Poll: Gift of praying in tongues

[plan19]

I did want to see where people stand on this, that was the main purpose of this thread. However, there seems to be alot of accusations flying here and honestly, I can’t really fathom how people have yet to realize the the Catholic Church approves what we do in the Charismatic Renewal!

Odd, how this becomes a moving target. The usual suspects have been trotted out, and, in turn, shooed away.

Now we invoke Church politics as a reason to accept babble.

Let me save you the trouble… “Because it is allowed to exist” is not a valid excuse.

We expect that children will misbehave and prove a distraction. That does not mean we condone this behavior in adulthood.

Has the Holy Father presided over any mass in gibberish? No. Has he attended any masses in gibberish? No.

Do you have ANY proof that gibberish is the “gift of tongues”? No. Now you fall back on church politics to support your position. Do you understand that this behavior is what we call bargaining?

I know what you’re going through. It’s called the Five Stages of Grief.

They are:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Next is depression.

I can tell you WHY the Vatican allows the Charasmatic movement to exist: it’s a gateway. It’s a link between pentecostals and baptists and evangelicals… Pope John Paul II was huge on interfaith cooperation and conversation. We as Catholics are huge on interfaith cooperation and conversation.

We once allowed, and endorsed, a Hindu ritual at the Fatima Shrine. Doesn’t mean that Hinduism is a valid religion. What it means is that if it brings more people to the table so that we might get our hands on them… then it’s all gravy.

There’s the other thing: the revival sent a message that it’s okay to get excited about our faith… that it’s not necessarily a somber thing.

But nowhere… nowhere will you find any letter or documentation within the RCC praising gibberish.

What you have here… is a gesture. “We welcome you into our home with the understanding that if we strip your silliness away from you, that you won’t enter any home. So we will allow it and be patient while we happily welcome your enthusiasm and excitement… and wait for you to outgrow the gibberish.”

So your new argument will go unanswered, because it is foolish. You cannot find a single documented instance of any saint speaking in gibberish (because there is none). We have used the historical record as a lens through which we can view scripture… and we see that tongues, even if we ignore the known definitions… are languages.

By the way… Just for your edification… the word used in Genesis is לשון and the word used in 1 Corinthians is γλῶσσα.
Genesis: לשון :
tongue

1. tongue (of men)
   1. tongue (literal)
   2. tongue (organ of speech)
2. language
3. tongue (of animals)
4. tongue (of fire)
5. wedge, bay of sea (tongue-shaped)

1 Corinthians:
γλῶσσα:

1. the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2. a tongue
   1. the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

This is a challenge to your humility: When you are faced with something that is hard to accept, will you still follow the guidance of our Church? That is real humility to give up your own thoughts like that and I commend anyone who follows the church in such a way.

Please do not fight against what the church endorses, you may just find yourself fighting against God.

Quite the contrary, my friend.

This is a challenge to your humility.

Let’s go back to the source… the Bible.

Choice quotes:

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But test everything, hold fast what is good, abstain from every form of evil.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Hebrews 13:8-9 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings; for it is well that the heart be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited their adherents.
2Peter 1:5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Charlotte408]

uuuuuuuuuummm honey-

I think you should re-read my posts. All of them. I never called you Satan. I never said all people who spoke in tongues were Satan.

and plan19 GREAT POST!!!

 

[Monica4316]

Of course I agree that we should not seek a gift for some spiritual high, that would be to put the gifts above the Giver, like making God some kind of Santa Claus, whom we just go to when we need something. No, God wants our personal relationship with Him more than anything else. But St. Paul does say to seek the spiritual gifts:

“You must want love more than anything else, but still hope for the spiritual gifts as well, especially prophecy.” 1 Cor 14:1

I find that reconciling how St. Paul say to desire the gifts only makes sense when the gifts are put into their proper perspective: namely to build oneself up in Christ and to build up the Church.

sure, I agree with that!

of course you can go to heaven without ever having spoken in tongues no issue there!

haha…that’s good, I’d be pretty sad if it were otherwise cause most people don’t speak in tongues!

What I have learned about demonic cases of tongues is that they are very very noticably terrible sounding. I am talking angry and violent. This is not the same thing as loud / volume. I am talking about a very noticable violence in their sound. I have never heard them before though, I have just heard about them. Not at all what Catholic Cahrismatics pray like and I have never even heard it from protestants.

peace sister!

that makes sense!

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

What you have here… is a gesture. “We welcome you into our home with the understanding that if we strip your silliness away from you, that you won’t enter any home. So we will allow it and be patient while we happily welcome your enthusiasm and excitement… and wait for you to outgrow the gibberish.”

