Poll on the Canon

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Which books did Luther remove from his translation of the Bible?

Just as a note; eventually, Nicea, you’ll realize that no one will want to have a serious conversation with you on these topics if you continue to be rude, snide, and arrogant in your statements.
They were not listed in the table of contents of his 1523 Old Testament, and they were given the well-known title: “Apocrypha: These Books Are Not Held Equal to the Scriptures, but Are Useful and Good to Read” in the 1534 Bible.
 
They were not listed in the table of contents of his 1523 Old Testament, and they were given the well-known title: “Apocrypha: These Books Are Not Held Equal to the Scriptures, but Are Useful and Good to Read” in the 1534 Bible.
Luther finished his translation in 1534. The finished translation contained 74 books, all of those typically in found in a Western Bible plus The Prayer of Manasses.

A Luther contemporary, Cr. Cajetan, and many others were of the same position concerning the D-C’s. There were many, dating back to Jerome, who considered them “not held equal to scripture”.

Jon
 
Can you provide any documentation that states that Hippo and Carthage were called because of Jerome’s rejection of the deuterocanonicals?

No, it doesn’t surprise me. I understand the Catholic view of Baptism on that matter.

Luther did nothing with the canon of Scripture that hadn’t been done before him. His rejection of the DC books, as well as his questioning of some of the more disputed NT books were his private opinion. His translation of the Greek and Hebrew into German contained all of the books that were present in the Latin Vulgate.
Oh heck no it wasn’t, he wrote a short treties before each book he disliked explaining to the reader why they would be foolish to believe these books were inspired by God. I can’t right now, but later on I’ll post you the intro to James & Revelation (at least). He was quite vocal in his rejection of James, Jude, Hebrews & Revelation, every bit as much as the 7 DC’s. He got taken to task by his fellow reformers for trying to touch the NT, that’s why they’re still there.
 
Oh heck no it wasn’t, he wrote a short treties before each book he disliked explaining to the reader why they would be foolish to believe these books were inspired by God. I can’t right now, but later on I’ll post you the intro to James & Revelation (at least). He was quite vocal in his rejection of James, Jude, Hebrews & Revelation, every bit as much as the 7 DC’s. He got taken to task by his fellow reformers for trying to touch the NT, that’s why they’re still there.
Yes, he did get taken to task for it. Which is why it is his private opinion. If it wasn’t his private opinion, then the books wouldn’t be there.
 
Luther finished his translation in 1534. The finished translation contained 74 books, all of those typically in found in a Western Bible plus The Prayer of Manasses.

A Luther contemporary, Cr. Cajetan, and many others were of the same position concerning the D-C’s. There were many, dating back to Jerome, who considered them “not held equal to scripture”.

Jon
Yes but what many Lutherans and other Protestants NEVER mention about Jerome is that he submitted his own will for the WILL and the AUTHORITY of the church…BIG difference over Luther and others. If I am correct I do not recall reading anything from Jerome who rejected even books from the NT as Luther did.
 
Yes but what many Lutherans and other Protestants NEVER mention about Jerome is that he submitted his own will for the WILL and the AUTHORITY of the church…BIG difference over Luther and others. If I am correct I do not recall reading anything from Jerome who rejected even books from the NT as Luther did.
What is the big difference over Luther and the others? Both Luther and Jerome rejected the DC’s…both of them translated the DC’s and included them in their translations.
 
Yes, he did get taken to task for it. Which is why it is his private opinion. If it wasn’t his private opinion, then the books wouldn’t be there.
This is false logic, the fact that his public campaign to remove these books failed doesn’t mean it was his private opinion. It means it was his very public opinion which was rejected by even his own reformation bretheren. You can’t call it “private” when at the start of the Epistle of James you write:

I do not look upon it as the writing ot any Apostle, and this is my reason. First of all, because in direct opposition to St. Paul, and to all the other Scriptures, it (the Epistle of St. James) attributes justification to the works, and says, Abraham was justified by his works when he sacrificed his son. Whereas St . Paul, Rom. 4, on the contrary, teaches that Abraham was justified without works, through his faith alone

Secondly (I reject the Epistle), because it professes to instruct Christians, and in such a long treatise (lere), it does not even mention the Passion, the Resurrection, the Spirit of Christ . Whatever does not teach Christ, that is not apostolic, even if Peter or Paul were to teach it . Whereas, whatever teaches Christ, that is apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate and Herod were to do it. But this James does nothing else but drive on to the law and to its works, and he mixes up things in such disorder, that I should say he was some good, pious man, who had heard certain sayings from the disciples of the Apostles, and then committed them ,vo paper; or perhaps it (the Epistle) has been taken from his own discourse by some one else Therefore, I will not have him in my Bible in the number of the truly principal books: but I will not forbid any one to place him and to keep him as he pleases.

