Poll: Gift of praying in tongues

[TOP]

I just received a word from the Lord for us: “Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do the will of God.”

Let us follow God always, doing His will for our lives. The church is our guidance to know God’s will by the way.

How come this response to questions isn’t surprising?

 

[Charlotte408]

*Give it a chance *plan16, you might be pleasantly surprised with the CCR and the gift of tongues.

You sound like your selling this…that worries me.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

You sound like your selling this…that worries me.

What if I was encouraging someone to pray the rosary, wouldn’t that be okay though? I want to share this blessing with others. Are you accusing me of something?

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

God bless each and every one of you. I love you in Jesus and I hope that we won’t be mean to each other, but that the Holy Spirit might fill us full of love and kindness towards one another.

Would if you found out that I was actually trying to help you receive a great blessing? Could the Popes and Bishops be right in encouraging people to open themselves up to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal? I believe that they are and I am being ill treated for that! If I were speaking against the Church that would be one thing but, I am endorsing what the church has said: Be blessed by the Catholic Charismatic Renewal! (we pray in tongues btw).

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

With regard to what the Congragation of the Doctrine of the Faith says about this, I would turn to it’s very humble head. That is Cardinal William Levada. The reason why I bring him up is because He was once our archbishop here is San Francisco and he actually confirmed me (Praise God). He was a friend of the Charismatic Renewal here in our city and even wrote an article about CCR that we have on our website.

He mentions tongues in the second paragraph and I pray that as you read this in its context, you will find that he is very positive. There is not a hint of any problem he has with the gift at all. And this man is the head of the congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Pope Benedict’s previous position).

sfspirit.com/renewal-history.html

Don’t we have the support of the Church regarding tongues? from this I would say yes, and that we still do now.

 

[plan19]

Would if you found out that I was actually trying to help you receive a great blessing?

Again: prove that you are not advocating the commission of a great wrong.

Could the Popes and Bishops be right in encouraging people to open themselves up to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal?

My problem is not with the response to the call for a “new Pentecost”. I think it’s great, and I’ve visited this before… in yet another of my previous posts that you ignored because it was inconvenient.

My problem is not with the concept of tongues. There is a historical record of individuals given the power to speak and/or understand foreign languages spontaneously.

My problem is that you encourage people to partake in babbling gibberish under the auspice of “talking directly to God”.

The idea that gibberish = tongues… is a falsehood. Like all falsehoods, it must be burned in the fire of truth.

When challenged to provide any evidence that anybody should partake in your version of “tongues”… you consistently sidestepped them and, in turn, posed challenges of your own. Challenges, in which, I have done you a courtesy you would not grant me: by answering them.

I believe that they are and I am being ill treated for that!

Nobody has treated you poorly.

By the way… this officially moves you to the fourth stage.
The Five Stages of Grieving

• Denial
• Anger
• Bargaining
• … and now, finally, depression.

Only one left is acceptance.

If I were speaking against the Church that would be one thing but, I am endorsing what the church has said

Again: this is untrue. The church has never equivocated tongues to gibberish. Neither did Scripture. Only once did you provide any church-related documents claiming anything of the sort, and that was a really BAD translation of Interior Castle.

Please, Flame. Stop while you are ahead. Do not seek to corrupt others before you find out for yourself that this thing you so desperately advise others to partake in… actually comes from God.

Because as it stands right now… you’ve been unable to provide any evidence at all to support it.

Please, Flame. Do not take this as an affront. I admire your tenacity… I’m just trying to help you better understand something that you are very confused about.

 

[plan19]

With regard to what the Congragation of the Doctrine of the Faith says about this, I would turn to it’s very humble head. That is Cardinal William Levada. The reason why I bring him up is because He was once our archbishop here is San Francisco and he actually confirmed me (Praise God). He was a friend of the Charismatic Renewal here in our city and even wrote an article about CCR that we have on our website.

