolved into an obvious attempt to (inappropriately) relieve conscience through elaborate meanderings and academic hair-splitting about intent, knowledge, and information. The way to relieve your conscience is to bring it to confession. Chances are extremely high that you knew what you were doing. That is completely separate from noctural emissions, and most people are very clear about that.

There are not threads after threads about technical discussions about whether it’s OK if I steal my neighbor’s property, and whether it’s “merely” grave matter or “might be” –let’s post an opinion poll–mortal sin. Because unless I was sleepwalking, or at the point of a gun while doing the stealing, it’s not even a question worth introducing.

I would not presume that frequent questioning on this topic is a sign of an “…attempt to (inappropriately) relieve conscience…”. I’m interested in it because, unlike many other sins such as lying and stealing, the “sinfulness” of masturbation derives wholly from the fact that it violates a rule - an artificial construct - rather than from any intrinsic harm the practice causes to oneself or others. I would ask why, for example, is tobacco smoking is not seen as a matter of at least equal gravity, since it does cause demonstrable harm and is clearly a misuse of a bodily function.

 

[Karmartia]

I would not presume that frequent questioning on this topic is a sign of an “…attempt to (inappropriately) relieve conscience…”. I’m interested in it because, unlike many other sins such as lying and stealing, the “sinfulness” of masturbation derives wholly from the fact that it violates a rule - an artificial construct - rather than from any intrinsic harm the practice causes to oneself or others. I would ask why, for example, is tobacco smoking is not seen as a matter of at least equal gravity, since it does cause demonstrable harm and is clearly a misuse of a bodily function.

I disagree that masturbation isn’t harmful in itself. It is personally demeaning for one thing, as it contributes to the general dissolution of the soul like any intemperate behavior. But the sin of masturbation goes much deeper than something like having an occasional drink because alcohol has it’s place and purpose in human society, whereas masturbation is completely animalistic. Masturbation can also become an addiction and as such it can be harmful to others, contributing to the breakdown of relationships through suspicion and guilt. Furthermore, the entire porn industry is built on the presumed harmlessness of it. Yes, there are mitigating factors but it is always and forever a grave matter.

I would agree with you that tobacco smoking ought to be considered a more serious sin, but that is for the Church to decide, and the fact that smoking isn’t considered as serious doesn’t reduce the gravity of masturbation.

 

[TedDC]

I disagree that masturbation isn’t harmful in itself. It is personally demeaning for one thing, as it contributes to the general dissolution of the soul like any intemperate behavior. But the sin of masturbation goes much deeper than something like having an occasional drink because alcohol has it’s place and purpose in human society, whereas masturbation is completely animalistic. Masturbation can also become an addiction and as such it can be harmful to others, contributing to the breakdown of relationships through suspicion and guilt. Furthermore, the entire porn industry is built on the presumed harmlessness of it. Yes, there are mitigating factors but it is always and forever a grave matter.

I would agree with you that tobacco smoking ought to be considered a more serious sin, but that is for the Church to decide, and the fact that smoking isn’t considered as serious doesn’t reduce the gravity of masturbation.

Of course, just about anything can be harmful if done to excess, or in the wrong circumstances. But for a single person not involved in a relationship, occasional masturbation is quite harmless. Do you have some evidence to the contrary? And what do you mean by “animalistic” in this context?

Regarding alcohol, aren’t you making the same argument that has been soundly rejected regarding masturbation: “everyone does it, so it’s OK”? Certainly alcohol causes more harm than masturbation; even one drink impairs judgment to some extent, leaving a person more susceptible to committing serious wrongs. And drinking is objectively more unnatural than masturbation, as it involves ingesting a manufactured substance with the intent of altering the operation of one’s brain.

As for the Church’s acceptance of smoking and drinking but not masturbation - that’s not much of an answer, unless you’re willing to let an organization do your thinking for you!

 

[Karmartia]

Of course, just about anything can be harmful if done to excess, or in the wrong circumstances. But for a single person not involved in a relationship, occasional masturbation is quite harmless. Do you have some evidence to the contrary? And what do you mean by “animalistic” in this context?

Regarding alcohol, aren’t you making the same argument that has been soundly rejected regarding masturbation: “everyone does it, so it’s OK”? Certainly alcohol causes more harm than masturbation; even one drink impairs judgment to some extent, leaving a person more susceptible to committing serious wrongs. And drinking is objectively more unnatural than masturbation, as it involves ingesting a manufactured substance with the intent of altering the operation of one’s brain.

As for the Church’s acceptance of smoking and drinking but not masturbation - that’s not much of an answer, unless you’re willing to let an organization do your thinking for you!

Masturbation probably causes no physical harm, although I am aware of certain practices of auto-erotica than can be lethal. I suppose some people do masturbate only occasionally, and maybe they can justify it by saying that they have to get some kind of release or they’ll just go crazy. But don’t you have to at least fantasize to masturbate, or use some kind of visual aid, or some tool, perhaps? How is this a release? Seems like a trap to me, the kind an animal might absent-mindedly fall right into. But the animal has an excuse; it can’t help itself. Human beings are spiritual as well as physical beings, with emphasis on the spiritual.

