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BlyssfulDreamer
Guest
I think there should be a parish in every diocese that offers the TLM. Ours does and it is graet.
:heart:Blyss
:heart:Blyss
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C
Catholig
Guest
I chose “Mandate at least one TLM Mass per parish”, because while I have nothing against the NO Mass it is extremely difficult to find a “local” indult TLM around where I am. I mean seriously if they scheduled a Daily TLM at every parish then those who want the TLM can attend, and those that don’t care whether it is the NOM or TLM can attend, and those that just NEED to go to Mass can still attend. It would really expose people to the Traditional Mass.
Catholig
Catholig
R
rlg94086
Guest
I’m not certain that is a good idea. It sounds good on the surface, but I am concerned that the same disregard for the rubrics of the Paul VI Mass will be existant in the TLM at those parishes.I chose “Mandate at least one TLM Mass per parish”, because while I have nothing against the NO Mass it is extremely difficult to find a “local” indult TLM around where I am. I mean seriously if they scheduled a Daily TLM at every parish then those who want the TLM can attend, and those that don’t care whether it is the NOM or TLM can attend, and those that just NEED to go to Mass can still attend. It would really expose people to the Traditional Mass.
Catholig
L
LilyM
Guest
Whereas one of my local parishes - where the priest has brought in Greek for the Kyrie and Latin for the Sanctus and Agnus Dei - has seen a very sharp drop in numbers even in the six months or so since he instituted this. So you can’t be certain that numbers will automatically increase if the TLM is reintroduced in a parish.Attendance and giving has increased over the last few years at our parish, as our priest has introduced more and more Latin and orthodoxy. We meet or exceed our budget requirements (+2.3%, ~$14.5k for the year), and that more than pays for any vestment requirements.
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BobP123
Guest
Many, if not most, Catholic churches have been restructured so as not to be reminded of their heritage. (Altar rails removed, high altars removed, tables secured, etc.) It would be indeed tough to bring in the TLM and not only because of the liturgy but what it represents. It will be a tough restoration. Only refurbished old churches or (costly) new ones can really start pecking away at the infrastructure necessary to make the Catholic Church flourish again in some, if not most, countries.I’m not certain that is a good idea. It sounds good on the surface, but I am concerned that the same disregard for the rubrics of the Paul VI Mass will be existant in the TLM at those parishes.
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kellyanne
Guest
I thought the poll showed a good bit of prejudice:Is it possible, or even conceivable, that the Mass of Paul VI could be completely replaced by the TLM?
Option to “ban the Pauline mass completely.”
No option to select “ban the TLM completely.”
No, I do not believe it is even conceivable.
Kell
R
rescath
Guest
Only a complete banning of the Novus Ordo Missae can help begin the restoration of the Church.
K
kellyanne
Guest
:tsktsk: Rescath!
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rlg94086
Guest
A fair response. I didn’t say I was certain of anything…just sharing what has been happening in my Paul VI rite parish. A lot has to do with the priest. This is another reason I am concerned about mandating TLM in every parish.Whereas one of my local parishes - where the priest has brought in Greek for the Kyrie and Latin for the Sanctus and Agnus Dei - has seen a very sharp drop in numbers even in the six months or so since he instituted this. So you can’t be certain that numbers will automatically increase if the TLM is reintroduced in a parish.
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rlg94086
Guest
Exactly. Imagine, if you will, a priest being mandated to offer the TLM, who just modifies things to suit his parish’s needs and capabilities. Female servers, table instead of altar, tabernacle off to the side, etc.Many, if not most, Catholic churches have been restructured so as not to be reminded of their heritage. (Altar rails removed, high altars removed, tables secured, etc.) It would be indeed tough to bring in the TLM and not only because of the liturgy but what it represents. It will be a tough restoration. Only refurbished old churches or (costly) new ones can really start pecking away at the infrastructure necessary to make the Catholic Church flourish again in some, if not most, countries.
