Poll: I can understand why people leave the Roman Catholic Church

[Annabelle_Marie]

Again, you don’t seem to get it at all. We believe and uphold that we are part of the One True Church. So do the Orthodox and even the Protestants. If there was CLEAR, OBJECTIVE PROOF WITHOUT DISPUTE that the CC is THE ONLY Church, then we would NOT have had such major schisms. I’m not sure if you’re even reading my posts. I know precisely the reasons for the schisms. You are simply trying to dismiss anyone who leaves as an ignorant, selfish, whiny child, and that does nothing but cause you to look conceited and incapable of understanding the very real struggle it is to have a crisis of faith, to wonder if you are in the wrong church after seeing the nuts and bolts and learning how they work. You are creating a very big false dichotomy, and being extremely unfair, dismissive and antagonistic in saying what you do.

Wow–that’s not what I got out of his 3 reasons at all. And I was one who left (and then came back). I think everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath! #3 or #4 Personal Beliefs…that could encompass many things. I don’t believe that he was intending to put people down quite like everyone is accusing him.

 

[Javl]

Again, you don’t seem to get it at all. We believe and uphold that we are part of the One True Church. So do the Orthodox and even the Protestants. If there was CLEAR, OBJECTIVE PROOF WITHOUT DISPUTE that the CC is THE ONLY Church, then we would NOT have had such major schisms. I’m not sure if you’re even reading my posts. I know precisely the reasons for the schisms. You are simply trying to dismiss anyone who leaves as an ignorant, selfish, whiny child, and that does nothing but cause you to look conceited and incapable of understanding the very real struggle it is to have a crisis of faith, to wonder if you are in the wrong church after seeing the nuts and bolts and learning how they work. You are creating a very big false dichotomy, and being extremely unfair, dismissive and antagonistic in saying what you do.

And again you misunderstand. There IS proof that the CC IS the Church founded by Jesus. Read and understand the early Church Fathers. As for the disputes and schisms, they were not so much as disputes over theology or dogma, but mostly authority and politics. Read the History of the CC and the reasons for these splits. I have researched my subject and do not make my comments lightly.

Also, you post is very condescending and I look at it as a personal insult, but in Christian Charity I try to answer properly. You should try to do the same.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

There you claimed, that " the number of converts of non-Catholics to the Catholic Church is greater than all converts to other versions of Christianity put together". I don’t understand what you mean…if such were truly the case then one should expect that the Catholic share of Christendom would be gaining in percentage every year (especially given that Protestants are allowed birth control )…but in 500 years, in the West, non-catholic Christians have gone from what, < 1 % to about 40% (?) Your claim seems to be off.

That 40% may be in the U.S. The total Catholic population is over 1 billion and is gaining every year. The only other religion with a greater population is Islam, but only because conversion is forced.

An explanation wrt converts that you might be missing is that if a Catholic scholar concludes that the CC is not the one, true Church and is merely a denomination, the Catholic scholar need not leave the CC for another mere denomination. In contrast, if a non-Catholic scholar concludes that the CC is the one, true Church and is not merely a denomination, then that non-Catholic scholar must join the CC.

Not so. That is false logic. Again it is a personal choice and not a necessary or forced one. Remember, cats and dogs are animals, but not all animals are cats and dogs.

but it seems that you definitely do think that they are possessed of an ability to recognize and accept the fullness of truth in a way that the rest of us slobs just can’t achieve…and your reasons seem to be that what we lack is knowledge or character…hopefully, we’ll at least benefit from our invincible ignorance

If you slobs want to follow that route, then so be it. But a prayer from the heart to the Holy Spirit will result in the God given Grace to recognize the One True Church. Ask any convert why he/she chose, and why, the Catholic Church. Believe me, not all of them met your standard.

it sure is futile if the audience can’t bring himself to consider any other possibility, but on a balance of probabilities, to an audience free to consider that other possibility, it is quite provable IMHO

So you say, and if you say so.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Shiranui117]

And again you misunderstand. There IS proof that the CC IS the Church founded by Jesus. Read and understand the early Church Fathers. As for the disputes and schisms, they were not so much as disputes over theology or dogma, but mostly authority and politics. Read the History of the CC and the reasons for these splits. I have researched my subject and do not make my comments lightly.

