Polling for the Real Presence

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On another thread we were sidetracked into discussing various polls that seem to indicate a lack of belief in the real presence by Catholics. In particular, I think two polls came up, one by Gallup in 1992 (commissioned by Peter Stravinskas) and one by the NYT and CBS in 1994.

I have a slight problem with both polls. You see, I believe in the real presence and have for years and if I had been asked in 1992, “Do you believe Jesus is really present in the Eucharist,” I would have said yes. If asked, “Do you think the Eucharist is only a symbol and nothing more,” I would have said no. If asked, “Is that just bread and wine,” I would have said, “No, it only looks like bread and wine, but it is Jesus who is there, and not bread and wine.”

BUT, in those two polls with the words they used and asked quickly on the phone, I probably would have counted as someone who does not believe in the real presence. :hmmm: So, what does that mean? When people quote these polls to support the idea that Catholics don’t believe in the real presence, are those people trying to talk about Catholics like the historical me?

How should the polls be worded? How many Catholics REALLY don’t believe in the real presence?
 
I wish it was just a matter of words, but the church has it’s own information and has put it at only about 50-50. The largest Christian denomination in our country is Catholic. The next largest Christian group are the “Fallen Away” Catholics, who don’t go to Mass at all or only go on Christmas and Easter. Fallen away Catholics outnumber the next group (Baptists) at more than two to one.😦

It’s time to heed the words of Marcus Grodi …and come home.
 
Part of the reason one of the polls would have confused me is that in order to get the “right” answer, you have to go for a choice that includes body, blood, soul, and divinity. I’d never heard that phrase back in 1992, so I would have needed to figure out what they thought they meant by asking that. The word “divinity” is what would have thrown me for a loop. The first time I heard that phrase, I puzzled for a long time.

So on the polls I would have skipped that as an option because I wouldn’t have known what they thought they meant by it.

Would any of you have wondered about that phrase (in 1992)?

Also, on that same poll, they include as an option, “you are receiving bread and wine, in which Jesus is really and truly present.” NOW I recognize that they are trying to ask about consubstantiation, but back then I’d never heard of consubstantiation, so I would have assumed they meant by that option that they were calling it bread and wine only because it looked like that and for convenience, and they were asking if Jesus was really and truly present. I would have assumed they meant something orthodox by that phrase simply because I’d never heard of a particular heresy. I would not have taken that option as an expression that the bread and wine themselves were still actually there. It wouldn’t have crossed my mind to think they could have meant that.

Are these polls really about what heresies have you heard of?
 
cheese_sdc said:
What information does the Church have?
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Over the years the Church through various institutions has taken polls concerning this matter. It does appear that belief in the real presence is dropping.

A majorproblem to measure this is that is no baseline data to compare it to. Polls weren’t taken until comparitively recently so there is really no way to tell if it has dropped a lot, a little or is basically holding the line. But since polls have started it appears that the belief is dropping.

Depending on which poll you accept belief in the real presence ranges anywhere from 25%to85%. One thing is consistent though, those over 60 seem to be more more likely believe in the real presence than those 50 and below.

Among younger people 30 and below it drops even further, again depending which poll you believe.

Another problem as I see it is wording. Not only in the question but in the definition of the Real Presence itself… I’ve seen posts on this forum arguing between being physically present and sacramentally present and present in a substantial way. many people really don’t know what to believe.

Just based on my own discussions with people I know, I would say belief in the Real Presence is well under 50% in most areas. True most of them do believe that Christ is present in a mystical spiritual sense, but they tend to reject that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ.

The reasons,** POOR CATECHISIS**, lack of quality instruction, lack of emphasis, attending other churches and learning that their communion as symbolic only, emphasis on the meal aspect rather than the sacrificial aspect of the Mass, very important actually, radical theology and yes Protestant influence, definitely. Coupled with a lack of instruction the influence of the protestants is probably the biggest single reason for the general decline in the belief in the real presence…
 
cheese_sdc said:
What information does the Church have?
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I attended a class at our diocese that had the figures. Probably from the USCCB (Catholic Bishops.) As was said, belief that the Eucharist is Jesus-Body,Blood, Soul, and Divinity-True presence- is down. If folks believe Jesus is truly present, they are not as likely to stay home and watch football on Sunday or become fallen away Catholics. Also as was said,we have lost several generations of responsible Catholic Parents that brought their children up in the truths of the faith. Many just drop their kids off for Sacramental prep classes and don’t attend Mass.
 
