Poll: Romney may see an evangelical ‘enthusiasm gap’

[Porknpie]

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (1 John 4:15). Jesus is fully God because he was given this authority by His Father. (John 5:26-27) Jesus prayed to His Father and called Him “the only true God.” (John 17:3) They are one in authority and purpose and therefore there is one God. “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30) John tells us exactly what this means:

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.” (John 17:20-22)

I would suggest that you spend less time seeking proof from the ex-Mormons and more time studying the Scriptures. Maybe then there will be more enthusiasm for Mitt Romney. And, if you really believe Latter-day Saints are your brothers in Jesus Christ,** please stop calling us fools.** (Matt. 5:22)

MTOlympus -

You were the one that brought up the word “foolishness” and thus, opened the door to a response. AND I never called you a fool ! Don’t put words in my mouth I said :

**To discern what is faith and foolishness, **I suggest that you do what Joseph Smith did. Put a rock in a bag, then put your head in the bag and “feel” whether this teaching is foolish or not. Meditate on what is truth. Someone coming along 1800+ years after Jesus who proclaims he is a prophet (let alone your current President is a prophet) or a church that has unbroken apostolic succession since St. Peter. At a minimum, to the subject of this post, as you are doing so, try to think why Evangelicals can not get too enthused about Mitt.

Your beliefs ARE foolish. :hypno: That is true. But you as a human are being misled. Now, if you continue in those beliefs after being presented the truth…then an argument could be made for calling you a f**l. I give you acclaim for being on this website. :clapping::clapping: Use it to discern the truth about Mormonism and ask a lot of questions. I can’t even call Mitt one, because I honestly don’t know what he believes or what truth has been presented to him.

The Catholic church has a lot of “relics” of Saints including preserved pieces of bone(s) and items that the Saints have touched (we are now up to Catholicism level 200). Does the Mormon church have the bag and rock Joseph Smith put his head into? If so, where do they keep it? I hear that the golden tablets are also missing and that they even lost the papyrus used for the Book of Abraham. They have a hard time holding on to things. But now that the Egyptian pyrus was returned to the Mormon church that Joseph Smith used to translate the Book Of Abraham, what did it say say? Nothing about the BoA, instead it was ALL about an Egyptian (pagan) funeral text. Again, the BoA was a lie from Joseph Smith.

Let’s summarize:

• The Book of Mormon … translated by a man with his head in a bag
• The Book of Abraham … mis-translated from papyrus from the same man.

The truth will set you free. Keep searching, questioning and discerning. Any ex-Mormons on this website are welcome to comment and help MTOlympus on what to do next. Back to the topic of the board, Evangelicals have a hard time supporting Mitt. Do you understand why??

 

[Lucky7]

Everyone should realize that there is more than one definition of a Christian. The original definition was a follower or disciple of Christ. (Acts 11:26) Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe in Jesus Christ and try to adhere to His teachings. They certainly believe they are Christians.

Most Mormons do not realize that the official definition of “Christian” by the Catholic Church and most protestants is that a Christian is one who adheres to the belief of the Triune God as defined in the Nicene Creed, (Trinitarian). All agree that Mormons do not believe this.

Latter-day Saints are Christians but they are not Trinitarians.

Your original definition of follower or disciple of Christ is incomplete. Christians have identified with the Trinity for nearly 2,000 years. Why would that truth all of a sudden change when Joseph Smith came along? I will never understand how Unitarian and Trinitarian can both be Christian.

 

[RebeccaJ]

…and not particularly called for.

Jon

I’m just not getting the correlation between reading scripture and having enthusiasm for a particular politician.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Jesus is fully God because he was given this authority by His Father.

“This authority”? God is not an authority that is given to others. God IS.

John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.
John 1:4 through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race
1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

**God is the author of our lives, now, and forever.
**
John 5:27 And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
John 5:22 Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to his Son

**Judgment is a divine prerogative, ie, only GOD can judge. **Psalm 43:1 Grant me justice, O God;

Luke 21:36 Be vigilant at all times and pray that you have the strength to escape the tribulations that are imminent and to stand before the Son of Man.

Jesus prayed to His Father and called Him “the only true God.”

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. (This verse was clearly added in the editing of the gospel as a reflection on the preceding verse; Jesus nowhere else refers to himself as Jesus Christ.)

John 17:2 just as you gave him authority over all people,so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him.
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given everything over to him.
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Jesus, quoting Daniel 7:14)
Daniel 7:14 He received dominion, splendor, and kingship; all nations, peoples and tongues will serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed.

Jesus here claims universal power. **Only GOD has universal power.
**

They are one in authority and purpose and therefore there is one God.

Yes, exactly. There is ONE GOD. Begin there.

Deut 4:35 All this you were allowed to see that you might know that the LORD is God; **there is no other
**
Deut 4:39 This is why you must now acknowledge, and fix in your heart, that the LORD is God in the heavens above and on earth below, and that there is no other
Deut 32:39 See now that I, I alone, am he, and there is no god besides me.
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone!

John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.”

Jesus reveals Himself. Why not believe that Jesus’ words and deeds are the words and deeds of God. Jesus IS the Word of God.

John tells us exactly what this means:

John 17:20-22"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

John 14:10-11 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

1 John 1:1-2
What was from the beginning,
what we have heard,
what we have seen with our eyes,
what we looked upon
and touched with our hands
concerns the Word of life—
2
for the life was made visible;
we have seen it and testify to it
and proclaim to you the eternal life
that was with the Father and was made visible to us—

Jesus IS God. God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God has revealed Himself as ONE. There is but ONE GOD, and no other.

 

[mtolympus]

I’m just not getting the correlation between reading scripture and having enthusiasm for a particular politician.

I understand why my comment would be confusing. What I meant was, I try to use scripture to explain what I believe about God, but If I really thought Mitt Romney believed what I have read on this post, I wouldn’t by enthused about him either.
I always appreciate your use of scripture to explain what you believe. Thank you!

 

[Porknpie]

I understand why my comment would be confusing. What I meant was, I try to use scripture to explain what I believe about God, but If I really thought Mitt Romney believed what I have read on this post, I wouldn’t by enthused about him either.
I always appreciate your use of scripture to explain what you believe. Thank you!

MTOlympus - Rebecca gets an A+ in citing scripture to explain not only her belief but the belief of Christianity, Catholicism included, from the time of the apostles and Jesus ascension to present day. I know you give me a lessor grade, but I hope to improve! Per your comment above, what Mormon beliefs have been stated on this post that would make you not enthused?

Evangelicals have a hard time supporting Mitt. Do you understand why

 

[Patavium]

Better Romney than Obama. Obama has shown complete disregard towards Christians.

Are we going to keep Obama and continue the increasing trend of Christianophobia in the USA?

 

[Porknpie]

Hey Pork,
I am old enough to recall, mainly in the years following, the discussion about JFK and that he would “serve the pope” as president since he was Catholic. While not entirely the same, I would hope most folks are able enough to separate the faith issue from the politics. And I wonder if you think the same issues might have raised up again with Santorum or Gingrich.

Jon

Jon, I have no doubt that some of the same people whom are hesitant to vote for Romney would be hesitant to vote for a Catholic, including evangelicals. For the record, Romney has my vote but without enthusiasm as we have two bad choices. I don’t worry about Mitt advocating his faith but I don’t know what the outcome will be for the Mormon church recruitment efforts.

 

[mtolympus]

You were the one that brought up the word “foolishness” and thus, opened the door to a response. AND I never called you a fool ! Don’t put words in my mouth

You are absolutely correct on that and I apologize.

I did visit the Catholic cathedral in Salt Lake City a few years ago, very beautiful. Thanks for inviting me. I have also enjoyed visiting cathedrals in Spain and many of the missions in California.

 

[mtolympus]

MTOlympus - Rebecca gets an A+ in citing scripture to explain not only her belief but the belief of Christianity, Catholicism included, from the time of the apostles and Jesus ascension to present day. I know you give me a lessor grade, but I hope to improve! Per your comment above, what Mormon beliefs have been stated on this post that would make you not enthused?

I would say it is more a matter of negative spin to make the teachings of the LDS church sound as foolish as possible and the leaders a bunch of evil money grubbers, (though there are many posts that really do try to be fair.) The same negative spin tactics could be (and are) used against the Catholic Church by anti-catholics to create the same kind of negative opinion of the Catholic Church and its members who might be political candidates. I believe that in this nation there is currently an assalt on all the religions that believe in Jesus Christ and the standards they hold dear. I am enthused about Mitt Romney as the man who can lead our country and fight to keep our religious liberties that we enjoy today.

 

[JonNC]

Jon, I have no doubt that some of the same people whom are hesitant to vote for Romney would be hesitant to vote for a Catholic, including evangelicals. For the record, Romney has my vote but without enthusiasm as we have two bad choices. I don’t worry about Mitt advocating his faith but I don’t know what the outcome will be for the Mormon church recruitment efforts.