Also, you post is very condescending and I look at it as a personal insult, but in Christian Charity I try to answer properly. You should try to do the same.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Just know that the CC isn’t the only Church that uses the Early Church Fathers for evidence. The Eastern Orthodox use them as well, and actually more often than the CC does, from what I’ve seen thus far.

I suppose a humble apology is in order. I viewed your posts as an attack on anyone who leaves the Church, and as such I started seeing red. Please forgive me.

 

[Javl]

Wow–that’s not what I got out of his 3 reasons at all. And I was one who left (and then came back). I think everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath! #3 or #4 Personal Beliefs…that could encompass many things. I don’t believe that he was intending to put people down quite like everyone is accusing him.

Thank you for your defense, but this is normal reaction when the truth is publishrd. Too many take it at face value without understanding what is presented. I am used to it. Being a bit conceited, I will say that the responses and remarks usually show that I am right. God Bless. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Just know that the CC isn’t the only Church that uses the Early Church Fathers for evidence. The Eastern Orthodox use them as well, and actually more often than the CC does, from what I’ve seen thus far.

Yes, the Orthodox do, but others use them as much too.

I suppose a humble apology is in order. I viewed your posts as an attack on anyone who leaves the Church, and as such I started seeing red. Please forgive me.

Apology accepted and I also apologize to you if I have gotten out of line with you. I do not attack anyone who leaves the Church. Their reason for doing so is between them and God. It is a personal thing. What I have posted, after much research, are the main reasons why they leave the Church.

As an added note, I believe and accept all TRUE Christians as belonging to the ONE Church. I consider non-Catholic Christians as my separated brothers and sisters. We all have one Father and “Older Brother” trying to keep us together in His house, but we are all obstinate and squabble like spoiled siblings. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Shiranui117]

That 40% may be in the U.S. The total Catholic population is over 1 billion and is gaining every year. The only other religion with a greater population is Islam, but only because conversion is forced.

Do I smell Paschal’s Wager?

Not so. That is false logic. Again it is a personal choice and not a necessary or forced one. Remember, cats and dogs are animals, but not all animals are cats and dogs.

How is that false logic, and how did that address his point?

If you slobs want to follow that route, then so be it. But a prayer from the heart to the Holy Spirit will result in the God given Grace to recognize the One True Church. Ask any convert why he/she chose, and why, the Catholic Church. Believe me, not all of them met your standard.

**
I AM a convert to the Church, and I came here because I agreed with the Church’s theology over Protestant theology, and I felt that God was calling me here. No one is saying that the CC objectively isn’t the One True Church. We are saying that people can truly feel that God is calling them to leave the Church and go somewhere else. Just ask converts to any other Church or denomination, and you’ll see what I mean. **

So you say, and if you say so.

To be honest, you sort of are dancing around our points now, or trying to make it sound like we’re saying something else.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[desertPavel]

I voted “somewhat”. I get weary of the hypocrisy of some of my fellow Catholics such as gossiping in the confessional line, making snide remarks during Communion and after Communion, leaving the church in the center aisle directly in front of the recessional procession and rushing to one’s car to be the first out of the parking lot.Then there are the latecomers who disrupt the Mass, many times at the Gospel reading.

Of course I have to remind myself of Jesus’ command to “remove the plank out of my own eye before I remove the splinter from the eye of my neighbor.”

The real presence of the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist keeps me anchored.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And I could add to that my annoyances:

Singing Protestanty feel-good songs that annoy the crud out of me
Having like 12 Eucharistic ministers passing out Holy Communion (rrrrrgh!!)
People holding hands during the Our Father
Communion on the tongue
People wearing Oakland Raiders t-shirts at Mass (Raiders stink anywhere, especially at Church! )
The Mexican parishoners yelling and screaming and gossiping and talking and letting their kids run all up and down the pews during confession line
Everything written in Spanish with English at the bottom like an afterthought
Patronizing ethnic groups and turning the church into an ethnic fiesta (my wife is filipina and she finds the whole karaoke thing in the parish hall to be inappropriate!)
Snobby priests
Snobby parishoners
Watered-down liturgy
Incense NEVER being used anymore except at a funeral (and then you’re dead and can’t even enjoy it!)
Lousy confession times (7pm on the northside of my town is like a ghetto! You’re risking your life to go to confession!)
Banal sermons
Priests never available, no pastoral care

But I digress…LOL

I voted “somewhat”. I get weary of the hypocrisy of some of my fellow Catholics such as gossiping in the confessional line, making snide remarks during Communion and after Communion, leaving the church in the center aisle directly in front of the recessional procession and rushing to one’s car to be the first out of the parking lot.Then there are the latecomers who disrupt the Mass, many times at the Gospel reading.

