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Ginkgo100
Guest
The quote is by G.K. Chesterton in his essay “Why I am a Catholic.”
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puzzleannie
Guest
the biggest threat to unity is any group who organizes with the specific intent to defy the Magesterium, and who does so not primarily through peripherals like debating certain teachings and practices, and who are mostly lay-led, but attacks in the heart of liturgy and of the priesthood itself, and are led by clergy even bishops. That describes SSPX and the movements allied with them. The fact that so many of those strongest in support of traditional liturgy chose to leave the Church just at the time when liturgy was in such a state of flux and crisis deprived of for those key years of many of the very people who could have helped keep the Church on a more even keel, have been a voice of reason against excess experimentation, and could have exercised beneficial leadership within the Church. They chose instead to abandon the Church for a remnant obedient to their own wills. Very sad. Very destructive.
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Iotaunum
Guest
Had the question allowed for an open answer I would have said ; Ecumenism. However out of the two options Liberal Catholics are the biggest threat to Unity. The SSPX, whose masses I attend are niether heretical nor schismatic. They expell those who want to break away from the unity of the Church and those who say the Pope is not the legitimate successor of St Peter. A resistance of what they see to be erroneous doctrine spread in recent years is not a threat to unity, nor a rejection of the authority of the Pope to command.
Pope Pius IX said to the French Catholics: "Atheism in legislation, indifference in matters of religion, and the pernicious maxims which go under the name of Liberal Catholicism are the true causes of the destruction of states; they have been the ruin of France. Believe me, the evil I denounce is more terrible than the Revolution, more terrible even than The Commune. I have always condemned Liberal Catholicism, and I will condemn it again forty times over if it be necessary." He said Liberal Catholics were the worst enemies of the Church and for good reason! They indeed pose a big threat to Church unity, and are by far more numerous than the SSPX, who I do not consider a threat to unity whatsoever - the oposite in fact. Remember Liberalism is a sin. Nowadays people are prone to think it is just a preference; orthodox or modernist, liberal or conservative. A liberal Catholic is a bad one, one who rebels against the Church and her doctrine.
Pope Pius IX said to the French Catholics: "Atheism in legislation, indifference in matters of religion, and the pernicious maxims which go under the name of Liberal Catholicism are the true causes of the destruction of states; they have been the ruin of France. Believe me, the evil I denounce is more terrible than the Revolution, more terrible even than The Commune. I have always condemned Liberal Catholicism, and I will condemn it again forty times over if it be necessary." He said Liberal Catholics were the worst enemies of the Church and for good reason! They indeed pose a big threat to Church unity, and are by far more numerous than the SSPX, who I do not consider a threat to unity whatsoever - the oposite in fact. Remember Liberalism is a sin. Nowadays people are prone to think it is just a preference; orthodox or modernist, liberal or conservative. A liberal Catholic is a bad one, one who rebels against the Church and her doctrine.
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Lormar
Guest
Quite right. They should have stayed in the church like the liberals and attempted their destruction of same legally. Better to be defiant in the face of your bishop and pope when you are in full communion with them.
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GloriousOrder
Guest
To be honest, I tend to think that pollsters are the greatest threat to the Church! Injecting democratic obsessions with percentile beliefs really doesn’t help. The biggest danger to the Church is really just the fear of danger to the Church. Giving into fear of attacks from the “right” or from the “left” is exactly the point of Satan’s assault from both sides. Let the true Church of our Lord Jesus Christ triumph in joy, safety, and glory.
The most frequently-occurring phrase in the Holy Scriptures is “do not be afraid”. Never mind all these stupid polls and anxious inquiries!
The most frequently-occurring phrase in the Holy Scriptures is “do not be afraid”. Never mind all these stupid polls and anxious inquiries!
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I agree with some of the comments here. The problem with groups like SSPX and liberal thinking Catholics is that they cannot respect the authority above them.
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RC1947
Guest
There is nothing heretical in the SSPX and it is apparent that you know little or nothing about it. Also, a so-called schismatic spirit is a product of your own imagination, for the SSPX has never separated itself from the Magisterium of the Church in any way. Whatever separation you think you have observed is a result of the Fraternity’s clinging to the Faith in all its purity rather than going along with the abuses generated by and arising from Vatican II. The reason the SSPX has more substance is because it refuses to “water down” the teaching of the Church. All the rest is politics.
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Oneofthewomen
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I do not claim to know all of the “ins& outs” of the the SSPX issue however both of these comments, based on what is fact, do not make any sense to me.
Fact is that AB Lefebvre consecrated 4 Bishops against the will of the Holy Father.
One of the reasons I have heard that he gave for doing this was that he felt it was an emergency situation, due to his ill health.
That might wash if he only consecrated one Bishop, but 4!