Not much, I suspect. Surely less than JFK was for Catholicism (that would be an interesting stat to see). Romney bothers me more in a political way, more than theological. that’s where my lack of enthusiasm comes from. The old designation was “Rockefeller Republican”. Romney’s dad was one (no nice things to say about him after he knifed “AUH2O” in the back in 64), and so is Mitt.

Jon

 

[Porknpie]

I would say it is more a matter of negative spin to make the teachings of the LDS church sound as foolish as possible and the leaders a bunch of evil money grubbers, (though there are many posts that really do try to be fair.) The same negative spin tactics could be (and are) used against the Catholic Church by anti-catholics to create the same kind of negative opinion of the Catholic Church and its members who might be political candidates. I believe that in this nation there is currently an assalt on all the religions that believe in Jesus Christ and the standards they hold dear. I am enthused about Mitt Romney as the man who can lead our country and fight to keep our religious liberties that we enjoy today.

MTOlympus, so what is the “spin” that you are referring to? If I am presenting any facts wrong or if I am interpreting something wrong, correct me and I will apologize. You said :

I understand why my comment would be confusing. What I meant was, I try to use scripture to explain what I believe about God, but If I really thought Mitt Romney believed what I have read on this post, I wouldn’t by enthused about him either.

Now you are accusing me of distorting the facts (definition of spin) after saying that I called you a fool and did not? OK. Now. know that I have already foregiven you but still.

But even though I have forgiven you, now you really owe an answer. So what facts are distorted or what did you read that did not make you enthused?

(Note that JonNC gave me a good behavior pill and it lasts a long time unless you accuse me again of something I didn’t do)

 

[Mummsie]

Porknpie:

I hesitate to post as I’m not sure how long those pills will really last. I promise not to mis-quote you.

However, you have certainly attacked the Mormon faith. This is their beliefs. Tithing is also a part of their faith. Wouldn’t it be nice if all Catholics tithed? Even half of them?

I thought this forum was a place for learning. I admire your passion for our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. But somewhere along the road aren’t we supposed to treat each other with respect? Kindness? Understanding?

Hope your “Happy Pills” lasted through my post

God Bless You!

 

[Porknpie]

Porknpie:

I hesitate to post as I’m not sure how long those pills will really last. I promise not to mis-quote you.

However, you have certainly attacked the Mormon faith. This is their beliefs. Tithing is also a part of their faith. Wouldn’t it be nice if all Catholics tithed? Even half of them?

I thought this forum was a place for learning. I admire your passion for our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. But somewhere along the road aren’t we supposed to treat each other with respect? Kindness? Understanding?

Hope your “Happy Pills” lasted through my post

God Bless You!

Mummsies, you mis-quoted me and you promised not to do so. I am always . MTOlympus has said that there is “spin” in what I have said, that I have twisted the truth, and that they would find some of the things difficult to get enthused about if they were true. It’s now fair to ask what did I spin and what wouldnt get them enthused if true? I also asked did he understand why Evangelicals may lack enthusiasm for Mitt? I promise to be of good behavior moving forward as I already said…

 

[JonNC]

If I really thought Mitt Romney believed what I have read on this post, I wouldn’t by enthused about him either.

MTOlympus, so what is the “spin” that you are referring to? If I am presenting any facts wrong or if I am interpreting something wrong, correct me and I will apologize.

Fair question.

(Note that JonNC gave me a good behavior pill and it lasts a long time unless you accuse me again of something I didn’t do)

Nah. Just a reminder that you are a good Catholic.

Jon

 

[mtolympus]

MTOlympus, so what is the “spin” that you are referring to? If I am presenting any facts wrong or if I am interpreting something wrong, correct me and I will apologize.

I have already addressed one issue but since you are in the mood for apologizing I will address it again. You said:

It’s easy to see why many of Christian faith can not be excited about anyone who believes what is really non sense, especially one who would become President of the United States of America, with the Words “In God We Trust” on our currency. Romey’s view of the world is “In Gods We Trust”.

We believe that God the Eternal Father is our one true God. Mitt Romney and I pray to the Father, the same God that Jesus prayed to and called “the only true God.” (John 17:3) It is quite offensive to us to say that Romney’s view of the world is “In Gods We Trust”.

We believe as Paul did when he wrote: “But to us there is but one God the Father,…and one Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 8:6) And, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Tim. 2:5-6)

Jesus is God because He recieved authority from the Father. (John 5:26-27) Jesus is one with His father in perfect unity and authority. (John 14:20) Jesus is the mediator between God and man and when dealing with man Jesus speaks on behalf of the Father: “And the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.” (John 14:24) It is Jesus the mediator who deals with man and that is why Jesus is the God of Old Testament, the God of Jacob know as “the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel.” (Gen. 49:24)

That is what we actually believe.