He mentions tongues in the second paragraph and I pray that as you read this in its context, you will find that he is very positive. There is not a hint of any problem he has with the gift at all. And this man is the head of the congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Pope Benedict’s previous position).

sfspirit.com/renewal-history.html

Don’t we have the support of the Church regarding tongues? from this I would say yes, and that we still do now.

Let me help you: CDF decisions are available via the Vatican. There is no need for third-party sites.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/index.htm

Also: nobody is arguing that the gift of tongues is nonexistent. What we’re arguing is that tongues=languages… not senseless babbling.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Plan16,

with the grace of God, I plan to continue to encourage people to join the Charismatic Renewal as the Catholic Church calls it “a grace for the church.” I know how much it has changed my life, praise to God! and I want to help others in the same way. That is why I am doing this. I hope that you can understand that. But you have to understand, if the Catholic Church supports the CCR, they must know that when people join us, they will be encouraged to pray in tongues. This is undeniable and this is one the things that we do in the CCR. The Church knows this and they support us. Can you imagine, they actually want you to be open to the graces found in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

here is the answer to what praying in a language that nobody knows would be like:

St. Augustine stated: “What does it mean to sing in jubilation? It means to realize that you cannot express in words what our heart is singing. People who are singing…who have begun to exult with joy in the words of a song, as if filled with such great joy that they can no longer express it in words, leave off the syllables of words and go into the sound of jubilation. For jubilation is a sound which signifies that the heart is giving utterance to what it cannot say in words. And for who is such jubilation fitting if not for the ineffable God? For he is ineffable whom one cannot express in words; and if you cannot express Him in words, and yet you cannot remain silent either, then what is left but to sing in jubilation, so that your heart may rejoice without words, and your unbounded joy may not be confined by the limits of syllables.” (On Psalm 32, Enarrationes in Psalmos, 32, ii, Sermo 1: 8) 74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:icnXTzJDcZQJ:www.fsucatholic.org/theresource/e-tools/A%2520Short%2520Introduction%2520to%2520the%2520Catholic%2520Charismatic%2520Renewal_text.htm.doc+st.+augustine+jubilation&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Connected to this is my attempt to answer what we were talking about earlier with regard to St. Francis. He was known to sing in the Spirit. In his time it was also called “jubilation.”

here is what I found regarding this:

In the Middle Ages men of the Church and others recognized the charism gift of speaking in tongues as having the characteristics mainly of xenolalia and jubilation. It was believed the gift principally helped to preach to people in foreign languages. St. Romuald, founder of the Camaldolese monks, is said to have received the “tongues of angels” before he died. The gift is mentioned in the writings and teaching of St. Bernard of Clairvaux, the founder of the Cistercian Order. Also, it was in the Franciscan Order as the jubilation possessed by St. Francis. The latter is commentated upon by Eddie Ensley in his Sounds of Wonder, (New York, Paulist Press, 1977). “in early Franciscan literature actual sounds of certain jubilations are written out, and these descriptions are strikingly similar to descriptions of modern day glossolalia of the Charismatic Renewal.”
themystica.com/mystica/articles/c/charismatics_the.html

at the end there, notice how this prayer of jubilation was able to be written out on paper. The point to this is that there was such a prayer, a prayer that has no meaning in any known language, called jubilation that was spoken out loud and could be written down.

That is not a language that anyone knows. But you can hear it sung aloud. That is what I would call a prayer language. We do the very same thing with tongues!

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

by the way, I’m not depressed, so praise God!