As far as drinking goes, I am not making the same argument. If all a person did was drink to get drunk than obviously that would be a problem. Nobody masturbates ceremoniously or to break the ice, they do it to have an orgasm.

I do not let the Church do my thinking for me, but in matters of faith and morals I defer to Her better judgement.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I would not presume that frequent questioning on this topic is a sign of an “…attempt to (inappropriately) relieve conscience…”. I’m interested in it because, unlike many other sins such as lying and stealing, the “sinfulness” of masturbation derives wholly from the fact that it violates a rule - an artificial construct - rather than from any intrinsic harm the practice causes to oneself or others. I would ask why, for example, is tobacco smoking is not seen as a matter of at least equal gravity, since it does cause demonstrable harm and is clearly a misuse of a bodily function.

Thank you for responding. I was not referring necessarily to you in particular. I don’t follow your posting habits (nor others’ for that matter). It’s just been obvious over time that various posters come onto the Moral Theology or L&S forum, transparently seeking approval or excuses. When someone explains it’s a sin, and why the Catholic Church, of which that poster is a practicing member, declares it a sin (and the reasoning behind that) the poster begins to argue/rationalize/seek a loophole in the information provided. Mind you, the OP in these cases is not asking (supposedly) for subjective opinions, but rather for the authoritative information.

Once a theoretical loophole is discovered (like grave matter vs. consent or knowledge), the poster seizes on that and begins to justify the behavior & backtrack over himself. Well, the poster has just been provided knowledge (frankly, usually he already has it & admits it); the behavior qualifies as grave matter; and unless he was asleep – which certainly qualifies as not conscious, not consenting – then in fact the OP (or other inquiring poster) has consented & has thus committed a mortal sin in the eyes of the Church, which was the original question. The question was not what your opinion is, nor what my opinion is, nor how creative the poster can be, but what is stated in the CCC as objectively wrong.

Now, have there been posters where the element of knowledge has not been present? I’m sure there have been; they have innocently posted & there’s surely nothing wrong with that; that’s what forums are for. Forums are also for venting to a great extent. I think some posters have wanted to vent about this topic as well. But that is a very different thing than using a religious forum to justify (self-deceive) about sins about which we’ve been provided abundant information.

Let’s put it another way: I don’t remember when, if ever, a poster has opened a thread about this while stating that he or she rarely has problems with the activity. The subject is virtually always initiated by somebody with an ingrained habit which is trapping him, and rather than seek escape through the graces & resulting peace & strength provided by confession, he seeks escape intellectually, thus further justifying his habit to himself & remaining practically, morally, and spiritually trapped.

 

[TedDC]

Thank you for responding. I was not referring necessarily to you in particular. I don’t follow your posting habits (nor others’ for that matter). It’s just been obvious over time that various posters come onto the Moral Theology or L&S forum, transparently seeking approval or excuses. When someone explains it’s a sin, and why the Catholic Church, of which that poster is a practicing member, declares it a sin (and the reasoning behind that) the poster begins to argue/rationalize/seek a loophole in the information provided. Mind you, the OP in these cases is not asking (supposedly) for subjective opinions, but rather for the authoritative information.

Once a theoretical loophole is discovered (like grave matter vs. consent or knowledge), the poster seizes on that and begins to justify the behavior & backtrack over himself. Well, the poster has just been provided knowledge (frankly, usually he already has it & admits it); the behavior qualifies as grave matter; and unless he was asleep – which certainly qualifies as not conscious, not consenting – then in fact the OP (or other inquiring poster) has consented & has thus committed a mortal sin in the eyes of the Church, which was the original question. The question was not what your opinion is, nor what my opinion is, nor how creative the poster can be, but what is stated in the CCC as objectively wrong.

Now, have there been posters where the element of knowledge has not been present? I’m sure there have been; they have innocently posted & there’s surely nothing wrong with that; that’s what forums are for. Forums are also for venting to a great extent. I think some posters have wanted to vent about this topic as well. But that is a very different thing than using a religious forum to justify (self-deceive) about sins about which we’ve been provided abundant information.

Let’s put it another way: I don’t remember when, if ever, a poster has opened a thread about this while stating that he or she rarely has problems with the activity. The subject is virtually always initiated by somebody with an ingrained habit which is trapping him, and rather than seek escape through the graces & resulting peace & strength provided by confession, he seeks escape intellectually, thus further justifying his habit to himself & remaining practically, morally, and spiritually trapped.

Yes, thanks, I understand. And I do agree that it’s wrong to use a forum like this to seek a loophole, excuse or legalistic justification to continue doing something that one knows is wrong.

That’s why I take care to be entirely up-front in stating my rejection of the Church’s teaching that masturbation destroys one’s relationship with God. My view is that the teaching, and the explanations of it that I’ve read, defies logic and reason. I’m not looking for anyone to tell me how I can do it and avoid being guilty of sin. I realize fully that the Church has declared the practice to be a sin; I simply do not believe that it’s immoral.