 

[Porknpie]

We believe that God the Eternal Father is our one true God. Mitt Romney and I pray to the Father, the same God that Jesus prayed to and called “the only true God.” (John 17:3) It is quite offensive to us to say that Romney’s view of the world is “In Gods We Trust”.

MTOlympus, in the Mormon faith, who sits at the judgement seat, is it not the Father (one God), Jesus (another God) and Joseph Smith (another God) and the original 12 apostles? Does this include Judas?

We believe as Paul did when he wrote: “But to us there is but one God the Father,…and one Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 8:6) And, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Tim. 2:5-6)

OK, here is 1 Timothy 2:

1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

Do you pray as Jesus himself instructed us to pray? This is a repetitious prayer. Matthew chapter 6:

9 This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven,hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,your will be done, on earth as in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread;
12 and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;
13 and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one.
14 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.

3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior

How can God be our savior when Jesus is our savior? It’s because the Son and the Father are one, with the Holy Spirit. It’s the belief of the Trinity held by all Christianity.

John 10:30: "The Father and I are one.”

1 John 4:14: “Moreover, we have seen and testify that the Father sent his Son as savior of the world.”

4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human,.

This is so true! Isaiah 43:10. The other point here that the writer is making is that Jesus is one with the Father and has two distinct natures, both devine and human.

You are my witnesses*—oracle of the LORD—
my servant whom I have chosen
To know and believe in me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
and after me there shall be none.

MTOlympus, I’ll answer the question on do you understand why Evangelicals can not get enthused about Mitt? It’s in part, because they don’t believe Mormonism is a part of Christianity, fundamental to which is a belief in one God almighty maker of heaven and earth and that the One God Almight has three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Isaiah is clear, the Lord says there was no God formed before me and after me there shall be none." This is not my personal interpretation of scripture, this IS the scripture, believed through Christendom since the time of Christ. For me to accept your beliefs, I have to believe that 1) Jesus was a very poor teacher because his apostles went out and preached this through out the world 2) the book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith did not lie and 3) the book of Abraham is true and Joseph Smith did not lie. The evidence does not support, 1, 2 or 3.

 

[mtolympus]

MTOlympus, in the Mormon faith, who sits at the judgement seat, is it not the Father (one God), Jesus (another God) and Joseph Smith (another God) and the original 12 apostles? Does this include Judas?

I pray to the one God that Jesus prays to, and believe in the one God discribed by Paul. I believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one God. The only difference is that I believe they are one in purpose and authority and not one in substance. I don’t believe in any other god. Don’t you think I know what I believe?

As for your question, we are told that “we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ.” Since I believe that Christ is the Judge and that Christ is God, I believe He can and will do what he wants. If Christ wants to delegate authority to his apostles as he did in Matt. 18:15-18 that is fine with me. “Does this include Judas?” Of course not, why would you even say that in connection to your phrase “in the Mormon faith”?

I am not trying to prove what I believe. I am only trying to do what you asked me to do, and that is to point out your negative spin that you put on LDS beliefs.

MTOlympus, so what is the “spin” that you are referring to? If I am presenting any facts wrong or if I am interpreting something wrong, correct me and I will apologize.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I pray to the one God that Jesus prays to, and believe in the one God discribed by Paul. I believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one God. The only difference is that I believe they are one in purpose and authority and not one in substance. I don’t believe in any other god. Don’t you think I know what I believe?

As for your question, we are told that “we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ.” Since I believe that Christ is the Judge and that Christ is God, I believe He can and will do what he wants. If Christ wants to delegate authority to his apostles as he did in Matt. 18:15-18 that is fine with me. “Does this include Judas?” Of course not, why would you even say that in connection to your phrase “in the Mormon faith”?

I am not trying to prove what I believe. I am only trying to do what you asked me to do, and that is to point out your negative spin that you put on LDS beliefs.

What of your mother in heaven,goddess?

Or of your own Book of Abraham ch. 4? Clearly teaches Gods, in the plural?

If 1000 people are working towards a same purpose, no one would call them one human. It is a game of semantics that you are playing. Mormons clearly believe in a plurality of gods.

 

[RebeccaJ]

How about a little help, from a [LDS primary manual](LDS primary manual), which is aimed at teaching children.

“Jesus Christ is a God”

The bold is mine…that “a” is what makes Mormon teaching polytheistic.

Jesus IS God. Leave the “a” out, since there is but one God, and no other.