Poll: Gift of praying in tongues

[plan19]

In my Vatican approved CATHOLIC RSV Bible, it says “do not heap up empty phases like the Gentiles do”.

doesn’t seem like speaking in tongues to me…OR like the Rosary (obviously)
but something different

people who speak in tongues don’t “babble” or “stammer” …they just say words that aren’t known in any language

Empty phrases is a correct usage. See “idle words”.

I’m also telling you that like many words in the English language, the word βατταλογέω has multiple senses. The sense chosen was the eloquent (and sensible) one. It would have been much less eloquent if Matt 6:7 said “Don’t yammer, and also don’t speak as though you’re suffering from Wernicke’s aphasia.” But, essentially, that’s what is said.

 

[Monica4316]

Empty phrases is a correct usage. See “idle words”.

I’m also telling you that like many words in the English language, the word βατταλογέω has multiple senses. The sense chosen was the eloquent (and sensible) one. It would have been much less eloquent if Matt 6:7 said “Don’t yammer, and also don’t speak as though you’re suffering from Wernicke’s aphasia.” But, essentially, that’s what is said.

I disagree that “empty phrases” is like Wernicke’s aphasia…
(and I do know what that is cause I’m a psych. student)

I think what it’s saying is that we should mean what we pray, don’t say extra words just for the sake of saying extra words. That’s why I think Jesus clarified, saying that God already knows everything we need, so it’s alright to use as few or as many words as is best… quality over quantity

when people pray in tongues, even though they don’t know what the words mean, they still mean the prayer

 

[plan19]

I disagree that “empty phrases” is like Wernicke’s aphasia…
(and I do know what that is cause I’m a psych. student)

I think what it’s saying is that we should mean what we pray, don’t say extra words just for the sake of saying extra words. That’s why I think Jesus clarified, saying that God already knows everything we need, so it’s alright to use as few or as many words as is best… quality over quantity

when people pray in tongues, even though they don’t know what the words mean, they still mean the prayer

Language translation is not a 1-1 correlation. We’re not talking about “empty phrases” (the end-result of translation). We’re talking about the source text… the word being βατταλογέω. The definitions of this word, and etymology of it are not up for debate. Fact is fact. βατταλογέω means “useless speech in the form of empty repetition or babbling”.

Matthew 6:7 refers both to idle words AND babbling… thus the definition.
laparola.net/greco/parola.php?p=%CE%B2%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%E1%BD%B3%CF%89

Here is the source text:
blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&v=7&t=KJV#conc/7

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Did anyone read what the head of the congregation of the progagation of the doctrine of the faith had to say in the article I posted earlier? If he speaks positively when he mentions tongues, who else do we need to consult? Do you think you know more about what is true doctrine than he does?

Monica, these folks do not believe in tongues as prayed in the Church supported Charismatic Renewal, and have made up their minds. They are not interested at all to know if the Head of this congregation says positive things when he mentions tongues. If they were seeking to know, that would have touched them. They have already made up their minds and there is no need to try to show them anything at all.

I think that you already see this.

I know of a religious order that is fully charismatic. How coud you say that the church does not support what they do (their charism is to go and give Charismatic Life in the Spirit seminars to those who want to open up to the CCR)?

It is very very difficult to start a new religious order. Yet they have received approval from the Vatican and this is legit. Of course the church would first find out exactly what they are about before they give them any kind of approval to go out and teach and even to allow others to join their order. www.dljc.org the church doesn’t know what that these nuns teach what they teach, because they investigate everything before allowing a new religious order to come about.

It is ridiculous to think that the church does not know that we pray in tongues in this way. simply ridiculous. EVERYONE knows we pray this way. We still not only have approval but are endorsed by the Catholic Church.

Would you like me to show you how endorsed we are, because it is all over the internet. Endorsed by the Church.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Does the Church know that we pray in tongues in this way?

yes

Does the Church know that we are hoping to spread this renewal to all the church?

yes

Has the Church ever said that we should stop doing what we do?

no

Is the Church guiding all the faithful?

yes

Is the Church correct to allow us to teach what we teach?