IMHO, this action alone shows that they (the SSPX and the Arch Bishop) rebeled against the Magisterium and seperated themselves from the Church.
Dissent is dissent, no matter how good your intentions are or what side of the fence you are on.
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antonivs
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Exactly right.I do not claim to know all of the “ins& outs” of the the SSPX issue however both of these comments, based on what is fact, do not make any sense to me.
Fact is that AB Lefebvre consecrated 4 Bishops against the will of the Holy Father.
One of the reasons I have heard that he gave for doing this was that he felt it was an emergency situation, due to his ill health.
That might wash if he only consecrated one Bishop, but 4!
IMHO, this action alone shows that they (the SSPX and the Arch Bishop) rebeled against the Magisterium and seperated themselves from the Church.
Dissent is dissent, no matter how good your intentions are or what side of the fence you are on.
:clapping:
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BenedictOblate
Guest
My personal belief is unity will never be established in this life, but God wishes for us to work towards the goal. I believe a portion of our final judgment will be based on the journey toward unity and how we treat others during the journey. I believe God knows it is a task that cannot be completed, but our efforts and attitudes in the task demonstrate our love of God and our love of neighbor.
I think it is unavoidable that different people have different preferences with regard to worship and spirituality. If people have access to both the ordinary and extraordinary forms of the mass in their area, they will make a choice based on their preference on which one they will attend.
People defend the veracity and rectitude of their personal preferences and why that preference is superior to other choices with quotes from scripture, encyclicals, canon law, etc . . . I don’t think people set out to defend their preferences with any malevolent intent. People simply see the world through their own filter, and their worldview, based on their education, experiences and ability to reason is the truth to them.
This is not to say truth is subjective, but the individual perception of truth is subjective and narrow. I think very few humans are capable of understanding truth in its entirety. I think we are limited by our individual capacity to reason and understand truth in its totality and therefore we understand it within a narrow focus.
Unity is threatened when people are unwilling to consider that truth may be bigger than them. When their own personal preferences lead them to “condemn” others for their choices it sets up a hostile relationship between people.
This is not to say that I think we should be lukewarm in our faith or wishy-washy. I believe we should practice our faith with earnestness and passion, but we should also practice great humility and know that we are incapable of comprehending how awesome God’s plan is for the world.
The charitable questions to ask oneself each day are not, “How can I help him understand the “truth” better and get him to believe and worship like me?”, but rather “What else can I do today to honor God and show love for all of my brothers and sisters today? How can I be a peacemaker? How can I deny myself and do the will of the Father?”
I struggle with this daily and don’t pretend to have all of the answers, but I don’t believe anything I’ve written would conflict with anything revealed to us by God. Please pray for me that I always have the strength to overcome sin in my life and desire nothing other than to be in the eternal, loving presence of God.
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
I think it is unavoidable that different people have different preferences with regard to worship and spirituality. If people have access to both the ordinary and extraordinary forms of the mass in their area, they will make a choice based on their preference on which one they will attend.
People defend the veracity and rectitude of their personal preferences and why that preference is superior to other choices with quotes from scripture, encyclicals, canon law, etc . . . I don’t think people set out to defend their preferences with any malevolent intent. People simply see the world through their own filter, and their worldview, based on their education, experiences and ability to reason is the truth to them.
This is not to say truth is subjective, but the individual perception of truth is subjective and narrow. I think very few humans are capable of understanding truth in its entirety. I think we are limited by our individual capacity to reason and understand truth in its totality and therefore we understand it within a narrow focus.
Unity is threatened when people are unwilling to consider that truth may be bigger than them. When their own personal preferences lead them to “condemn” others for their choices it sets up a hostile relationship between people.
This is not to say that I think we should be lukewarm in our faith or wishy-washy. I believe we should practice our faith with earnestness and passion, but we should also practice great humility and know that we are incapable of comprehending how awesome God’s plan is for the world.
The charitable questions to ask oneself each day are not, “How can I help him understand the “truth” better and get him to believe and worship like me?”, but rather “What else can I do today to honor God and show love for all of my brothers and sisters today? How can I be a peacemaker? How can I deny myself and do the will of the Father?”
I struggle with this daily and don’t pretend to have all of the answers, but I don’t believe anything I’ve written would conflict with anything revealed to us by God. Please pray for me that I always have the strength to overcome sin in my life and desire nothing other than to be in the eternal, loving presence of God.