Emphisis is mine, but imagine this… Maybe Luthers bible is your very first one ever… You read through the “Approved texts”, sans 7 DCs, James, Jude, Hebrews, Revelation… All of the sudden you notice there are “extra books”. You flip through and find James (you would have to flip through all individaul pages, as Luther offered no reference to these books) and the first thing you read is that introduction to the Epistle of James…

Are you really gonig to try and tell me this wasn’t a very public campaign? Are you going to tell me he didn’t have very public motives? :rolleyes: Please…

This is expressly why one can’t reason the Canon of scripture the way in which you want. This is why Staples is correct to make the arguments he does. It is expressly because as Vatican I states, it is not our perogitive to be individuall removing and adding books to the bible. We don’t get to make those choices, they were already made, long ago.

It is our place to accept the Canon as defined by the Church at Hippo, Carthiage 1 & 2, and finally Trent (I think Florance delt with it to, but didn’t dogmaticaly define it).
 
What is the big difference over Luther and the others? Both Luther and Jerome rejected the DC’s…both of them translated the DC’s and included them in their translations.
Jerome submitted to the authority of the Church, when it spoke he shut up and obeyed. This prevented him from becoming a Heretic. How about Luther?
 
This is false logic, the fact that his public campaign to remove these books failed doesn’t mean it was his private opinion. It means it was his very public opinion which was rejected by even his own reformation bretheren. You can’t call it “private” when at the start of the Epistle of James you write:
I didn’t mean “private” opinion in that he kept it to himself. I meant private as in personal opinion.
 
Jerome submitted to the authority of the Church, when it spoke he shut up and obeyed. This prevented him from becoming a Heretic. How about Luther?
On the issue of the canon, what did Luther do that Jerome did not?

And how did we get from the inconsistency between Roman dogma and Roman apologetics to Luther?
 
On the issue of the canon, what did Luther do that Jerome did not?

And how did we get from the inconsistency between Roman dogma and Roman apologetics to Luther?
Obstiently refuse to accept the authority of the Church, that’s the differnece between a heretic and a saint in this case.
I didn’t mean “private” opinion in that he kept it to himself. I meant private as in personal opinion.
Language used to obfuscate the fact that Luther embarked upon a very public campaign to alter the Canon far beyond the 7 DC’s, or even just the OT…
 
=crazzeto;6582910]Obstiently refuse to accept the authority of the Church, that’s the differnece between a heretic and a saint in this case.
Is it your contention that Luther was excommunicated, in any part, because of his personal view of the canon?
Language used to obfuscate the fact that Luther embarked upon a very public campaign to alter the Canon far beyond the 7 DC’s, or even just the OT…
Document that he embarked on a public campaign. If he were so against the D-C’s, why on Earth would he take the time and effort to translate them and include them in his translation. Why would he then go even further, and translate and include an additional book not found in the Catholic canon? Why would he do this when, having already been excommunicated, he was under no obligation to Rome to do so?

What is really sad is that there is a difference between the dissagreements about the canonicity of certain books, the dabates over them, which took place for centuries before the Reformation, and the polemics we hear today about Luther’s translations and personal views. His personal views were quite mainstream for his time.

Jon
 
Yes but what many Lutherans and other Protestants NEVER mention about Jerome is that he submitted his own will for the WILL and the AUTHORITY of the church…BIG difference over Luther and others. If I am correct I do not recall reading anything from Jerome who rejected even books from the NT as Luther did.
I suspect that St. Jerome was never required to submit to the abuses of indulgences and that of private masses.

Again, Luther never rejected any books of the NT. Did he question some? Yes, like many others did. Luther’s opinions of James, for example, were not out of the mainstream of his time and prior.

Jon
 
I suspect that St. Jerome was never required to submit to the abuses of indulgences and that of private masses.

Again, Luther never rejected any books of the NT. Did he question some? Yes, like many others did. Luther’s opinions of James, for example, were not out of the mainstream of his time and prior.

Jon
First of all,the issue here is the canon of the OT,not the abuses of indulgences or private masses.As a cradle Catholic I know my Catholic history,the good and bad.

