POLL on understanding of economic Procession

[mardukm]

This poll is conceivably ONLY for Eastern and Oriental Christians, but I left options for Latin Christians also.

How should the economic procession be understood?

(1) The Holy Spirit deity entire (i.e., Essence and Energy) proceeds through the Son in the economic procession, but the creature can only experience the Energy.

(2) The Holy Spirit proceeds through the Son only as Energy, and thus the creature can only experience the Energy.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Zekariya]

If this might be of any help to anyone on this topic, St Cyril of Alexandria on the procession:

“For even if the Spirit exists in his own hupostasis, and moreover is considered by himself insofar as he is the Spirit and not the Son, yet he is not therefore alien from the Son, for he is called the Spirit of truth and Christ is the truth, and the Spirit proceeds from him, just as undoubtedly he also proceeds from God the Father.” - St Cyril of Alexandria, Letter 17:17 (Third Letter to Nestorius)
Translated by John I. McEnerney

Another translation:
“For even though the Spirit exist in His Own Person, and is conceived of by Himself, inasmuch as He is the Spirit and not the Son, yet is He not therefore alien from Him; for He is called the Spirit of truth, and Christ is the Truth, and He proceedeth from Him, just as from God the Father.” - St Cyril of Alexandria, Letter 17:17 (Third Letter to Nestorius)
Edited and translated by P. E. Pusey, Oxford, 1872

The Greek:
Ει γαρ και εστιν εν υποστει το Πνευμα ιδικη, και δη και νοειται καθ εαυτο, καθο Πνευμα εστι, και ουχ Υιος αλλ ουν εστιν ουκ αλλοτριον αυτου Πνευμα γαρ αληθειας ωνομασται, και εστι Χριστος η αληθεια και προχειται παρ αυτου, καθαπερ αμελει και εκ του Θεου και Πατρος. - Αγιος Κυριλλος Αλεξανδρειας, Επιστολή 17:17

The Latin translation:
Nam etsi Spiritus in propria persona subsistat, eatenusque in seipso consideretur, quatenus Spiritus et non Filius; non est tamen ab eo alienus; quandoquidem Spiritus veritatis nominatur; Christus autem veritas est; et proinde quoque abillo, atque a Deo Patre procedit. - Cyrillus Alexandrinus Sanctus, Epistula 17:17

 

[Aramis]

You left off “It’s a Holy Mystery, and beyond my competence. Let Father incense it.”

 

[ConstantineTG]

You left off “It’s a Holy Mystery, and beyond my competence. Let Father incense it.”

Amen.

 

[mardukm]

You left off “It’s a Holy Mystery, and beyond my competence. Let Father incense it.”

There’s an option for “I’m not sure” which would cover it.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Zekariya]

Fire = God the Father
Heat = God the Son
Light = God the Holy Spirit

The Filioque reconciled. Using a Trinitarian argument based on the Fathers:
Fire begets Heat. Light proceeds from the Fire. Scientifically speaking, heat generates light.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Fire = God the Father
Heat = God the Son
Light = God the Holy Spirit

The Filioque reconciled. Using a Trinitarian argument based on the Fathers:
Fire begets Heat. Light proceeds from the Fire. Scientifically speaking, heat generates light.

Actually, scientifically speaking, light generates heat. Light energy can transform to heat energy, such as when it is dead winter and it is sunny out and the sun is shining through a room with many windows. The room becomes warm. Heat is not transferred through through the cold winter air, only light. But once light hits solid matter in the room and is dispersed, it builds up to heat.

 

[mardukm]

Remember folks that we are speaking here about the ECONOMIC Procession. We are not discussing the principles of hypostatic origination.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Zekariya]

Actually, scientifically speaking, light generates heat. Light energy can transform to heat energy, such as when it is dead winter and it is sunny out and the sun is shining through a room with many windows. The room becomes warm. Heat is not transferred through through the cold winter air, only light. But once light hits solid matter in the room and is dispersed, it builds up to heat.

I’m not trying to disagree with you, but here is my source: science.howstuffworks.com/light9.htm

Perhaps it can work both ways depending on the circumstances?

 

[Zekariya]

Remember folks that we are speaking here about the ECONOMIC Procession. We are not discussing the principles of hypostatic origination.

Blessings,
Marduk

I’m not that knowledgable on what the “economic” part of economic procession means. I might know what you mean under a different form of wording. Perhaps you could give me a short definition? I’d appreciate that.

 

[mardukm]

Fire = God the Father
Heat = God the Son
Light = God the Holy Spirit

The Filioque reconciled. Using a Trinitarian argument based on the Fathers:
Fire begets Heat. Light proceeds from the Fire. Scientifically speaking, heat generates light.

Thank you, brother Zekariya. That is a very Oriental understanding of the distinctions. Though I would offer a minor correction that in the way the Fathers use the analogy, it is actually the fire that generates both the light and the heat, and the heat is transmitted from the fire by the agency of the light (scientifically speaking). Of course, from a purely scientific perspective, your statement that light can be generated from heat is true - all I’m saying is that this is not the way the Fathers used the analogy because the scientific means and knowledge to understand that heat can generate light was not yet available to the Fathers long ago.