The Church is always correct with regard to faith and morals.

Do people reject what the church approves?

oh yes…

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

here is the issue I see here:

You cannot see how when the church approves the Catholic Chairsmatic Renewal, that it is also approving the way we pray. Imagine the church approving something it knows nothign about. ridiculous… the church knows and yet still approves us.

even more:

The church knows that we teach what I have been trying to present here about tongues. The church knows that we teach this. nuf said.

Every movement that goes allows error into its teaching is addressed by the church. That is how the church works my friends. Neo-catecumenical was addressed when they allowed error, so was the Legionaries of Christ, so are SSPX, praise God for stopping errors which the church speaks up against.

the bottom line:

our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has given nothing, but approvoal of us and what we do. LOL they don’t give approval because they like our name. They give approval because they like what we do!

Why would the church give us approval?

because they think it is a niffy idea to have something called a “renewal”? no actually it is because they have investigated what we do and they approve it. btw for those who don’t realize this, if you go to any catholic charismatic conference, people there will be praying in tongues as we do at our events. Sorry but some people here are speaking against what the church approves.

 

[Monica4316]

Language translation is not a 1-1 correlation. We’re not talking about “empty phrases” (the end-result of translation). We’re talking about the source text… the word being βατταλογέω. The definitions of this word, and etymology of it are not up for debate. Fact is fact. βατταλογέω means “useless speech in the form of empty repetition or babbling”.

Matthew 6:7 refers both to idle words AND babbling… thus the definition.
laparola.net/greco/parola.php?p=%CE%B2%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%E1%BD%B3%CF%89

Here is the source text:
blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&v=7&t=KJV#conc/7

but what I’m saying is, how is it like speaking in tongues?

Did anyone read what the head of the congregation of the progagation of the doctrine of the faith had to say in the article I posted earlier? If he speaks positively when he mentions tongues, who else do we need to consult? Do you think you know more about what is true doctrine than he does?

Monica, these folks do not believe in tongues as prayed in the Church supported Charismatic Renewal, and have made up their minds. They are not interested at all to know if the Head of this congregation says positive things when he mentions tongues. If they were seeking to know, that would have touched them. They have already made up their minds and there is no need to try to show them anything at all.

I think that you already see this.

I know of a religious order that is fully charismatic. How coud you say that the church does not support what they do (their charism is to go and give Charismatic Life in the Spirit seminars to those who want to open up to the CCR)?

It is very very difficult to start a new religious order. Yet they have received approval from the Vatican and this is legit. Of course the church would first find out exactly what they are about before they give them any kind of approval to go out and teach and even to allow others to join their order. www.dljc.org the church doesn’t know what that these nuns teach what they teach, because they investigate everything before allowing a new religious order to come about.

It is ridiculous to think that the church does not know that we pray in tongues in this way. simply ridiculous. EVERYONE knows we pray this way. We still not only have approval but are endorsed by the Catholic Church.

Would you like me to show you how endorsed we are, because it is all over the internet. Endorsed by the Church.

I know of an order of priest, “Companions of the Cross”, who are very much accepted by the Church and they are fully charismatic… I went to a young adult conference and they were there, and there were also several Bishops, an Archbishop, and a Papal Nuncio from the Vatican!

Every movement that goes allows error into its teaching is addressed by the church. That is how the church works my friends. Neo-catecumenical was addressed when they allowed error, so was the** Legionaries of Christ**, so are SSPX, praise God for stopping errors which the church speaks up against.

I have a question… are the Legionaries still in the Church? or are they schismatic?

sorry this is a bit off topic… I was just wondering

God bless

 

[plan19]

Sorry but some people here are speaking against what the church approves.

