Polling Muslims. The "small extremist minority" myth

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Sorry, I have to wade in here. Not only did Muslims permit Christian pilgrims access to the holy land, they offered a safe enough passage that right up until the time of the crusades there were mass, unarmed pilgrimages of up to 7000 people at a time. The Christian population of the holy land continued to steadily increase since the muslims original occupation. And the Caliphate maintained cordial political and commercial relations with much of Europe during that time. (Carl Erdman, The Origin of the Idea of the Crusade, p. 302.) (Crusade, Commerce and Culture, p. 36-38)

And the crusades were not something that suddenly begun in the eleventh century. Practically since the time of Muhammad it was customary for Western nights to volunteer and fight the arabs in Byzantine lands. Very often they would integrate a visit to the holy places as part of their “tour of duty” - so a precedent for the crusades existed since much earlier. (Carl Erdman, The Origin of the Idea of the Crusade (New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1977); p. 330-332)
 
The crusades proper began because Urban saw the weakness of the Byzantine empire, and tried to exploit its dependence on Western knights to increase his loosening influence in the East. He was a man with imperial ambitions. Although Pope Urban originally only wanted the crusades to defend Asia Minor. It was Emperor Alexius of the Byzantine Empire who played on European sentiment by establishing Jerusalem as the goal. (Hans Eberhard Mayer, The Crusades (New York: Oxford University Press, 1965); p. 7.)
 
Also, there were plenty of Arabs present in the Holy Land before they became muslims. They were there as mercenaries for the Romans. When they converted to Islam the region got pulled into the turmoil. It wasn’t the case that a foreign horde of Muslims came conquering Christian lands. It was more like a revolution - a regional, internal upheaval.
 
dronald–thank you for the poll links. I had used the Pew poll for letters to the editor and various internet postings, but you had some polls I wasn’t aware of.

This thread brings up a lot of issues, some of which I’ve been thinking about for over 20 years.

First, what do we name these people? If you call them ISIS or ISIL, you are giving them legitimacy by calling them what they call themselves. The French and some Arab countries call them Da’ish–the Arabic acronym for their name in Arabic, but with a slight change, ‘s’ instead of ‘sh’ at the end, it also has another meaning–‘crushed, stepped on’. I have seen Kharijites (khawarij in Arabic), used, and that’s good. I would think zanadika (sing. ‘zindik’) would be good too–a heretic whose teaching becomes a danger to the state. Zanadika certainly fits.

The problem is that it may be too late–everyone should have gotten together 20 years ago and decided on a name for these sorts of people. But certainly we should avoid names that legitimize them (like ISIS and ISIL).

A related issue is whether you should attach the word ‘Muslim’ to them–‘Muslim extremists’ or ‘Muslim fundamentalists’. Muslims who don’t believe in what these people are doing don’t want to associate themselves with them and are insulted if you use the word ‘Muslim’. The Obama administration has taken this view–therefore they will never use the word ‘Muslim’. I certainly understand that point of view. And to call the non-Khawarij Muslims ‘moderate Muslims’ or ‘Westernized Muslims’ or something like that is condescending and patronizing, and I can see why they would resent it. They consider themselves ‘Muslims’ pure and simple, and the Khawarij ‘non-Muslims.’

I would be very happy calling them Da’ish, Khawarij, or Zanadika and leaving it at that.

However…and it’s a BIG however…there are two issues no one can ignore. First, the Khawarij claim to be the ‘true’ Muslims. Their web sites, all their videos, all their propaganda, everything they do is linked to Islam. When they kill someone, they don’t say “Give us better jobs,” they say “Allahu akbar! This is in revenge for….[some religious reason].” This is not a tiny, insignificant movement. Even in terms of active fighters, we’re talking perhaps 30,000. Supporters–or those who hold similar positions–number in the tens if not hundreds of millions, as the polls above show. This is not some Jim Jones or David Koresh with a couple hundred followers and no outside support. This is big.