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
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RC1947
Guest
My comments are based on fact, but yours are not, which is most likely why things are not making sense to you. One cannot manage one’s life based on mere opinion or half-truths. You need to do a great deal of homework if you wish to get a true understanding of the situation and the justifiable reasons behind it. Dissent is often necessary, especially in defense of the Faith. The suspension was illegal. To argue for the consecration of one bishop but not four simply doesn’t follow. If one is wrong all are wrong. In fact, none were wrong. You need to find out why. If there were a simple explanation, I would be happy to present it here, but there is not enough room to do that. I must say, however that the Archbishop and the SSPX in general have NEVER rebelled against the Magisterium, tradition or rightful authority. The Church provides remedies for the dangers in which she finds herself and the Archbishop knew this. You would do well to go to the website of the SSPX at sspx.org and read up on everything there concerning the actions of Archbishop Lefebvre.I do not claim to know all of the “ins& outs” of the the SSPX issue however both of these comments, based on what is fact, do not make any sense to me.
Fact is that AB Lefebvre consecrated 4 Bishops against the will of the Holy Father.
One of the reasons I have heard that he gave for doing this was that he felt it was an emergency situation, due to his ill health.
That might wash if he only consecrated one Bishop, but 4!
IMHO, this action alone shows that they (the SSPX and the Arch Bishop) rebeled against the Magisterium and seperated themselves from the Church.
Dissent is dissent, no matter how good your intentions are or what side of the fence you are on.
Pat
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At_Trent
Guest
Huge difference Robyn. Both, it can be argued, are disobedient. But with the SSPX, that’s where it stops. The SSPX promotes no heresy, does not discard Tradition, has no blame in the ongoing sex scandal, which has harmed the Church the most in recent times.
Among the ranks of liberals, we have promotion of heresies, liturgical abuses, and promotion of numerous novelties. No group strips the Church of her character as the liberals. The Church has been fighting such for a very long time.
I’m not a member of the local SSPX chapel, but I can’t bring myself to do anything other than pray they will reconcile in some way that does not compromise what they stand for. That is, Tradition. If the SSPX were the threat some claim they are, why would the Bishop of Rome lift the excommunications on the four Bishops ?
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mdrummer5
Guest
Well said… I was simply going to say human beings.
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John_of_Woking
Guest
Unintentionally but culpably??? Is that a contradiction? Anyhow I think the majority of SSPX adherents are genuine. Mistaken but genuine. Some of their arguments are extremely convincing aswell. We need to minister to them.
I agree with your prognosis of the liberal’s house being built on sand - they seem to be carried upon a tide of relativism and therefore are pretty hard to p(name removed by moderator)oint. Liberal catholics have fallen for the devil’s lie…and made themselves their own popes. Are they a threat to the Church…? Well they are when they are in positions of authority and of course their disobedience does harm the mystical Body of Christ. They cause scandal when they call themselves catholic and promote sin.
For this they get my vote
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
I really don’t get this sympathy for the SSPX. 
They blatently disobeyed a direct order from the Supreme Pontiff.
How is that being faithful to the Magisterium?
Whether they thought they were right or not is irrelevent, because the Pope said that they were in error, and has given them every opportunity to fix the situation. They have chosen not too. They were not asked to sin, they just want things their own way. How is it any different than any “liberal cause” ?
They blatently disobeyed a direct order from the Supreme Pontiff.
How is that being faithful to the Magisterium?
Whether they thought they were right or not is irrelevent, because the Pope said that they were in error, and has given them every opportunity to fix the situation. They have chosen not too. They were not asked to sin, they just want things their own way. How is it any different than any “liberal cause” ?
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laszlo
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The liberals are a strong group with significant influence. I estimate 1/3rd of the Catholics, and also that percentile of the priests.
The SPPX represents max 600,000 catholics (from 1 billion) and 500 priests form 400,000. They do not represent real power.
The SPPX represents max 600,000 catholics (from 1 billion) and 500 priests form 400,000. They do not represent real power.
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Oneofthewomen
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Sources, please?
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John_of_Woking
Guest
Pope Benedict himself is sympathetic to the SSPX and that is why he has made overtures to them. That said you are right to denounce their disobedience.I really don’t get this sympathy for the SSPX.
They blatently disobeyed a direct order from the Supreme Pontiff.
How is that being faithful to the Magisterium?
Whether they thought they were right or not is irrelevent, because the Pope said that they were in error, and has given them every opportunity to fix the situation. They have chosen not too. They were not asked to sin, they just want things their own way. How is it any different than any “liberal cause” ?
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At_Trent
Guest
Easy. Read these words of our pope. Unity is the topic of this thread.I really don’t get this sympathy for the SSPX.
They blatently disobeyed a direct order from the Supreme Pontiff.
How is that being faithful to the Magisterium?
Whether they thought they were right or not is irrelevent, because the Pope said that they were in error, and has given them every opportunity to fix the situation. They have chosen not too. They were not asked to sin, they just want things their own way. How is it any different than any “liberal cause” ?
blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2009/03/12/official-text-of-popes-letter-to-bishops-on-williamson-affair/
Would you ask the pope why he is sympathetic to them ? Especially after knowing he lifted the excommunications ? When you question the sympathy, you question the prudence of your pope.
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