Pug, you keep alluding to the way the questions are worded, so I gotta ask, where can we see how the questions were worded? Are these polls posted anywhere?

I would bet that in my parish, belief in the real presence is very high. It is taught very strongly from the pulpit almost every Sunday.
 
Michael_Welter said:
Are these polls posted anywhere?
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My link in the first post is to the place where Saint_Michael posted his links and stuff. The link of his that I chose to scan was this one, catholicapologetics.com/ba3.htm which has some of the poll info summarized. But for corroboration, I read about it in Commonweal. Here is a direct quote from that magazine (not online that I know of):
The first study to catch the bishops’ attention was commissioned by the Reverend Peter Stravinskas, a well-known Catholic apologist and editor of The Catholic Answer. In 1992, he obtained funds from the Saint Augustine Center Association and hired the Gallup Organization to conduct a national poll asking Catholics: “Which one of the following statements about Holy Communion do you think best reflects your belief?” Only 30 percent of the respondents chose the first option: “When receiving Holy Communion, you are really and truly receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, under the appearance of bread and wine” (which Stravinskas interpreted as the “orthodox” Catholic view). Twenty-nine percent indicated “you are receiving bread and wine, which symbolize the spirit and teachings of Jesus and in so doing are expressing your attachment to His person and words.” Twenty-four percent believed “you are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, which has become that because of your personal belief.” Ten percent said “you are receiving bread and wine, in which Jesus is really and truly present.” Finally, 8 percent said “none of the above,” “don’t know,” or refused to answer.
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James D Davidson, “Yes, Jesus is really there”, Commonweal. New York: Oct 12, 2001. Vol. 128, Iss. 17; pg. 14, 3 pgs

Also from that same magazine about the 1994 one:
Two years later, the New York Times (June 1, 1994) reported the results of a New York Times/CBS News poll on Catholics and their beliefs about the Real Presence (see also Commonweal, January 27, 1995). In this poll, Catholics were asked whether the bread and wine used in the Eucharist are “changed into the body and blood of Christ,” or are “symbolic reminders of Christ.”
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Also, my parish is like yours. I’ve never had a hint from any of my fellow parishioners that they don’t believe in the real presence, so the whole thing tends to puzzle me.
 
Pug said:
On another thread we were sidetracked into discussing various polls that seem to indicate a lack of belief in the real presence by Catholics. In particular, I think two polls came up, one by Gallup in 1992 (commissioned by Peter Stravinskas) and one by the NYT and CBS in 1994.

I have a slight problem with both polls. You see, I believe in the real presence and have for years and if I had been asked in 1992, “Do you believe Jesus is really present in the Eucharist,” I would have said yes. If asked, “Do you think the Eucharist is only a symbol and nothing more,” I would have said no. If asked, “Is that just bread and wine,” I would have said, “No, it only looks like bread and wine, but it is Jesus who is there, and not bread and wine.”

BUT, in those two polls with the words they used and asked quickly on the phone, I probably would have counted as someone who does not believe in the real presence. :hmmm: So, what does that mean? When people quote these polls to support the idea that Catholics don’t believe in the real presence, are those people trying to talk about Catholics like the historical me?

How should the polls be worded? How many Catholics REALLY don’t believe in the real presence?
Click to expand...
If you would’ve been one of the ones to count as not believing in the Eucharist then it’s time to sign up for some remedial Catholic education. There is only one obviously correct answer in both polls, any Catholic who knows the churches teaching on the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist wouldn’t get it wrong.
 