To compound the issue, since the death of Muhammad, Islam has been split into factions. Each faction of course claimed it was the ‘true’ version of Islam. If this happened in Catholicism–if you had some international group terrorizing everyone in the name of the Catholic Church–you would immediately have the Pope condemn them, a Church council condemn them, and you could quote the catechism or Church council documents to prove they were not Catholic. There is no equivalent in Islam–there is no authority all Muslims accept as supreme. So if they say they are Muslim, who’s to say they’re not? Furthermore, a Catholic terrorist group would be hard pressed to find any New Testament verses to justify themselves. Unfortunately, although not all Muslims are terrorists, Islam can BE USED to justify terrorism–the Khawarij quote the Qur’an, Hadith, the biography of Muhammad, Muhammad’s actions themselves, etc. Now we can certainly argue with their interpretation, but the fact is that those sources exist and are being used to justify terrorism.

The second problem with not calling them ‘Muslim’ is that virtually every terrorist has been a ‘moderate Muslim’ up to some point, and then flipped, rather quickly. Major Nidal Hasan is an example. So are the Tsarnaev brothers. Tamerlan’s wife didn’t even know he had flipped! Another recent example are the two women arrested in NY last week. The father of one was interviewed on TV, and he said, “No, they must be wrong! My daughter didn’t believe any of that!” Well, she did. So the barrier between a Muslim who would oppose terrorism and a Muslim who would commit terrorism is a bit pourous.

And tempted as I am to re-fight the Crusades, I’ll leave them alone. RIP. Let’s just say that both sides fought exactly as you would expect 11th-13th c. armies to fight. No surprises.

As for the accusation that the West is somehow to blame for all this chaos, there’s a certain truth to it. The various dictators throughout the Middle East were keeping a lid on things. And before them, the British and French kept things under control. And before them, the Ottomans kept things cool from 1517 on. And before them the Mamluks from 1259…and so on. Then the US and its allies came along and poof, Saddam was gone, and the lid was off, and then came the Arab Spring, and whoosh, the lid blew.

So yes, I would blame the West for lifting the lid off the boiling pot (or Pandora’s Box, if you like that analogy better), but to argue that all this chaos is in some way retaliation against the West is nonsense. I know this argument well: when I lived in Saudi Arabia, you could ask any Saudi who was to blame for anything that went wrong (disease, traffic accidents, the weather, whatever) and the answer was always the same: the West. That’s nonsense. We are to blame in the sense we inspired them with the idea of revolt, and probably there is some degree of revenge motivating some people, but overall, that’s not what’s going on.
 
A final thought–

The good news is something I saw twice: I was teaching in Egypt when Nasser died. My class was 100% behind one of his VPs, Ali somebody. The next day–after it was clear Ali was heading for jail and Sadat was going to be in charge–they were 100% for Sadat. A similar thing happened in Saudi Arabia. I was teaching a class of adults. The morning Iraq invaded Iran, 100% of them said Iraq was in the wrong. The next day, after the Saudis came out in favor of Iraq, they had all switched sides and they all supported Iraq. Likewise you can see all the ‘moderate Muslims’ flipping quickly and becoming extremists. So the good news is that these extreme positions aren’t permanent–they can change literally overnight.
 
I don’t give the fundamentalists the authority to define what Islam is. Nor what Christianity is.

**“Islamic Tracts”?

What is that?**
Try the Qur’an, Sirah and Hadith(s) for a start. Plenty of stuff there to show that violence and submission/dhimmitude and deception were and continue to be the ‘order of the day’ for Muslims with regard to Jews and Christians, and indeed any other non-Muslims.

I am just glad that many ‘Muslims’ either choose to ignore the edicts or are in naïve ignorance of them.
 
Try the Qur’an, Sirah and Hadith(s) for a start. Plenty of stuff there to show that violence and submission/dhimmitude and deception were and continue to be the ‘order of the day’ for Muslims with regard to Jews and Christians, and indeed any other non-Muslims.