 

[Charlotte408]

I think it depends on how it’s done and why they’re doing it… I think that if it’s done in church, it should be the way St Paul described. But if a person is just praying, say alone in their room, then of course the rules are no longer applicable

Do you understand what you just wrote? If its done in a church, it should be the way St. Paul described, but if a person is just praying, ALONE, then the rules are no longer applicable??? Did you read the rules? It SHOULD be done 1, 2, persons … or 3 with an interpreter…so if they are at home alone, the rules are not only APPLICABLE, but being followed!

there are also times like during praise and worship where people start praying out loud and pray in tongues (have seen it happen)

So have I…doesnt mean its supposed to happen like that…I’d think a gift so special wouldnt be given to just anyone or so many people, funny thing is theres a church downtown my girl went to, and there were like 6 people all talking in tongues…and apparently, theres even a whole movement, of who knows how many people talking in tongues…hey it could be the hottest new trend…

what is it? (the Church’s teachings on ‘babblings’)
I think when Christ said not to pray with many words, He meant - don’t think that the more you say, the better your prayer will be… for example, let’s say you need some help… it’s alright to simply say “Lord please help me” cause He already knows what it is you don’t have to go on and on about it. That’s how I interpret the verse… and that’s how I think the Church interprets it too?

It wasnt Christ it was Matthew:

Matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

‘babbling’ can have many interpretations. someone already gave me a pretty good explanantion of what it means as defined by the CC already in another post on the rosary. see, a big erroneous argument some pose is that the rosary is repititous ‘babbling’ and therefore we go against Matthew’s teachings…while we do ‘repeat’ the rosary, its obviously not ‘babbling’, theres structure, theres meaning, theres purpose. I’d have to look for it and come back, so it’ll be in a later post.

of course it’s alright to talk to God for a long time if youre just doing it to be with Him, understanding that you don’t HAVE TO say all those words, but just for love of Him

like how some people love saying the Hail Mary over and over because they love Mary

I’d say its definitely alright to talk to God for a long time. In fact I’d encourage it. Or a short time, or ANY time. And I agree there arent specific words you have to have with Him, I pray in a very conversational manner. This is irrelevant to large masses of people babbling ‘messages’ from spirits.

 

[Charlotte408]

some day you will laugh that we had this conversation. Yes, as I said, we can pray personally to God aloud in tongues because it has no interpretation.

1 Corinthians 12:9-11 (New International Version)
9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

Yes, there’s supposed to be…it goes hand in hand…that is, if its a valid ‘speaking in tongues’.

That is my very point

Well its a very moot point.

St. Paul says that there is a kind of praying in tongues that no one can understand because it is a prayer thta only God understands. What do you think this would sound like if I prayed in a tongue that neither I nor anyone else understood? It not be understood! that is precisely what we do! Praise the Lord!!!

what I am referring to is 1 Cor 14:2.

1 Corinthians 14:2
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

Hmmm…what a contradiction to the first passage. See, if we could cut and paste or single out passages to work to our advantage, well then this would be a great example of such! Clearly in Corinthians 14:2 he IS saying that ‘no one understands him’…but how does that jive with giving out gifts and one of them being an ‘interpreter’???

Could it be that, the people who do not bear these gifts can not understand the tongue? And that those who were granted the gift on ‘interpreter’ do? A little common sense here people…this is all in the same chapter- you cant pick and choose which passage you want to believe, there has to be a convergence (if thats the right word) of the two passages and their meanings…

 

[Charlotte408]

But I do want to offer a wonderful blessing that I have received from our Lord Jesus. I want to offer this as a disciple of our Lord, to you my fellow brothers and sisters.

See, here we go again…it just sounds like your selling something, that isnt yours to sell. You ‘offer’ a blessing? What blessing is that? The blessing of speaking in tongues? See, the issue I’m starting to have with this ‘movement’ is that, like I said, it sounds more like a trend.

‘Hey have you heard about speaking in tongues?? Its the new revival in faith of Christ the Lord and EVERYBODY can do it!!! Praise the Lord!’

