Poll taken that most people disagree with Catholic bishops denying Communion to politicians who support abortion.

[vern_humphrey]

That is true. You said I was throwing around accusations. I only presumed you meant false accusations. Otherwise why would you fault me for accusations that were true?

Terri Schiavo was not a functioning human being. Her brain was severely atrophied. She was not aware of things that were going on around her. She wasn’t only getting food and water. She was also getting trained care in a nursing facility by health care professionals. This went on for 15 years. This may not have been burdensome to the people who were paying the bills (it probably was), but it was certainly extraordinary, disproportionate to the expected outcome , overzealous treatment, etc. given that she was in a vegetative state.

People choose every day to stop unnecessary medical treatment for their families. It’s a hard decision to make. Usually, people are afforded respect and privacy in making their decision. However, during election years, anything goes.

The Catholic position – as articulated by John Paul the Great – is that it is never permissible to withhold food and water.

 

[fix]

Terri Schiavo was not a functioning human being. Her brain was severely atrophied. She was not aware of things that were going on around her. She wasn’t only getting food and water. She was also getting trained care in a nursing facility by health care professionals. This went on for 15 years. This may not have been burdensome to the people who were paying the bills (it probably was), but it was certainly extraordinary, disproportionate to the expected outcome , overzealous treatment, etc. given that she was in a vegetative state.

People choose every day to stop unnecessary medical treatment for their families. It’s a hard decision to make. Usually, people are afforded respect and privacy in making their decision. However, during election years, anything goes.

In most cases there is not an excessive burden in the artificial administration of nutrition and hydration. The total care of such patients may be a burden, but it is the burden of this particular treatment that must be judged, not the burden of the person’s life itself. We can never justify the withdrawal of sustenance on the basis of the quality of life of the patient. …Because human life has inherent value and dignity regardless of its condition, every patient should be provided with measures which can effectively preserve life without involving too grave a burden. Since food and water are necessities of life for all human beings and can generally be provided without the risks and burdens of more aggressive means for sustaining life, the law should establish a strong presumption in favor of their use.* (Statement on Uniform Rights of the Terminally Ill Act, NCCB Committee for Pro-Life Activities, June, 1986, Origins, Vol. 16, Page 222.)
*
Clearly, nourishment or hydration may be withheld or withdrawn where that treatment itself is causing harm to the patient or is useless because the patient’s death is imminent, as long as the patient is made comfortable. In general the terms “death is imminent” and “terminally ill” imply that a physician can predict that the patient will die of the fatal pathology within a few days or weeks, regardless of what life prolonging methods are utilized.

                 [****THE LIFE, DEATH AND THE TREATMENT ****](http://www.flacathconf.org/Publications/BishopsStatements/Bpst1980/Lifedeathdying042789.htm)                         
               [****OF DYING PATIENTS****](http://www.flacathconf.org/Publications/BishopsStatements/Bpst1980/Lifedeathdying042789.htm)

 

[melensdad]

The lack of restrictions on guns means that American arms dealers are selling assault rifles to terrorists, criminals and cop killers.

Which police officer was killed with an actual assault weapon (as per the BATF definition not some made up definition)? Which criminal used it? I used Google, I can’t find any instance of this.

As Governor of Texas, GW Bush sent a huge number of people to their deaths. . .

During the years that Bush was sworn in as Governor there were 131 executions in Texas. While 131 is high compared to other states, it seems like a gross exaggeration to suggest that this is a huge number. I oppose the death penalty but honestly I don’t see this as sending a huge number of people to their deaths. Bear in mind those were criminals who went through the court system and found guilty and sentenced under law. On the other hand, without going through courts Stalin is attributed to killing 15 million Russians, 100,000+ Jews, 5 million Ukranians and 3 millions “enemies of state.” Hitler killed 6 million Jews, 5 million Gypsies, 6 million Poles and roughly 150,000 homosexuals. Pol Pot ordered roughly 2 million Cambodians killed.

The church teaches that "Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate . . .and then later you wrote:
johnlal;2374937:

People choose every day to stop unnecessary medical treatment for their families. It’s a hard decision to make. Usually, people are afforded respect and privacy in making their decision. However, during election years, anything goes.

Where do the Catholics say providing water and nurishment is burdensome, dangerous, extraodinary or disproportionate?

 

[johnlal]

Which police officer was killed with an actual assault weapon (as per the BATF definition not some made up definition)? Which criminal used it? I used Google, I can’t find any instance of this.

I’m not going to play your game of responding to NRA talking points. My point was that criminals and terrorists take advantage of our lax gun laws to get their hands on guns. The gun lobby pays huge amounts to keep Congress from legislating to keep very dangerous guns out of the hands of very dangerous people.

During the years that Bush was sworn in as Governor there were 131 executions in Texas. While 131 is high compared to other states, it seems like a gross exaggeration to suggest that this is a huge number. I oppose the death penalty but honestly I don’t see this as sending a huge number of people to their deaths. Stalin is attributed to killing 15 million Russians, 100,000+ Jews, 5 million Ukranians and 3 millions “enemies of state.” Hitler killed 6 million Jews, 5 million Gypsies, 6 million Poles and roughly 150,000 homosexuals. Pol Pot ordered roughly 2 million Cambodians killed.

That’s moral relativism. Just because killing millions is very bad doesn’t mean that killing hundreds is acceptable.

Where do the Catholics say providing water and nurishment is burdensome, dangerous, extraodinary or disproportionate?

I stand corrected on this point. It is true that Pope John Paul II addressed this point in a speech in which he stated that we are obligated to provide food and water.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m not going to play your game of responding to NRA talking points.

Of course not! It’s so hard to deal with all those facts.

My point was that criminals and terrorists take advantage of our lax gun laws to get their hands on guns.

As opposed to say, Mexico, where most people cannot own firearms at all – and look at their low crime rate.

The gun lobby pays huge amounts to keep Congress from legislating to keep very dangerous guns out of the hands of very dangerous people.

As opposed to the anti-gun lobby, which pays even larger amounts to Congress.

That’s moral relativism. Just because killing millions is very bad doesn’t mean that killing hundreds is acceptable.

No, it’s not moral relativism – even the Church reconizes that capital punishment may be necessary. And places the judgement of fact in such cases in the hands of the state, not in the Church.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The title of this thread is, “Poll taken that most people disagree with Catholic bishops denying Communion to politicians who support abortion.”

Can someone tell me how the last few pages of posts relate to that subject?

 

[Ferdinand_Mary]

Thank you to all who participated - this thread is now closed.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary