Really, so you’re saying that this view is compatible with Vatican II? It certainly doesn’t seem to be. I am still not a member of the Catholic Church (although I wish to be). I am “outside the church.” By this system, is salvation not available for me?
Only God knows.
You know, I kind of copped out on my last reply. I guess I would say that it is possible for Protestants to be saved and the Church has taught as much. But, the state of your soul or salvation is certainly not my business, it’s God’s business. The surest path to salvation is within the visible confines of the Catholic Church and this is the clear teaching of the Church.
Through your desire, you are as saved as any catholic here. I am still working out my salvation in fear and trembling as we all must.
You know invincible ignorance used to be the exception now it’s the rule.First off, Dancus. I am simply saying what the Church teaches, and for that I am a bigot? I don’t think so. I said if they repented they would be saved. And I already explained in previous posts that I am not of the opinion that somebody who leaves the Church to become Protestant qualifies for Invicible Ignorance. That is my opinion. I’m not saying that, that itself is Church teaching. There is room for debate, simply because nobody can know what another person knows or doesn’t, only God knows. However, it is my stated OPINION that nobody who apostates out of the Church is invicibly ignorant. Now there might be exceptions, like somebody who was baptized Catholic but wasn’t raised in it etc. And Dancus, here’s a heads up for you, like it or not it is the most likely belief that MILLIONS if not BILLIONS have gone to Hell. Jesus Himself said the Path is Narrow, and not many people would find it. Then there are different approved apparitions that have backed that up. If you want to hold hope, that’s fine. But don’t call me a bigot just because I hold a realistic position. I myself have apostated and reverted, and I would have gone to Hell if I hadn’t repented and come back to the Church as I have now. If you want to candy coat the action of apostating, go right ahead. I won’t call you names for it. More than I can say for you. Trumpet, if you wish to be a Catholic, then you have a chance for salvation. Besides, everyone has salvation available to them, it’s called The Catholic Church. Anybody can join.
Invincible ignorance is a tenet applicable only in certain narrow cases and this is not one of them. First things first, I am a Catholic. A titular one at best but still a Catholoic. Simply because I refuse to hold narrow minded dicta as fact changes nothing I am quite familiar with the words of Jesus when he speaks of the narrow way. Also the words “He who believes in me has everlasting life.” Also, “No one comes to the Father but by me.” Nowhere in those quotes, and others. do I read me followed and the Catholic Church. Neither implicitly or explicity! If you have access to, or own a MMS or bible, that contains the addendum Catholic Church it is invaluable. Such a document would cause a furor in the Academic world, not to mention the Religious world. As to the billions. per your reference, who have been condemmed to hell. Excuse me, I didn’t know I was debating with simeone who reads the mind of our Almighty Father.
Are you calling the teachings of the Catholic Church “narrow minded dicta”? Calling oneself a “titular” Catholic or a “nominal” Catholic (as in your profile, may be honest. But I would hope that it isn’t a place you care to stay.
Are you an infallible interpreter of Scripture?
****Council of Florence (1438-1445) (****From the Bull “Cantate Domino”, February 4, 1441) It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.
It is a place I’m quite content with. I pray twice a day to basicly the same Saints you do. I don’t pray by rote as many are wont to do and that Jesus warned against. Incidently I always end asking for mercy and salvation for all sinners whom so ever. Not just for Catholics but for Jews, Christians, Moslem, Buddists, all sinners. Any who worships one Supreme God in heaven. Whatever name they may call Him by in their native tongue. To cite Jesus “In his Fathers House are many mansions.” I’m not saying heaven is segregated, simply that there’s a place for everyone in Gods realm. If my philosophy offends anyone, I’m sorry. As the old C&W song goes, “I’m not puttin’ you down or speakin’ to you unkind.”
Sure sounds like a typical Protestant criticism of Catholic prayer. Certainly, you as a Catholic are not required to use rote prayers, but neither should you feel in any way morally superior because you don’t and other Catholics do. Indeed, the Mass is a “rote prayer” and it is the most beautiful of all prayers or form of worship for Catholics.
I have no idea who was, who is, and who will be saved…only God knows. I though I stated this earlier.
Interesting Question.
Being born again happens at the sacrament of baptism. If this Catholic had no real relationship with God (meaning, he was not in the state of grace), he can only have a real relationship with God by being in the state of grace again.
Well it all depends. Protestantism is a heresy (something that’s objectively a sin against faith – even though that that person might not be guilty of it).
I am only referring to the first sentence in the above quote, nothing else. I resent that statement and find it offensive and infantile. Not only for myself but for my Non-Catholic friends and peers. I have stated I’m simply engaging in, up to now, polite debate. However it seems your desire is to take the gloves off and have an street brawl. If that’s your wish you’ll find me more then willing and able. However if it isn’t a simple apology will suffice. Dan