Problem being thats not your blessing to give. Only the Lord our God can bestow TRUE gifts such as speaking in tongues…and your implying like just anyone can do it and they should…but if they are not GENUINE and called to do so, they SHOULDNT. Its dangerous. And if they were genuinely called to have such a gift, they would experience it with or without your influence…

 

[Charlotte408]

I like your attitude

yes let’s just all pray and God will show, I hope! we sometimes argue SOO much, but I’ve learned - we can’t really prove anything in debates! I mean, it’s really hard, and sometimes it only drives people apart

let’s remember - we’re all CATHOLICS - one Body in Christ we shouldn’t argue about anything! haha

Monica, no one is arguing…its a conversation, and an excellent thread btw i was gonna mention that…lol…NEVER before have I been so anxious to get home and jump on here LMBO…its just, constructive conversation. Just because we disagree doesnt mean any of us here harbor ill will, I certainly dont

BUT- Monica- as for your last comment, I have to remind you that AS catholics it is our duty to search for the truth, we should never just ‘accept’ anything without knowing the in’s and out’s of why, thats why we have such lovely informational sources like CAF

 

[Charlotte408]

What if I was encouraging someone to pray the rosary, wouldn’t that be okay though? I want to share this blessing with others. Are you accusing me of something?

Theres obviously a difference, the rosary being a prayer that everyone can and should say…

speaking in tongues being a gift that only God can give, otherwise no one should say.

your comparing apples and oranges.

 

[plan19]

Plan16,

with the grace of God, I plan to continue to encourage people to join the Charismatic Renewal as the Catholic Church calls it “a grace for the church.” I know how much it has changed my life, praise to God! and I want to help others in the same way.

No. You want others to do it because it, then, legitimizes what you are doing. Cults work this way.

That is why I am doing this. I hope that you can understand that.

I understand that you are well-intentioned. I also understand that you are acting off of bad information, and are committing a great wrong.

But you have to understand, if the Catholic Church supports the CCR, they must know that when people join us, they will be encouraged to pray in tongues.

Right back to bargaining. Again… cite source material if you want to argue “support”.

So far you have no support in scripture, tradition, all of history, and church doctrine. You have provided evidence of none of it.

As stated before…The Church’s silence on the matter is not a sign of legitimacy. It is a matter which should not require clarification.

here is the answer to what praying in a language that nobody knows would be like:

St. Augustine stated: “What does it mean to sing in jubilation? It means to realize that you cannot express in words what our heart is singing. People who are singing…who have begun to exult with joy in the words of a song, as if filled with such great joy that they can no longer express it in words, leave off the syllables of words and go into the sound of jubilation. For jubilation is a sound which signifies that the heart is giving utterance to what it cannot say in words. And for who is such jubilation fitting if not for the ineffable God? For he is ineffable whom one cannot express in words; and if you cannot express Him in words, and yet you cannot remain silent either, then what is left but to sing in jubilation, so that your heart may rejoice without words, and your unbounded joy may not be confined by the limits of syllables.” (On Psalm 32, Enarrationes in Psalmos, 32, ii, Sermo 1: 8) 74.125.155.132/search?q=cache…&ct=clnk&gl=us
{snipped false attribution}

First of all… you didn’t provide ANYTHING about St. Francis. You cannot make something up and attribute it to a saint merely because you’d like it to be that way.

Second of all… you MUST be getting desperate… linking to all these third-party sites instead of source material…

Thirdly - “Jubilation” is NOT “nonsense”. You can’t pull this sort of stunt… intentionally misinterpreting things in order to get the result you want.

Did you by chance actually read the above quote? I bolded the important part - the part indicating St. Augustine is merely talking about someone being so excited that they talk so fast that they trip over words… but WORDS nonetheless.

here is what I found regarding this:

In the Middle Ages men of the Church and others recognized the charism gift of speaking in tongues as having the characteristics mainly of xenolalia and jubilation. It was believed the gift principally helped to preach to people in foreign languages. St. Romuald, founder of the Camaldolese monks, is said to have received the “tongues of angels” before he died. The gift is mentioned in the writings and teaching of St. Bernard of Clairvaux, the founder of the Cistercian Order. Also, it was in the Franciscan Order as the jubilation possessed by St. Francis. The latter is commentated upon by Eddie Ensley in his Sounds of Wonder, (New York, Paulist Press, 1977). “in early Franciscan literature actual sounds of certain jubilations are written out, and these descriptions are strikingly similar to descriptions of modern day glossolalia of the Charismatic Renewal.”
themystica.com/mystica/ar…atics_the.html

Wow… a site called “The Mystica”. How does that site describe itself? “An on-line encyclopedia of the occult, mysticism, magic, paranormal and more…”

I like the vague reference to “early franciscan literature”. Clearly you have me beat, Flame. I can’t compete with… oh, yeah… complete fabrication.