Straw man. Stop lying. I answered your post RE CDF. You haven’t answered ANY of mine… but don’t bother now because I am withdrawing myself.

Ladies and gentlemen: notice he CANNOT answer my previous post, nor any other. Finally we are whittled down. I have beaten his every single defense. Now it is this.

The conversation will never cede any further from here… So Flame I will no longer respond to you. I have taken this debate as far as it can go.

To review: You can provide zero documentation in support of your concept of “tongues”.

Your defense now consists solely of “the church hasn’t stamped us out, so it MUST condone and adopt as its official teaching EVERY SINGLE thing we do”.

The unfortunate side of this logic is its implications: If that is true then every single Catholic priest can now marry because we have allowed married priests to convert and stay married. Charismatics are allowed to carry on with their foolishness BECAUSE it keeps them in the church… not because what they do is accepted church doctrine. If this was the case, then Flame would be able to provide me with those parts of church doctrine that declare tongues=nonsensical babbling.

He cannot because the church doesn’t teach that. All he’s managed to do is traverse four out of five of the stages of grieving.

So this is where it ends. Since this conversation can go no further in a mature and adult fashion… my participation in it will end.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

plan16 I am sorry that you feel that I have not provided a good explanation of why I believe that the Church is supporting the way we pray in the Charismatic Renewal. Yes we do pray in tongues in this way.

I consider you a brother in Christ nonetheless.

I pray that although we could not come to an agreement, both you and I can be at peace with each other.

You came to this thread having already made you decision, stated from your first post. Can I ask you why have you been so adament to prove this wrong?

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

After giving some more thought to the discussions we have had here, I have been praying more about the gift of tongues. The Lord has brought to light alot of other scriptures to talk about what this gift is like. If anyone is interested, I will share of the insights that I believe are from Jesus.

The first is in 1 Corinthians chapter 13 verse 1:

“If I speak in human and angelic tongues, but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing symbol.”

What I gleaned from this is that it is possible to speak in the language of angels. Okay so the reason why I mention this is because look how it might be if someone spoke in the language of angels while here on earth. That is not a known language of any nation that we know of. So if that were possible, and it seems that this is so, then wouldn’t it sound strange to hear someone do it? You might call it nonsense or yes, even gibberish. Even if it sounded beautiful, the fact that you did not recognize it as a human language could cause you to doubt it being a real heavenly language.

I want to comment ahead of time for anyone who might propose that St. Paul was not actually speaking of real tongues of angels but speaking poetically. Well, I would offer a few things:

1. The context of 1 Cor 13 is tongues and spiritual gifts, notice how it is a chapter in between the the famous charismatic gift list (1 Cor 12:7-10) and the 1 Cor 14 which speaks volumes about tongues. This is defiantely a message for the Corinthians who seem to be very much using all the spiritual gifts, sometimes incorrectly, sometimes without love.
2. In 1 Cor 13, the chapter on how nothing matters if there is not love, speaks of real kinds of examples: faith that can move mountians, giving up all one has, understanding the mysteries of God, etc. So I think St. Paul’s mention of the tongues of angels is a reference to something real.

So this is the first thing that I want to share about this, and I will attempt to show some other scriptures that the Lord is giving me.

 

[Monica4316]

That is cool, brother
I think I remember noticing that a long time ago, but I forgot about it.

God bless

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

That is cool, brother
I think I remember noticing that a long time ago, but I forgot about it.

God bless

Your comment sounds like the state of the Church with regard to tongues. Praise the Lord for doing a mighty work by the Power of His Spirit in this our day.

Do you remember St. Louis De Montfort’s prophecy concerning the apostles of the last days? He said that they would be greater than all the saints of earlier ages. That is like whoa, and of course we are still waiting to see that for sure! I do believe that this special outpouring of the Holy Spirit we are seeing now is playing a large part into that day coming about.

 

[sauce]

What then is at the heart of the matter?

The internet is not the greatest place in the world of communication to try to reach any serious level of connection.