Of course I have to remind myself of Jesus’ command to “remove the plank out of my own eye before I remove the splinter from the eye of my neighbor.”

The real presence of the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist keeps me anchored.

 

[Javl]

Shiranui117:
I don’t know. A question is asked about a subject I have researched, I give the results of the research and then I am totaly misunderstood and vilified by all for doing so. I’ve always been under the impression that these forums are for the exchange, and/or gathering, of information. Ah, well. I’ll mind my business from now on.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem.

 

[Radical]

That 40% may be in the U.S.

no that is 40% world wide. Numbers vary from one source to the next, but basically it comes down to this worldwide (in millions):

Orthodox 225-250

Catholic 1100-1200

Anglican 80

Other Christian 750-800 (a source )

…so excluding the Orthodox, at one time, about 500 years ago, the Catholics made up about 100% of western Christians. Now they make up about 55-60%. That’s quite a drop.

The total Catholic population is over 1 billion and is gaining every year.

and the total “other Christian” population is growing a little faster. Another thing that you might have failed to take into account is that the Catholic numbers benefit from the baptisimal certificate factor. A fellow may not have seen a Catholic Church in decades, but b/c he was baptized in a Catholic Church, he is often counted as Catholic in a typical head count. It is quite possible that amongst devout Christians, Catholics constitute a minority…a very sizeable minority, but a minority nonetheless…just saying…

I don’t know. A question is asked about a subject I have researched, I give the results of the research and then I am totaly misunderstood and vilified by all for doing so.

a good rule of thumb is that, if you find everyone disagreeing with you, you just might be wrong. I think Gurney and Shiranui117 have done a pretty good job of deliniating what we see as your error…you might want to reconsider their points.

Returning to the subject of this thread, did your research in this area cause you to consider Latin America (home to almost 1/2 of the world’s Catholics)? Here is an article from a Catholic magazine discussing why people leave the Catholic Church for Protestantism in Brazil. Given that Latin America has the biggest chunk of the world’s Catholics and given that Brazil is the largest country in Latin America the answers provided by this article are likely valid for many, many once Catholics, now Protestants. Some tidbits:

a) “Seventy-one percent of Brazilians are Catholic; 11 percent are Protestants (mostly Evangelical, Baptist, Adventists and members of the Assemblies of God);”

b) "In many respects Brazilian Protestants are better Catholics than are Brazilian Catholics… While 70 percent of all Brazilians believe that God is concerned about them as individual persons (also the highest in the world), 76 percent of those who have converted believe in this personal concern. Converts are also significantly more likely to believe in life after death, heaven, hell and miracles. Seventy percent of the converts believe in the literal, word-for-word inspiration of the Bible, but so do 59 percent of those who remain Catholic…

c) “Those who remain Catholic, very religious by all comparisons with other countries, seem less religious only in comparison with those who have converted to Protestantism. Can this phenomenon be explained by the fact that the Protestant denominations, fundamentalist for the most part, are able to make more intense religious demands on their members or by the fact that those who join are looking for a more intense and demanding religious community? Perhaps some combination of both factors is at work.”

d) “Converts…are less likely to be well educated, more likely to be women, less likely to be from the Northeast (cities like Recife, Fortaleza and Salvador). Parental religious devotion, age, city size, rural dwelling, income, race, confidence in public institutions and lack of political affiliation do not correlate with conversion.”

e) " More than one out of five of those who were raised Catholics leave the church—9 percent to Protestantism, 4 percent to the cults and 9 percent to join those with no religious affiliation. However, Catholicism has a higher rate of retention than do any of the other religious groups. More than two-fifths of those who were raised Protestant are no longer Protestant, which is what one would expect of sect-like groups. The Catholic Church picks up 16 percent of those who were raised Protestants. Obviously religious change in Brazil is frequent."

f) “Perhaps the high defection rate among those raised Protestant (42 percent) can be explained by the fact that the younger generation of Brazilian Protestants do not find the demands, and the apparent enthusiasm that supports them, attractive.”