Provide references to source material ONLY. Sorry, but I have attempted to vet the contents of this “article”… but cannot. So far as I can tell… it’s a total unauthoritative lie. No footnotes are available, and I can count two statements right off that set off all kinds of alarm bells.

That is not a language that anyone knows. But you can hear it sung aloud. That is what I would call a prayer language. We do the very same thing with tongues!

You have, again, provided nothing.

Are you noticing a pattern here?

 

[plan19]

Monica, no one is arguing…its a conversation, and an excellent thread btw i was gonna mention that…lol…NEVER before have I been so anxious to get home and jump on here LMBO…

Yeah… Thankfully I work for myself otherwise I’m sure my boss would be unhappy with the time I’ve devoted to this thread…

I’ve actually quite enjoyed it… Forced me to use a few books I haven’t needed to use for awhile.

its just, constructive conversation. Just because we disagree doesnt mean any of us here harbor ill will, I certainly dont

Bingo. As stated before… I like flame. He can come hang out in my workshop any day.

BUT- Monica- as for your last comment, I have to remind you that AS catholics it is our duty to search for the truth, we should never just ‘accept’ anything without knowing the in’s and out’s of why, thats why we have such lovely informational sources like CAF

Absolutely. Test all that you know, and hold fast that which is good.

 

[Monica4316]

Hi Monica no need to debate …I just made a comment to what he said…Peace to you…
It was pretty cool in that large gathering to see the nuns in their nun outfits us all worshiping the Lord together…It was open for all churches…People came from many states…

I once went to a CCR ‘retreat’ and I saw nuns there too

Hi,

I used to go to “catholic” charismatic meetings earlier in my life, and it never felt quite right to see the 20 year old “leaders” at the front of the assembly, who were able to “receive” graces to speak in “tongues”, specially that it seemed not to have any structure like real languages have.

Until one day I asked one of them who was really invovled into one of those charismatic communities what her opinion is on this, and she said they were “encouraged to practice in their room”… and it had “no meaning”.

I’m no expert, but to me charism are only sent by God if it turns people to Him, and not the charismatic person into a pride basket.

I don’t want to judge people who truly have graces from God, but I must say there is no reason to try to build up what can be seen as a social advantage (well, depends on your social circle I suppose).

I think that with some people it’s real, but if for some others it’s about pride…that’s very sad in that case they’re making it up, or taking something from God and turning it into something bad, something selfish… I think we can’t assume that people are like this though, and think the best about everyone if we don’t know for sure.

I can see how in some churches, speaking in tongues would be seen as a social advantage… to me it would probably be a social disadvantage though, hehe… so maybe it depends where you are

If it was me, I would seek spiritual guidance from an experienced priest and my preference would be to follow St John of the Cross spirituality - which (to my understanding) is to renounce to surnatural gifts if we are allowed to do so, because it has to turn oneself inward and not toward God.

Bless you all.

if a spiritual gift leads us to pride, I think we should consult a good priest and do what he says, even if it means renouncing what we’ve experienced. I agree with you that we shouldn’t seek after gifts but only accept what the Lord truly offers, and be careful that we’re doing so in obedience and not out of pride

St John of the Cross is very wise

here is the answer to what praying in a language that nobody knows would be like:

Connected to this is my attempt to answer what we were talking about earlier with regard to St. Francis. He was known to sing in the Spirit. In his time it was also called “jubilation.”

here is what I found regarding this:

at the end there, notice how this prayer of jubilation was able to be written out on paper. The point to this is that there was such a prayer, a prayer that has no meaning in any known language, called jubilation that was spoken out loud and could be written down.