BrickCityIrish said:
If you would’ve been one of the ones to count as not believing in the Eucharist then it’s time to sign up for some remedial Catholic education. There is only one obviously correct answer in both polls, any Catholic who knows the churches teaching on the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist wouldn’t get it wrong.
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I would get it right now, just not back in 1992 when the poll was done, so no worries! But my point is that I believed in the real presence long before 1992, so what is the deal with these polls? I did believe in the real presence, I just hadn’t ever heard the formulation “body, blood, soul, and DIVINITY”, so I would not have recognized it as a specific dogmatic formulation. I would have figured the poll people chose the words, and who knows with poll people, they could mean any sort of strange thing by it, so I wouldn’t have picked it. But I did believe what it really means. I guess I’m not explaining it very well.😦
 
Here is a gallup poll on Catholics, not the Eucharist question:

I warn you though, the results for Catholics are downright frightening.

Only 12% think abortion should be illegal in all circumstances too…

58% support female Bishops

63% support female priests

thearda.com/Archive/Files/Codebooks/GALLUP92_CB.asp

Only a minority of around 7% take a orthodox view of Catholicism.

The question asked by gallup is summarized beow:

“Which one of the following statements about Holy Communion do you think best reflects your belief?” Only 30 percent of the respondents chose the first option: “When receiving Holy Communion, you are really and truly receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, under the appearance of bread and wine” (which Stravinskas interpreted as the “orthodox” Catholic view). Twenty-nine percent indicated “you are receiving bread and wine, which symbolize the spirit and teachings of Jesus and in so doing are expressing your attachment to His person and words.” Twenty-four percent believed “you are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, which has become that because of your personal belief.” Ten percent said “you are receiving bread and wine, in which Jesus is really and truly present.” Finally, 8 percent said “none of the above,” “don’t know,” or refused to answer.

This is from an archbishop:

catholiclubbock.org/eucharist.htm
 
The lack of education is frightning. The real presence is a dogma of the church, not debatable. This is somthing that needs to be stressed to anyone recieving Holy Communion.

From the Catachism of the Catholic Church

1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as “the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.”[199] In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.”[200] “This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.”[201]

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.[205]

Does anybody in this forum doubt the Real Presence ? This is a difficult consept to explain in our RCIA class. I dont think many people believe it (by body language), even though they claim to.
 
Before I was refering to a RCIA class I was teaching. I have been a life long catholic, but even in school I do not believe it was made clear enough.
 
EBSSTF4 said:
Before I was refering to a RCIA class I was teaching. I have been a life long catholic, but even in school I do not believe it was made clear enough.
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I’ve never thought about what the RCIA class may be secretly thinking about the doctrine of the real presence. I always bought it completely, and never doubted it, so I tend to assume the same of other people. Well, I have had a stray thought, but never actually doubted. I am far more likely to need to guard against doubting that God exists than the real presence.

Have you ever asked the catechumens to try to describe what they believe back to you? What do they say about the Eucharist in their own words?
 
Unfortunately I believe many people who participate are just going through the motions. They tend to agree with whatever they are told, whether they believe it or not. They are attending to please their spouse/parents/friend or whoever.
 
My wife is a convert from the Church of Christ. When she became interested in the Church, I told her that unless she really believed that the bread and wine was changed to the Body and Blood of Christ during the Mass, then forget about joining. Unless you really believe, there is nothing to seperate our Church from all of the other denominations. Without the Eucharist, there is no Church.
 
It is always good to address the subject in advance. Any one I know who is thinking about joining the church I recommend does a little basic research. I will go over the basics with them and explain the Catholic Church is not a democracy. Too many people think they can pick and choose what to believe. For two thousand years our beliefs have remained unchanged, now all these people are coming out of the woodwork who know better than Jesus and his Apostles.
 
When I was in my mid-twenties, I had a spiritual awakening and began a program of reading that led to finally understanding the doctrines of the Church. Prior to this, despite being a cradle Catholic and having 11 years of CCD including sacramental prep for first confession, communion, confirmation and marriage, I had no clue about the real presence.

I think a lot of these polls results are presented as if people understand the doctrines and then have rejected it.

Most, I bet, were never clearly taught.
 
Last year in the 6th grade boys CCD class I would say a half to two thirds found it distgusting that the host and wine/water become all of Christ. It took two classes to begin to convince them this was good, desirable and necessary. Obviously this was not what was being taught at home if in fact any Catholic doctrine right or wrong was taught at home.
 
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