 

[Andrew1983]

And I could add to that my annoyances:

Singing Protestanty feel-good songs that annoy the crud out of me
Having like 12 Eucharistic ministers passing out Holy Communion (rrrrrgh!!)
People holding hands during the Our Father
Communion on the tongue
People wearing Oakland Raiders t-shirts at Mass (Raiders stink anywhere, especially at Church! )
The Mexican parishoners yelling and screaming and gossiping and talking and letting their kids run all up and down the pews during confession line
Everything written in Spanish with English at the bottom like an afterthought
Patronizing ethnic groups and turning the church into an ethnic fiesta (my wife is filipina and she finds the whole karaoke thing in the parish hall to be inappropriate!)
Snobby priests
Snobby parishoners
Watered-down liturgy
Incense NEVER being used anymore except at a funeral (and then you’re dead and can’t even enjoy it!)
Lousy confession times (7pm on the northside of my town is like a ghetto! You’re risking your life to go to confession!)
Banal sermons
Priests never available, no pastoral care

But I digress…LOL

^ This is quoted for truth. The Tridentine Latin Mass is better when it is applied in full.
I don’t really have all the problems you have, but there are some things that you mentioned that seem like a universal problem. My biggest beef is that the Church needs to start hammering this moral relativism garbage and start addressing the key moral crises in the U.S, nay, ALL of Western Civ. I don’t want to go into a church and hear that the Muslims may have some things in common with Catholicism. If I want to hear how great Islam is, I’ll convert to their faith and attend a mosque. Likewise, I already know that deifying the acquisition of material goods isn’t all that important in the grand scheme of things. We don’t need to repeat the same sermon every other week. And a watered down one at that.

Now it’s true that I’m not the exemplary model of a Christian. Far from it. I’ve got my own darkness to destroy, but good grief, with all the moral decay around us, the priests need to start training the parish to be soldiers of God. Not strapping bombs to ourselves and blowing stuff up, mind you, but we need to not just be engaged at a watered down don’t do this, don’t do that level, but hold sermons that address the pressing moral issues of our time while teaching people to be able to defend the faith against the faithless.

At least in my opinion, the most pressing concerns are abortion, sexual perversion (not just homosexuality, but fornication, pornography, etc.), and personal responsibility. Why else do you think Gen Xers like myself leave or left the church?

We’ve received such a brainwashing from popular culture, education, and other influences that it effectively nullified the watered-down lessons to being completely irrelevant.

 

[Andrew1983]

Case in point, I’ll confess my own inadequacies with regards to how I saw sexual morality ten years ago and how at 27 I see them now.

10 years ago: Masturbation is not a sin, it is a means to relieve a carnal desire. Besides, I’d rather have kids doing that than risk actual sex as you risk transmittal of diseases as well as pregnancy.

Now: Masturbation is a sin in that is is a gateway to far worse activities. Having pushed the boundaries of conscience to now accept this as perfectly moral, the next step is pornography, and then fornication, etc.

10 years ago: Porn is acceptable in only that it allows for a person to experience “safe sex” without actually risking oneself to the negative consequences such as pregnancy or STDs. Basically, this is a means to an end in being able to live out any sexual activity without actually having to deal with the risks. The only virus one has to worry about is a computer virus.

Now: Porn is NOT acceptable because one’s viewership effectively champions the self-destruction and spiritual damnation of the participants involved. Even if the people aren’t people you know, why should a complete stranger be treated with a double standard? This is COMPLETELY SELFISH and I ashamed to admit that I have not gotten this until I began to research the health side effects of sexual perversion. As far as purifying my own soul of this wretched filth, I began the process nearly a year ago and while some improvement has been made, this is taking a bit long to deprogram the desires of the flesh.

10 years ago: Fornication is… I don’t know. I suppose if you really love the person and find the right girl, it’s fine. I feel strange though. Almost like the actual loss of virginity should be reserved for only the right one. And at 17 I don’t think I’m mature enough to handle sex. What with all about STDs and unwanted pregnancies. True, there is birth control, but condoms break and there is no 100% guarantee that no negative consequences occur. Besides I can’t afford to raise a son or daughter, I’ve got no means and we would live like paupers. And there is no way on God’s Green Earth that I will murder my child through abortion due to my own irresponsibility.

