Polygamists Point to ‘Gay Marriage’ in Fight Against Utah’s Appeal of Polygamy Ruling

[Brandon_Cal]

Brandon Cal;13236433:

This isn’t about legalizing polygamous marriage, rather decriminalizing

polygamous cohabitation.

You think??? Wait and see, God Bless, Memaw

It’s a matter of objective fact. Kody Brown is being prosecuted under Utah’s anti-cohabitation laws, and it is this that the Brown family is appealing to higher courts over.

 

[Trident_H]

You’re right. The supporters of SSM have widened the meaning of marriage and in doing so, they have shown how easily that can be done. It’s not about slippery slopes. It’s about trail blazing for the rights and equality of anyone else who wants their own definition of their own form of love/marriage.

Polygamists are of course entitled to ask why should marriage be just two people.

More likely, however, is that bisexuals will want to know why they are forced to choose either a male or a female spouse (but not both) thereby restricting their marriage equality.

I don’t know about that. I don’t want that. I suppose some might, but I would find that really confusing. And I mean how often is a guy like me going to be lucky enough to find a woman who is straight and a man who is gay who both want to marry me at the same time so we can all hang out? I think that’s pretty rare. I don’t know.

 

[aicirt]

I think that the vast majority of people in favor of SSM are not in favor of polyamory. With that said, by their logic, I think that makes their position even more “bigoted” than ours.

Opposition to SSM, when properly formulated, has nothing to do with the morality or appeal of homosexuality. People oppose SSM because they believe that marriage has a specific meaning and purpose, and that meaning and purpose can’t accommodate two people of the same-sex.

Conversely, those in favor of same-sex marriage have essentially said that marriage has no specific purpose other than what we give it. And the purpose that we give it, for the moment, is to endow specific rights and responsibilities upon two people in a relationship. People in polyamorous relationships would benefit just as much from legal protection as those in monogamous relationships. Their love is just as real as anyone else’s. So why not? When you get right down to it, the only reason to deny those rights in priviledes would be because they don’t like polyamory.In otherwords, a person who supports SSM but opposes polyamory is just forcing their beliefs on everyone else.

Polyamourous, does that include women having more than one husband?

 

[aicirt]

I don’t know about that. I don’t want that. I suppose some might, but I would find that really confusing. And I mean how often is a guy like me going to be lucky enough to find a woman who is straight and a man who is gay who both want to marry me at the same time so we can all hang out? I think that’s pretty rare. I don’t know.

There are already married men who have a male lover on the side and in some instance the wife knows about it. Nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[Wesrock]

This concept of extreme liberty (barring actual physical, direct harm like stolen property, damaged bodies) is troublesome and will just lead to increasingly absurd scenarios.

 

[Memaw]

It’s a matter of objective fact. Kody Brown is being prosecuted under Utah’s anti-cohabitation laws, and it is this that the Brown family is appealing to higher courts over.

Poor Kody, he would have all my sympathy if I wasn’t so morally against what he wants. I do have sympathy for those that go against God’s laws. Prayers for all, God Bless, Memaw

 

[Trident_H]

There are already married men who have a male lover on the side and in some instance the wife knows about it. Nothing surprises me anymore.

Yeah. Well that’s more what I think would be more the way it might typically work. But I mean if you then move that bar one notch over and now have the male lover marry the guy–well I don’t think that is going to be a common strategy. I mean I could be wrong, but I can’t see it happening too often. I can’t see a straight woman putting up with that deal. She might turn a blind eye to her husband’s cheating because of reasons. But letting him cement the deal? I don’t think so. Not often anyway.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Poor Kody, he would have all my sympathy if I wasn’t so morally against what he wants. I do have sympathy for those that go against God’s laws. Prayers for all, God Bless, Memaw

That nevertheless doesn’t address the idea that a person should be criminally liable for unconventional family life. I don’t believe that homosexuals should be charged with a criminal infraction for their seedy desires (despite the fact that I believe they are acting sinfully). I also don’t believe that polygamists should be sentenced to jail terms simply because they are polygamists.

We can believe that marriage is defined a certain way without believing that all forms of marriage are equal. I don’t want polygamists sent to jail while their families suffer. I also don’t want gay couples going to jail because they have consensual sex with each other. I can firmly believe in the unity of one man and one woman while recognizing the fact that other unsavory characters will have non-traditional relationships.