In view of this oft-used analogy by the Fathers in reference to the economic procession, one can see that the fire, the light and the heat can never be separated from the perspective of the fire, light, and heat. But from the perspective of the one who experiences it, the heat can SEEM to be separated from the light. For instance, if we are in a darkened room, we can experience the heat that is transmitted from the fire by the agency of the light, though we do not see the fire or the light. But if one imagines heat in and of itself, it “knows” that it can never have any existence that is separated from the fire and light.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

I’m not that knowledgable on what the “economic” part of economic procession means. I might know what you mean under a different form of wording. Perhaps you could give me a short definition? I’d appreciate that.

“The Economy” is a theological term generally used to refer to the plan of God’s salvation of His creation.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear Readers,

AFAIK, this issue has never been dogmatized from the perspective of the Catholic Church. So I hope no one has any reservations about expressing their personal opinions on the matter. No one here will brand you a heretic for expressing your personal opinions on the matter.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Zekariya]

Thank you, brother Zekariya. That is a very Oriental understanding of the distinctions. Though I would offer a minor correction that in the way the Fathers use the analogy, it is actually the fire that generates both the light and the heat, and the heat is transmitted from the fire by the agency of the light (scientifically speaking). Of course, from a purely scientific perspective, your statement that light can be generated from heat is true - all I’m saying is that this is not the way the Fathers used the analogy because the scientific means and knowledge to understand that heat can generate light was not yet available to the Fathers long ago.

In view of this oft-used analogy by the Fathers in reference to the economic procession, one can see that the fire, the light and the heat can never be separated from the perspective of the fire, light, and heat. But from the perspective of the one who experiences it, the heat can SEEM to be separated from the light. For instance, if we are in a darkened room, we can experience the heat that is transmitted from the fire by the agency of the light, though we do not see the fire or the light. But if one imagines heat in and of itself, it “knows” that it can never have any existence that is separated from the fire and light.

Blessings,
Marduk

Thanks! I agree with what you have said, excepting, I am still convinced that science has shown that heat produces light. Heating an iron produces light as we see with blacksmiths. Heating the coil in a light bulb using electricity produces light as well. Theologically, I agree wholeheartedly with what you have said.

Thanks, brother!

 

[Zekariya]

“The Economy” is a theological term generally used to refer to the plan of God’s salvation of His creation.

Blessings,
Marduk

Gotcha! 8)

 

[ConstantineTG]

Dear Readers,

AFAIK, this issue has never been dogmatized from the perspective of the Catholic Church. So I hope no one has any reservations about expressing their personal opinions on the matter. No one here will brand you a heretic for expressing your personal opinions on the matter.

Blessings,
Marduk

So you mean it is professed in the Creed but not dogma?

 

[Zekariya]

What is taught in the Creed is orthodox doctrine that must be accepted by all Catholics (though each may choose to profess their Rite’s translation and wording of the Creed).

The phrase, “τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον” is compatible with “Qui ex Patre Filioque procedit”, as the Latin Creed’s “procedit” does not mean the same thing as the Greek Creed’s “ἐκπορευόμενον”.

Interesting article by EWTN on the topic of ἐκπορευόμενον and procedit:ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUFILQ.HTM

 

[mardukm]

So you mean it is professed in the Creed but not dogma?

As far as the economic procession and the Holy Spirit, the only thing that the Creed states are: “The Lord, the Giver of Life,” “He has spoken through the prophets” and “by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary.”

The particular focus of this thread (i.e., whether in the Economy, it is the full deity of the Holy Spirit that flows through the Son, or is it only the Holy Spirit as Energy that flows through the Son) has not been dogmatized, AFAIK. Has it been dogmatized from the Eastern perspective? If so, on what authority?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ConstantineTG]

As far as the economic procession and the Holy Spirit, the only thing that the Creed states are: “The Lord, the Giver of Life,” “He has spoken through the prophets” and “by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary.”

The particular focus of this thread (i.e., whether in the Economy, it is the full deity of the Holy Spirit that flows through the Son, or is it only the Holy Spirit as Energy that flows through the Son) has not been dogmatized, AFAIK. Has it been dogmatized from the Eastern perspective? If so, on what authority?

Blessings,
Marduk

So you mean the Latins added the Filioque without understanding what it really means?

 

[Zekariya]

The particular focus of this thread (i.e., whether in the Economy, it is the full deity of the Holy Spirit that flows through the Son, or is it only the Holy Spirit as Energy that flows through the Son) has not been dogmatized, AFAIK.

Since the West doesn’t traditionally distinguish between essence and energy, I’d say that it hasn’t been dogmatized in the Catholic Church.

I don’t think that the EOs have dogmatized anything since Nicea II (I could be wrong though).