Now: Fornication is a sin. Though I don’t think I had truly been able to wrap my brain around the concept at the time, any opportunity I had to engage in this I rejected. My conscience was almost like an alarm bell screaming to the point where I just could not break into a deeper level of sin. Understanding the role of sex on both a scientific and religious level, I have reached a certain level of maturation to understand how the abuse of sex in this regard is a mortal sin. I pray though, that when I find my future wife, that my conscience and Holy Spirit will renew my strength to maintain the discipline to walk through the halls of temptation and remain untouched.

10 years ago: Homosexuality is just repulsive and disgusting. Allowance of this to be mainstreamed to children as moral and on par with heterosexuality is absurd. Regardless if a guy and a girl have oral or anal sex, they are still compatible in that children can emerge from their union. It is within society’s best interest to promote traditional marriage and to reject the perversion of that institution.

Now: While certainly my views haven’t changed that much on homosexuality, I feel that efforts must be redoubled to debunk this as an “alternative” lifestyle, but educate people that there are health risks that “protection” simply does not negate. I stress the more “materialist” relevancy because as Bishop Sheen has said, “attack them with what they understand”. Materialists are atheistic in belief. No threat of eternal hellfire is going to make one difference to them. If reason is what they cherish, defeat them with that.

10 years ago: Oral and Anal sex still runs the risk of STDs, so if I were to engage in either, I’d probably do it with a girl I’d been going out with for a long time, or failing that, just wait until marriage. I still have the end goal of raising kids, but it’s fine and dandy to do whatever in the confines of marriage and as long both parties consent, right?

Now: Rectal cancer is not your friend. Ever. Period. Funny how sex ed. seemed to leave out the consequences of engaging in oral sex and anal sex. My tax dollars go to fund an incompetent and incomplete class to high school students and after all the nonsense about condoms, protection, etc. somehow managed to forget that constant abuse of parts not designed to function a certain way will damage, and then BREAK them beyond repair which in turn will lead to an untimely and painful demise. While I’m glad I steered clear of this, I can’t help but think that this knowledge may have been a bit more useful earlier. Have you any idea of how bizarre it is to have THIS knowledge while in a breakdown cycle of deprogramming oneself of porn and lust in general? For Pete’s sake you’re masturbating to people murdering themselves over the long-term without any idea of what awaits them! I feel more unclean than the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. At least they had the blessing of complete stupidity in the matter.

 

[Andrew1983]

10 years ago: Abortion is murder you monster! Approving the continuing slaughter of the inborn is worse than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, you infanticidal maniac!

Now: I still hate this sin as the worse thing one person can do to another. I know that I had argued the life of the mother exception in an earlier thread a few months back, and honestly, that hypothetical haunted me. I suppose I always had it, in the back of my mind. Sure, people on this board kept rehashing the letter of the law, but it was to no avail because that was not what I had been asking. No, it would not be until I read History of the Church by Eusebius, would I see St. Peter, our first Pope embrace the Spirit of the Law:

“We are told that when blessed Peter saw his wife led away to death he was glad that her call had come and that she was returning home, and spoke to her in the most encouraging and comforting tones, addressing her by name: ‘My dear, remember the Lord.’ Such was the marriage of the blessed, and their consummate feelings towards their dearest.” - St. Clement, Miscellanies Book VII.

Having read that, my soul is renewed and refreshed. A pity things like this are never brought up in Mass. I can only guess as to why this wasn’t made part of the New Testament Canon.

 

[KathleenGee]

Practical relativism afflicts many Catholics who want the absolute, not a muddled thinking and relating way of God…so they go to the fundamentalists…this the case in Brazil and Latin America…

And for the Catholics who leave, there are many new converts coming in,…I am talking about the USA here.

 

[Javl]

10 years ago: Abortion is murder you monster! Approving the continuing slaughter of the inborn is worse than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, you infanticidal maniac!

Now: I still hate this sin as the worse thing one person can do to another. I know that I had argued the life of the mother exception in an earlier thread a few months back, and honestly, that hypothetical haunted me. I suppose I always had it, in the back of my mind. Sure, people on this board kept rehashing the letter of the law, but it was to no avail because that was not what I had been asking. No, it would not be until I read History of the Church by Eusebius, would I see St. Peter, our first Pope embrace the Spirit of the Law:

Having read that, my soul is renewed and refreshed. A pity things like this are never brought up in Mass. I can only guess as to why this wasn’t made part of the New Testament Canon.