Hi Plan, I guess what I’m wondering is, - how do you know this is how it is? is there any evidence, anything in what the Church has said, to support it?

btw I’m speaking as a person who’s still researching this stuff… not as a charismatic.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But test everything, hold fast what is good, abstain from every form of evil.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Hebrews 13:8-9 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings; for it is well that the heart be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited their adherents.
2Peter 1:5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

this is all well and good, and true, but what if charismatics do “test everything” and don’t see speaking in tongues as a “strange teaching”? the ones I know also love God and strive after virtue and holiness… like other devout Catholics

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Charlotte408,

you said this and I apologize if I misunderstand, but you said:

"IF this does happen (satan or some evil spirit intervening) and the CC accepts the babbling…well isnt that the sign of the end of times?

Satan enters the church…"

isn’t this assuming that the way that we pray in tongues in the CCR is demonic? I may be mis-reading you here and I apologize if I am.

plan16,

please check out this video where it shows Pope John Paul II with us as we pray in tongues. He knows that we pray this way and has never told us that it was wrong. it happens half way through the video.

youtube.com/watch?v=J-QDOcDGDWA

I don’t agree with you that the church works that way when it sees something wrong that is spreading throughout the whole church. Think of all the strong statements the church has given to groups such as SSPX, Neo-catechumen movement, Legionaries of Christ, etc. The Church does not allow false teachings in communities, let alone demonic ones!

Plan16, the Church stands up for the truth. Why do you think they would be willing to “offend” all of those other groups by correcting them and not us? We have been praying this way for over 40 years.

 

[plan19]

Hi Plan, I guess what I’m wondering is, - how do you know this is how it is? is there any evidence, anything in what the Church has said, to support it?

I know this from the volume of reading I have done.

What I will tell you, Monica, is this: We have in our church an organization whose job it is to answer questions such as this. It’s called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

You can write them letters… and they will answer them.

I suggest asking the following question:

“What is the church’s teaching on the meaning of the word ‘tongues’? Can I take this as to mean valid, legitimate language… or can this also include incoherent babbling?”

this is all well and good, and true, but what if charismatics do “test everything” and don’t see speaking in tongues as a “strange teaching”? the ones I know also love God and strive after virtue and holiness… like other devout Catholics

It’s not about personal perception, Monica. It’s about truth.

That’s what it’s about. You find this out by reading, and researching.

It’s when we sway away from the church’s teachings that we get in trouble.

Has any charismatic yet been able to provide a SINGLE bit of evidence that a saint spoke in gibberish? No? Do you maybe think it’s appropriate to wonder why that is?

 

[sauce]

Where’s Sarah Palin when you need her?

Whoops, she’s gone Rogue.

Keep going Flame of Christ. It’s the Giver who counts.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

We just can’t approach this like protestants guys. They do not submit to the guidance of the Church. They use reason, scripture and whatever else they want to not agree with the Catholic Church.

I challenge anyone to aks themseles, after reading the statements by our Popes and Bishops: Who in this thread is speaking with the church and who is speaking against the church in regards to supporting us in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal?

you may have many reasons to not agree, but the fact is “you do not agree!”

 

[plan19]

please check out this video where it shows Pope John Paul II with us as we pray in tongues. He knows that we pray this way and has never told us that it was wrong. it happens half way through the video.

You mean at 5:01? So sorry… valid language. Not gibberish.

You’re still bargaining.

 

[plan19]

We just can’t approach this like protestants guys. They do not submit to the guidance of the Church. They use reason, scripture and whatever else they want to not agree with the Catholic Church.

I challenge anyone to aks themseles, after reading the statements by our Popes and Bishops: Who in this thread is speaking with the church and who is speaking against the church in regards to supporting us in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal?

you may have many reasons to not agree, but the fact is “you do not agree!”

Again… not answering your challenge as it is foolish.

Find one single example… EVER to support that gibberish = tongues.

It doesn’t exist.

I’m still waiting for your evidence regarding St. Francis.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

okay I have saving this for a time such as this, lol.

So if you don’t accept that the church supports us in how we pray (even though that should be enough for you), what about this expereince of St. Teresa of Avila and her admonition about it afterwards?

From The Interior Castle, mansion 6

"In the midst of these experiences that are both painful and delightful together, our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand. What I’m saying seems like gibberish, but certainly the experience takes place in this way, for the joy is so excessive the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul praise our Lord. All its activity is directed to this praise. Oh, how many festivals and demonstrations of the soul would organize, if it could, that all might know its joy! The devil cannot give this experience, because there is so much interior joy in the very intimate part of the soul and so much peace; and all the happiness stirs the soul to the praises of God.

If only God would give it to us all. And what a favor He has granted you by bringing you to this house where, when the Lord gives you this favor and you tell others about it, you will receive help rather than the criticism you would receive in the world."

notice anything similar about this and tongues? especially where she says it seems like gibberish…

You might wonder if the church used this to discern whether or not they would allow us to pray in tongues like we do.