R
rtconstant
Guest
This is something that traditionalists are going to have to get ready for. The more common place the TLM becomes the more likely it is to be abused. Just like back in the day when it was the only mass it was abused. The TLM seems above that now because only those who truely love it are active in it. Just like Pauline masses tend to be performed well where the liturgy is respected.Exactly. Imagine, if you will, a priest being mandated to offer the TLM, who just modifies things to suit his parish’s needs and capabilities. Female servers, table instead of altar, tabernacle off to the side, etc.
The abuses in liturgy are not a product of the Mass itself but of a general attitude within the world which has spread into the Church. In places where that the rubrics of the NO are abused the rubrics of the TLM will be abused (Well if the TLM become widespread anyway).
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
I didn’t pick any poll option, simply because I think re-implementing the TLM will be very sensitive no matter how it’s done and there should probably be some wiggle room for exactly how to balance creating availability with the need to expose people slowly and not lose them with another whirlwind of change. I don’t think mandating one TLM per parish is a good idea precisely because there are some priests who shouldn’t be saying it - if they have no respect for tradition or the Church in their celebration of the Pauline rite I honestly have no desire for them to be forced into saying yet another rite for them to abuse.
I would probably opt for a system of every priest can schedule Masses as he sees fit within certain limits of reasonable attention to the wishes and needs of the parishioners - e.g, if 90% of the parish wants a Pauline Mass, he shouldn’t be able to say the TLM exclusively, and vice versa. One need that really needs to be addressed, though, is the availability of holy week and other big feasts to the TLM community. I attend a parish with one indult Mass out of four weekend Masses. The pastor (and presumably the rest of the community) are great about scheduling the evening Mass on holy days as a TLM to give us availability, but I’ve never experienced a traditional holy week since those liturgies are tied to specific times and I’m sure trying to do double duty would break our already far-stretched pastor. Ensuring a full availability of the TLM, then, might involve some sort of geographic requirement or the erection of a few fully TLM parishes.
Concerning vestments, new sets would not have to be purchased, because albs and chasubles can take all sorts of forms, and a search of TLM pics will reveal that the Gothic cut is just as much a part of traditional liturgy as the Roman. Most parishes would need, however, to purchase maniples to fill out their sets, and since the amice seems to be a rara avis nowadays they would need to get some of these, as well. Hopefully those that have also abandoned the cincture would still have some lying around. Traditional parishes would already have everything but the maniples, less traditional ones would have to buy more but the required items are the smallest and least ornate. All that said about strict necessity, though, I think I’ve seen enough ugle chasubles in my day to be able to say most parishes wanting to add a TLM should get new vestments.
I would probably opt for a system of every priest can schedule Masses as he sees fit within certain limits of reasonable attention to the wishes and needs of the parishioners - e.g, if 90% of the parish wants a Pauline Mass, he shouldn’t be able to say the TLM exclusively, and vice versa. One need that really needs to be addressed, though, is the availability of holy week and other big feasts to the TLM community. I attend a parish with one indult Mass out of four weekend Masses. The pastor (and presumably the rest of the community) are great about scheduling the evening Mass on holy days as a TLM to give us availability, but I’ve never experienced a traditional holy week since those liturgies are tied to specific times and I’m sure trying to do double duty would break our already far-stretched pastor. Ensuring a full availability of the TLM, then, might involve some sort of geographic requirement or the erection of a few fully TLM parishes.
Concerning vestments, new sets would not have to be purchased, because albs and chasubles can take all sorts of forms, and a search of TLM pics will reveal that the Gothic cut is just as much a part of traditional liturgy as the Roman. Most parishes would need, however, to purchase maniples to fill out their sets, and since the amice seems to be a rara avis nowadays they would need to get some of these, as well. Hopefully those that have also abandoned the cincture would still have some lying around. Traditional parishes would already have everything but the maniples, less traditional ones would have to buy more but the required items are the smallest and least ornate. All that said about strict necessity, though, I think I’ve seen enough ugle chasubles in my day to be able to say most parishes wanting to add a TLM should get new vestments.
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