If I am not mistaken, only those things that have to do with our salvation are in the Canon.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[gretahope]

Greta:

Have you reported that verbal abuse to the Bishop? If not, you should. Also confront the nun. Some of them use their position as “religious” to vent their frustrations in life. Also if there’s no action, inform the principal, or whoever is in charge, that you will report it to the newspapers. Sad to say, many times this is about the only way you can get some action.

Also, many blame the Church for the sins of its members. They should know that the Church can only impart the truth and knowledge. The rest is up to its members.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Will do. Thanks for the advice

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

^ This is quoted for truth. The Tridentine Latin Mass is better when it is applied in full.
I don’t really have all the problems you have, but there are some things that you mentioned that seem like a universal problem. My biggest beef is that the Church needs to start hammering this moral relativism garbage and start addressing the key moral crises in the U.S, nay, ALL of Western Civ. I don’t want to go into a church and hear that the Muslims may have some things in common with Catholicism. If I want to hear how great Islam is, I’ll convert to their faith and attend a mosque. Likewise, I already know that deifying the acquisition of material goods isn’t all that important in the grand scheme of things. We don’t need to repeat the same sermon every other week. And a watered down one at that.

Now it’s true that I’m not the exemplary model of a Christian. Far from it. I’ve got my own darkness to destroy, but good grief, with all the moral decay around us, the priests need to start training the parish to be soldiers of God. Not strapping bombs to ourselves and blowing stuff up, mind you, but we need to not just be engaged at a watered down don’t do this, don’t do that level, but hold sermons that address the pressing moral issues of our time while teaching people to be able to defend the faith against the faithless.

At least in my opinion, the most pressing concerns are abortion, sexual perversion (not just homosexuality, but fornication, pornography, etc.), and personal responsibility. Why else do you think Gen Xers like myself leave or left the church?

We’ve received such a brainwashing from popular culture, education, and other influences that it effectively nullified the watered-down lessons to being completely irrelevant.

^ I uphold that everything this fellow said in this post and the following posts are edifying, and hence I give all of it a hardy QFT

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

“Watered-down” is the best adjective phrase in here! Amen. When I go to Mass here in town, watered-down is an understatement. I’d like to see less triumphalism in this forum as well and more seeking to see what Catholics and Protestants have in common.

Honestly, the “hardcore” and “industrial” and “Tiber Swim Team” extreme Catholics in here who love to label people with “Cafeteria Catholic” and all the other talking points and nastiness, they’ve done more to make me NOT want to be Catholic than anything. I wish I had a dollar for every IM I’ve gotten from people telling me that the lack of charity, the triumphalism, the ganging-up, and the nasty tones have actually made them decide NOT to become Catholic. I’d be loaded! We need to look for morally common ground. Most folks in here agree on more than they disagree on. Outside of this forum, in the “real” world, Catholics and Protestants get along much better and work together for moral common causes a lot better than in here!

^ This is quoted for truth. The Tridentine Latin Mass is better when it is applied in full.
I don’t really have all the problems you have, but there are some things that you mentioned that seem like a universal problem. My biggest beef is that the Church needs to start hammering this moral relativism garbage and start addressing the key moral crises in the U.S, nay, ALL of Western Civ. I don’t want to go into a church and hear that the Muslims may have some things in common with Catholicism. If I want to hear how great Islam is, I’ll convert to their faith and attend a mosque. Likewise, I already know that deifying the acquisition of material goods isn’t all that important in the grand scheme of things. We don’t need to repeat the same sermon every other week. And a watered down one at that.

Now it’s true that I’m not the exemplary model of a Christian. Far from it. I’ve got my own darkness to destroy, but good grief, with all the moral decay around us, the priests need to start training the parish to be soldiers of God. Not strapping bombs to ourselves and blowing stuff up, mind you, but we need to not just be engaged at a watered down don’t do this, don’t do that level, but hold sermons that address the pressing moral issues of our time while teaching people to be able to defend the faith against the faithless.

At least in my opinion, the most pressing concerns are abortion, sexual perversion (not just homosexuality, but fornication, pornography, etc.), and personal responsibility. Why else do you think Gen Xers like myself leave or left the church?

We’ve received such a brainwashing from popular culture, education, and other influences that it effectively nullified the watered-down lessons to being completely irrelevant.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Outside of this forum, in the “real” world, Catholics and Protestants get along much better and work together for moral common causes a lot better than in here!

The anonymity and impersonal nature of a computer screen and keyboard tend to inflate people’s egos and shorten their fuses.