 

[Monica4316]

I know this from the volume of reading I have done.

What I will tell you, Monica, is this: We have in our church an organization whose job it is to answer questions such as this. It’s called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

You can write them letters… and they will answer them.

I suggest asking the following question:

“What is the church’s teaching on the meaning of the word ‘tongues’? Can I take this as to mean valid, legitimate language… or can this also include incoherent babbling?”

It’s not about personal perception, Monica. It’s about truth.

That’s what it’s about. You find this out by reading, and researching.

It’s when we sway away from the church’s teachings that we get in trouble.

Has any charismatic yet been able to provide a SINGLE bit of evidence that a saint spoke in gibberish? No? Do you maybe think it’s appropriate to wonder why that is?

I never said it’s about personal perception…I’m very much dedicated to what the Church teaches

have you written to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith? If you had, and they wrote back, can you share what they said?

what I’ve read from the CCR movement is that they believe tongues can also be another language… as well as unknown words

(I think it’s rather uncharitable to call it ‘babbling’/gibberish? even if you don’t believe)

as for Saints… anyone have any info? (OPEN QUESTION)

God bless

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

You mean at 5:01? So sorry… valid language. Not gibberish.

You’re still bargaining.

cmon bro, don’t be biased. I didn’t say at 5:01, I sad about halfway through the video. Cmon, that’s a little childish. Check it out, watch the video, and it will help you to understand.

I didn’t always believe in tongues either ya know, God has done miracles for me.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

as for Saints… anyone have any info? (OPEN QUESTION)

I just posted my secret weapon in this discussion in post #91! lol you hafta cheer up guys. God bless you all.

 

[Charlotte408]

I agree that the church is willing to accept it as a tool to bring people closer to it.

Two popes have acknowledged the movement: Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II. Pope John Paul II stated that the movement was integral to the renewal of the entire Catholic Church. Pope John Paul II (as well as then Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI) acknowledged good aspects of the movement while urging caution, pointing out members must maintain their link to the Catholic Church

Also, I watched the video and the Pope himself does not speak in tongues. I have no issue over him presiding over prayer and wishing ‘long life’ to Christ’s believers.

 

[Monica4316]

From The Interior Castle, mansion 6

"In the midst of these experiences that are both painful and delightful together, our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand. What I’m saying seems like gibberish, but certainly the experience takes place in this way, for the joy is so excessive the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul praise our Lord. All its activity is directed to this praise. Oh, how many festivals and demonstrations of the soul would organize, if it could, that all might know its joy! The devil cannot give this experience, because there is so much interior joy in the very intimate part of the soul and so much peace; and all the happiness stirs the soul to the praises of God.

If only God would give it to us all. And what a favor He has granted you by bringing you to this house where, when the Lord gives you this favor and you tell others about it, you will receive help rather than the criticism you would receive in the world."

hmm that’s pretty cool!

Okay I have an idea

why dont’ we all ask St Teresa of Avila for her intercession

the part that made me think is how she said: “what I’m SAYING seems like gibberish” - meaning that - this was a vocal prayer, not a mental prayer.

 

[Monica4316]

I agree that the church is willing to accept it as a tool to bring people closer to it.

Two popes have acknowledged the movement: Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II. Pope John Paul II stated that the movement was integral to the renewal of the entire Catholic Church. Pope John Paul II (as well as then Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI) acknowledged good aspects of the movement while urging caution, pointing out members must maintain their link to the Catholic Church

Also, I watched the video and the Pope himself does not speak in tongues. I have no issue over him presiding over prayer and wishing ‘long life’ to Christ’s believers.

I think the reason he said we must maintain our link to the Catholic Church, is because there are charismatic Protestants too, and sometimes Catholics start going to their churches because they like the charismatic part

maybe he’s also telling us to make sure our beliefs always stay Catholic and we don’t start believing any wrong doctrines

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

hmm that’s pretty cool!

Okay I have an idea

why dont’ we all ask St Teresa of Avila for her intercession

the part that made me think is how she said: “what I’m SAYING seems like gibberish” - meaning that - this was a vocal prayer, not a mental prayer.

I agree, we need to pray and ask for guidance.

but just note how she says “it seems like gibberish, but certainly the expereince takes place in this way.”

in other words, that is what this prayer is like!

 

[plan19]

cmon bro, don’t be biased. I didn’t say at 5:01, I sad about halfway through the video. Cmon, that’s a little childish. Check it out, watch the video, and it will help you to understand.

I didn’t always believe in tongues either ya know, God has done miracles for me.

Closest thing I could find to your claim of tongues. Where, exactly, in the video are people speaking in gibberish?

 

[Charlotte408]

sigh

she could very well also mean that her description of certain events may sound like jibberish…because shes rambling on about all this joy, etc etc…