That is not a language that anyone knows. But you can hear it sung aloud. That is what I would call a prayer language. We do the very same thing with tongues!

that is cool
I’m going to look into this… it definitely makes sense how you’ve explained it though!

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

Do you understand what you just wrote? If its done in a church, it should be the way St. Paul described, but if a person is just praying, ALONE, then the rules are no longer applicable??? Did you read the rules? It SHOULD be done 1, 2, persons … or 3 with an interpreter…so if they are at home alone, the rules are not only APPLICABLE, but being followed!

well the way I’ve understood it, is that St Paul was saying we need an interpreter cause it’s often a message for other people. But if you’re just praying alone at home, it CAN’T be a message for anyone, and there’s clearly not going to be an interpreter… St Paul was writing to the Corinthian church and about how they conduct themselves during worship. I think he was speaking about something specific.

So have I…doesnt mean its supposed to happen like that…I’d think a gift so special wouldnt be given to just anyone or so many people, funny thing is theres a church downtown my girl went to, and there were like 6 people all talking in tongues…and apparently, theres even a whole movement, of who knows how many people talking in tongues…hey it could be the hottest new trend…

I don’t know, I don’t really look at it as a trend… although in some churches it might be seen in that way (which would be sad)

It wasnt Christ it was Matthew:

Matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

wasn’t Christ saying this though? (I think it was a quote from Him.)

as for “babbling”, that’s in your translation, but there are many different translations of the Bible, not all of them use that word

‘babbling’ can have many interpretations. someone already gave me a pretty good explanantion of what it means as defined by the CC already in another post on the rosary. see, a big erroneous argument some pose is that the rosary is repititous ‘babbling’ and therefore we go against Matthew’s teachings…while we do ‘repeat’ the rosary, its obviously not ‘babbling’, theres structure, theres meaning, theres purpose. I’d have to look for it and come back, so it’ll be in a later post.

in my Bible, it says “vain repetition”. The Rosary is not vain repetition because even though the words repeat, it’s not “vain”: you actually mean what you say. In terms of speaking in tongues, you’re not really repeating the same thing over and over cause you don’t even know what you’re saying.

I’m just saying there are different translations and we need to take that into account

Monica, no one is arguing…its a conversation, and an excellent thread btw i was gonna mention that…lol…NEVER before have I been so anxious to get home and jump on here LMBO…its just, constructive conversation. Just because we disagree doesnt mean any of us here harbor ill will, I certainly dont

haha… okay

BUT- Monica- as for your last comment, I have to remind you that AS catholics it is our duty to search for the truth, we should never just ‘accept’ anything without knowing the in’s and out’s of why, thats why we have such lovely informational sources like CAF

I don’t just accept anything the first thing I always do is find out what the Church teaching is. As for speaking in tongues, as you can see I haven’t yet made up my mind.

God bless

 

[plan19]

I’m just saying there are different translations and we need to take that into account

Funny thing, that. There is a right answer and a wrong answer.
The word used is βατταλογέω.
Definitions (Thayer)

1. to stammer
2. to repeat the same things over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, prate.

So the prohibition is not against repeating verses, but against repeating words and phonemes.

What’s interesting is that babbling is mentioned in Thayer… which is appropriate since βατταλογέω is derived from the word Βάττος . Βάττος is derived from an actual person’s name… Battus of Cyrene. (Read more here at Wikipedia) Battus of Cyrene had a speech impediment as a child… he stuttered and sounded nonsensical. The word to describe said condition actually came from his name. How horrible is that?

Point being: Charlotte’s definition is correct… and yours is incorrect. Time to get an approved Catholic bible.

 

[Monica4316]

In my Vatican approved CATHOLIC RSV Bible, it says “do not heap up empty phases like the Gentiles do”.

doesn’t seem like speaking in tongues to me…OR like the Rosary (obviously)
but something different

people who speak in tongues don’t “babble” or “stammer” …they just say words that aren’t known in any language