I am just glad that many ‘Muslims’ either choose to ignore the edicts or are in naïve ignorance of them.
Well, the Hadiths are just things that someone claims Muhammad said, passed down as oral traditions until they were eventually complied and written down. Many Hadiths contradict one another, and different groups of Muslims don’t agree on which Hadiths can be trusted. So I don’t give the Hadiths a lot of historical weight.

The Sirah consist of the things people claim about Muhammad’s life. It has the same evidentiary problems as the Hadith.

The Qur’an we have today, unlike the Hadiths and Sirah, is almost certainly very close to what Muhammad revealed during his lifetime. This is because it was transmitted as a memorized text, word for word, by a group of Qur’an “reciters” or “Hafez”. With only a few minor issues, mostly because of the nature of the Arabic script it was originally canonized in, which did not include vowels.
 
Well, the Hadiths are just things that someone claims Muhammad said, passed down as oral traditions until they were eventually complied and written down. Many Hadiths contradict one another, and different groups of Muslims don’t agree on which Hadiths can be trusted. So I don’t give the Hadiths a lot of historical weight.

The Sirah consist of the things people claim about Muhammad’s life. It has the same evidentiary problems as the Hadith.

The Qur’an we have today, unlike the Hadiths and Sirah, is almost certainly very close to what Muhammad revealed during his lifetime. This is because it was transmitted as a memorized text, word for word, by a group of Qur’an “reciters” or “Hafez”. With only a few minor issues, mostly because of the nature of the Arabic script it was originally canonized in, which did not include vowels.
Well, a study of the earliest ‘Qur’ans’ show differences, particularly in the numbers of surahs, and that there are over writings as well. Muhammad is only mentioned once in the ‘Qur’an’, and there are numbers of contradictions and abrogations within it. So if we consider what you have said, and we take on board the problems of the Qur’an(s) - then what is there left that may be trusted?
 
Well, a study of the earliest ‘Qur’ans’ show differences, particularly in the numbers of surahs, and that there are over writings as well. Muhammad is only mentioned once in the ‘Qur’an’, and there are numbers of contradictions and abrogations within it. So if we consider what you have said, and we take on board the problems of the Qur’an(s) - then what is there left that may be trusted?
What specific contradictions and abrogations are you referring to?

I haven’t seen any very substantial differences in the different, early versions of the Qur’an.
 
answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm is a good place to start on all the different variations.

Have you read “What Is the Koran?” in the 1999 Atlantic? ‪theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/01/what-is-the-koran/304024/?single_page=true‬‬‬‬‬ It’s about the 1972 discovery of parts of 7th-8th century Qur’an manuscripts in Yemen. Yemen has been keeping the manuscripts restricted, as you would expect, but it allowed two German scholars to work on them and photograph them. One has edited a book, The Hidden Origins of Islam, Gerd R Puin, 2009.

There are also a large number of photos of early Qur’ans in Berlin that haven’t been studied much yet. I’m sure that when they are analyzed they will show differences.

I don’t think anyone is saying there are “substantial” differences (except the Hadith themselves–see David Woods’s “Original Burn the Qur’an Day” youtube.com/watch?v=91AM7665cbo )

but the point is that you can’t have it both ways: You can’t say on the one hand that the Qur’an is uncreated and there are NO variations and on the other, when you find variations, give excuses. Either it’s uncreated and there are no variations or that’s a false statement.
 
I don’t think anyone is saying there are “substantial” differences…
but the point is that you can’t have it both ways: You can’t say on the one hand that the Qur’an is uncreated and there are NO variations and on the other, when you find variations, give excuses. Either it’s uncreated and there are no variations or that’s a false statement.
It is a tendency of all religion as believed in and practiced by fallible human beings to believe and create more and more expansive claims over time. A kind of “piety ratchet”, if you will. These claims then often come into conflict with science, history and the like.
 
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