 

[Trident_H]

That nevertheless doesn’t address the idea that a person should be criminally liable for unconventional family life. I don’t believe that homosexuals should be charged with a criminal infraction for their seedy desires (despite the fact that I believe they are acting sinfully). I also don’t believe that polygamists should be sentenced to jail terms simply because they are polygamists.

We can believe that marriage is defined a certain way without believing that all forms of marriage are equal. I don’t want polygamists sent to jail while their families suffer. I also don’t want gay couples going to jail because they have consensual sex with each other. I can firmly believe in the unity of one man and one woman while recognizing the fact that other unsavory characters will have non-traditional relationships.

Ok so here I would have to agree. I mean what is jail going to do for these people? I mean if they don’t want to stay polygamous can’t they just leave? Maybe the government just needs to make it easier for people to leave these arrangements if they aren’t happy there rather than spend the resources on putting these guys in jail.

But then again. Why should some stud have a whole group to himself? Doesn’t that sort of deprive that many other men of potential partners? I guess from that side maybe there might be a reason to put them in jail. Maybe even just to slow down the number of kids that jump out of that circle. I don’t know. I’m hardly in a position to judge them that’s for sure.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[Brandon_Cal]

I’ve got to say it again: This isn’t about legalizing polygamy, rather it’s about legalizing the bigamous cohabitation laws in Utah. These polygamists want the government to leave them them the **** alone. They aren’t unlike the plaintiff in Lawrence v. Texas who wanted nothing more than the government to stay the hell out of their relationship. This isn’t a matter of legalizing gay marriage (or polygamous marriage for that matter).

 

[Trident_H]

I’ve got to say it again: This isn’t about legalizing polygamy, rather it’s about legalizing the bigamous cohabitation laws in Utah. These polygamists want the government to leave them them the **** alone. They aren’t unlike the plaintiff in Lawrence v. Texas who wanted nothing more than the government to stay the hell out of their relationship. This isn’t a matter of legalizing gay marriage (or polygamous marriage for that matter).

Sorry if you had to say it again just because of me. I mean I sort of understood that. I guess I was just pointing out why it might still be good to keep this illegal. I guess it’s because I don’t really see the difference between polygamy and calling it a different word because it happens in Utah. Once it’s legal somewhere it’ll be legal everywhere. That means lots of 4 wife Muslim families too. In your neighborhood. So I don’t know if that’s the greatest thing that was ever let out of the box. I mean my worry still stands. Polygamy is a bit of a pyramid scheme that takes potential wives away from other guys in order to give them all to one guy. So what happens to all those other guys? Obviously if there are 100 men and 100 women in an area and one guy gets 10 women and another gets 5 there is an imbalance. There are too many men left over.

But then maybe that’s just because I’m a tidy guy who likes to imagine there is a lid for every pot. Maybe those stray guys will just all become gay and move into a big polygamous pile of their own? Who knows? Why not?

And then what happens to all the kids born in the polygamy pile-up? Aren’t they all going to think it’s normal to be in a huge huge family? So then there just ends up lots of polygamous pile-ups? But how? Because if there are 5 boys on one street and only 4 girls someone’s going to get hurt. Well I don’t know. Maybe I’m just over thinking this. Sorry.

I hope you don’t have to state your thing a third time just because of me again.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Sorry if you had to say it again just because of me. I mean I sort of understood that. I guess I was just pointing out why it might still be good to keep this illegal. I guess it’s because I don’t really see the difference between polygamy and calling it a different word because it happens in Utah. Once it’s legal somewhere it’ll be legal everywhere. That means lots of 4 wife Muslim families too. In your neighborhood. So I don’t know if that’s the greatest thing that was ever let out of the box. I mean my worry still stands. Polygamy is a bit of a pyramid scheme that takes potential wives away from other guys in order to give them all to one guy. So what happens to all those other guys? Obviously if there are 100 men and 100 women in an area and one guy gets 10 women and another gets 5 there is an imbalance. There are too many men left over.

But then maybe that’s just because I’m a tidy guy who likes to imagine there is a lid for every pot. Maybe those stray guys will just all become gay and move into a big polygamous pile of their own? Who knows? Why not?

And then what happens to all the kids born in the polygamy pile-up? Aren’t they all going to think it’s normal to be in a huge huge family? So then there just ends up lots of polygamous pile-ups? But how? Because if there are 5 boys on one street and only 4 girls someone’s going to get hurt. Well I don’t know. Maybe I’m just over thinking this. Sorry.