No one knows each other.
There is no way to establish an authentic experience of one another.
Emotional icons do not work.

This is a face-to-face business. And how frustrating it is to realize that you cannot see the facial expressions of someone while they are expressing themselves, or to hear the tone and inflections of the voice of that person.

And their eyes!

Jesus got Judas’s lips. Peter got Jesus’s eyes. Wish we had that advantage.

So much is missing. It is too easy to use the computer in an unhealthy way.

Anyway, keep reading scripture prayerfully and God will do whatever He’s gonna do.
Expectant faith is desirable. Just a few thoughts.

 

[Rv_Cain_Spencer]

I have prayed the Rosary in tongues.

I was alone, I knew what I was saying but the words came out different.

It was very peaceful.

Dana

Praying the rosary in tounges? I’ve not heard of this before.

My ministers use to pray for me in this way though, back in my protestant days.

 

[karoleck]

Your question about where you STAND about praying in tongues is correct,most people who do pray like this do STAND.!(unless someone prays on them and they FALL! It is what I get for breathing in the fresh air of mowing the lawns—someone would say,why did I not do the weeding and stop making silly posts(maybe, something in that
To answer your question,I recently attended a Charistmatic(Catholic) meeting at my local church hall,they had advertised a prominent world figure ,but there was a mix up;the person told me that I was welcome to attend this normal one anyway.I have respect for people who are attracted to the Charismatic Spirituality,so I stayed-they were all very welcoming.We sang a lot of “Negro spiritual songs"I think the term is now Afro-American,no offence intended).I am just blown away by the heart felt,beautiful gift that comes from The South.(ours was just an imitation sing along-guitar and keyboard!)
The Leader called someone for a scriptural reading and we all shared insights from it.Then were the prayers of intercesion,then the leader gave a talk on St.Mary John Vianney,all very well put and basically said that the saintly priest had all the Charismatic gifts and so really was a one of us but did not know it.Amen!! We all stood up and everyone prayed out loud in tongues,I closed my eyes and enjoyed the prayer filled atmosphere which I felt in my heart.They only prayed that way for a few minutes,he afterwards said the he attended a leaders meeting and they went on and on for ever praying in tongues.(Well I believe he said a long time,then!) There was a cup of tea and since some were getting prayed over by the lay leader I used this opportunity to slip away.I will probably not go again,I personally would prefer an hour of silent adoration in a Church and no I am not interested to learn this method of praying in tongues,I received The Holy Spirit at the Sacrament of Baptism and then the fullness of His sevenfold gifts when The Bishop prayed over me at the Sacrament of Confirmation.I am hoping to build on this by my spiritual life in The Sacrament of Reconcilliation and receiving The Eucharist.I would like to model my spiritual lifeon Mary ,who received The Fullness of The Holy Spirit along with The 12Apostles.Natually in a humbler way as I try to learn to say 'Yes” to the graces that God in His Mercy offers me,through the power of The Holy Spirit.At the end of my life it would be nice, if the preacher said that "I was a charistmatic,but did not know it,;ut as a priest told his friends,no sermons about me!-"I do not want me to be lying in the coffin and The Bishop up there “Lying"in the pulpit”!!-a holy priest I thought all the same.I do mention an observation, as far as catholic charismatics are concerned.I went years ago to on of their “talks promotions by a gifted preacher”,it was held in the Church with Our Lord present in The Eucharistic Host.Before and after the talk and the Mass ,said by a Bishop,the talking in the church was deafening!! One thought crossed my mind ,was if these people were full of the Holy Spirit they would have respected Christ who was there.And no,they were not praying in tongues, but useless chatter!! “May my tongue sing of Your Praise” Come Holy Spirit,fill the hearts of your faithful.This is what I do,if others wish to pray in tongues-well the freedom of the children of God;they are free to do it and Pope John Paul 11 asked Bishops to make available priests to look after Charistmatics.