He questioned them and if I am correct did not remove them do to Desiderius Erasmus convincing him not to remove them.
 
First of all,the issue here is the canon of the OT,not the abuses of indulgences or private masses.As a cradle Catholic I know my Catholic history,the good and bad.
You indirectly brought up the issues that caused Luther to not submit when you said;
Yes but what many Lutherans and other Protestants NEVER mention about Jerome is that he submitted his own will for the WILL and the AUTHORITY of the church…BIG difference over Luther and others. If I am correct I do not recall reading anything from Jerome who rejected even books from the NT as Luther did.
Why would Luther feel moved to submit to Rome regarding the canon of scripture when his translation came after his excommunication. Luther’s alleged failure to submit to the will and the authority of the Church had nothing to do with his view of the canon or his translation.

Jon
 
Is it your contention that Luther was excommunicated, in any part, because of his personal view of the canon?

Document that he embarked on a public campaign. If he were so against the D-C’s, why on Earth would he take the time and effort to translate them and include them in his translation. Why would he then go even further, and translate and include an additional book not found in the Catholic canon? Why would he do this when, having already been excommunicated, he was under no obligation to Rome to do so?

What is really sad is that there is a difference between the dissagreements about the canonicity of certain books, the dabates over them, which took place for centuries before the Reformation, and the polemics we hear today about Luther’s translations and personal views. His personal views were quite mainstream for his time.

Jon
Interesting view,but if one really thinks about it, it is irrevelant. And why? Because every doctrine has been questioned or rejected by many throughout the centuries. Jehovah Witnesses deny and reject two core Christian doctrines: Trinity and Incarantion. Does not matter,the church defined them and made them official long before the JW’s existed. It is a well known fact the early church used the LXX as its Bible and even my Protestant Study Bibles all state the same.
 
Interesting view,but if one really thinks about it, it is irrevelant. And why? Because every doctrine has been questioned or rejected by many throughout the centuries. Jehovah Witnesses deny and reject two core Christian doctrines: Trinity and Incarantion. Does not matter,the church defined them and made them official long before the JW’s existed. It is a well known fact the early church used the LXX as its Bible and even my Protestant Study Bibles all state the same.
There is a major difference between questioning and rejecting. I think a charitable dialogue about the different views on the canon is valuable (not irrelevent) today, just as it was for St. Jerome through the centuries to Luther and Cajetan.
I know there are some on both sides that disagree.

Jon
 
Option 3: The Roman Catholic Church, in virtue of her apostolic authority, determined the canon of Scripture. Sacred Scripture is inspired by God, is infallible, and without error. However, without the authority of the bishops of the church, we could not recognize which books are canonical or non-canonical. The Scriptures cannot canonize themselves, therefore, the canon is wholly dependent on the authority of the church.
 
Is it your contention that Luther was excommunicated, in any part, because of his personal view of the canon?

Document that he embarked on a public campaign. If he were so against the D-C’s, why on Earth would he take the time and effort to translate them and include them in his translation. Why would he then go even further, and translate and include an additional book not found in the Catholic canon? Why would he do this when, having already been excommunicated, he was under no obligation to Rome to do so?

What is really sad is that there is a difference between the dissagreements about the canonicity of certain books, the dabates over them, which took place for centuries before the Reformation, and the polemics we hear today about Luther’s translations and personal views. His personal views were quite mainstream for his time.

Jon
I did, I gave you the very text from the very bible that he wrote, had printed and distributed all over Germany. A bible which affirms the idea that James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation might well have been written by Satan him self. This constitutes a public campagin to defrock 4 NT books in the bible, along with the 7 he succesfully defrocked…
 
I did, I gave you the very text from the very bible that he wrote, had printed and distributed all over Germany. A bible which affirms the idea that James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation might well have been written by Satan him self. This constitutes a public campagin to defrock 4 NT books in the bible, along with the 7 he succesfully defrocked…
And yet you make no mention of Roman Catholic clergy and scholars at the same time who expressed similar views on which books were and were not canonical, why?

EDIT: And where it what you quoted does it say that James, Jude, Revelation et al. were written by Satan? Also, this quote only appears in Luther’s original 1522 Preface to the New Testament. After 1522, all the editions of Luther’s Bible dropped the “epistle of straw” comment, along with the entire paragraph that placed value judgments on particular biblical books. It was Luther himself who edited these comments out.
 
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