I hope you don’t have to state your thing a third time just because of me again.

Peace.

-Trident

I hope you understand that I’m not arguing for the legalization of polygamy. Rather, I’m arguing for the decriminalization of polygamy in certain parts of America. I do not in any way believe that polygamy is moral. Nevertheless many groups here in the US actually practice polygamy (as did many of my ancestors) and they do so with the idea that all of Christendom doesn’t care. I want genuine Christians to decide that they don’t want polygamy. I want genuine Christians to fight for real Christians. Cheers!!!

 

[Trident_H]

I hope you understand that I’m not arguing for the legalization of polygamy. Rather, I’m arguing for the decriminalization of polygamy in certain parts of America. I do not in any way believe that polygamy is moral. Nevertheless many groups here in the US actually practice polygamy (as did many of my ancestors) and they do so with the idea that all of Christendom doesn’t care. I want genuine Christians to decide that they don’t want polygamy. I want genuine Christians to fight for real Christians. Cheers!!!

Ok. I think I get it. I promise to get it this time. I really don’t want you to have to say it again. Because maybe I’m a bit dense. I have pride you know.

But don’t you think just decriminalizing it is the same thing as making it legal? I mean if it’s not a crime it’s now le_a_ right? I don’t know. I hope I’m not missing your point again. I mean I get that it’d be great to live and let live, but does that really happen like it should? But ok. You’ve been really patient and fair and I don’t want to get you mad at me for being a bit slow on the draw so I’ll just back out of this slowly by saying that I used to want to live in a polygamous arrangement. I mean I really did. So I sort of understand.

But I’ve gotten second thoughts. Although mine would have been two guys and one girl, but still. Well now I’ve said too much. Now I’ve put my foot in it. This is all your fault I hope you know.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Ok. I think I get it. I promise to get it this time. I really don’t want you to have to say it again. Because maybe I’m a bit dense. I have pride you know.

But don’t you think just decriminalizing it is the same thing as making it legal? I mean if it’s not a crime it’s now le_a_ right? I don’t know. I hope I’m not missing your point again. I mean I get that it’d be great to live and let live, but does that really happen like it should? But ok. You’ve been really patient and fair and I don’t want to get you mad at me for being a bit slow on the draw so I’ll just back out of this slowly by saying that I used to want to live in a polygamous arrangement. I mean I really did. So I sort of understand.

But I’ve gotten second thoughts. Although mine would have been two guys and one girl, but still. Well now I’ve said too much. Now I’ve put my foot in it. This is all your fault I hope you know.

Essentially it boils down to my near libertarian view of the government’s decision not to prosecute particular crimes. Bigamy is illegal in all 50 states. Utah, unlike other states, has made it criminally illegal to cohabit with “other wives” such that individuals like Kody Brown can go to state prison for no other reason than he has more than one wife (despite the fact that these women agree to the arraignment), he’s broken the law only insofar as he’s shared quarters with these women. I don’t see any benefit to society having a man like Kody Brown in prison. I also don’t see any benefit to society having homosexuals in prison for no other reason than they had homosexual sex. I don’t want to see such individuals in prison. I feel that I can simultaneously advocate for a traditional Christian understanding of marriage while still advocating for these individual persons’ rights as citizens of the USA.

 

[Trident_H]

Essentially it boils down to my near libertarian view of the government’s decision not to prosecute particular crimes. Bigamy is illegal in all 50 states. Utah, unlike other states, has made it criminally illegal to cohabit with “other wives” such that individuals like Kody Brown can go to state prison for no other reason than he has more than one wife (despite the fact that these women agree to the arraignment), he’s broken the law only insofar as he’s shared quarters with these women. I don’t see any benefit to society having a man like Kody Brown in prison. I also don’t see any benefit to society having homosexuals in prison for no other reason than they had homosexual sex. I don’t want to see such individuals in prison. I feel that I can simultaneously advocate for a traditional Christian understanding of marriage while still advocating for these individual persons’ rights as citizens of the USA.

Yeah. I know how you feel. The trouble is that I’m a little sensitive with people equating homosexuals imprisoned with those who are in a polygamous arrangement. Somehow I know we are going to get blamed if the situation changes. I know it’s going to be the slippery slope argument again. I guess I just wish it would stop with us and be done. Maybe that’s selfish. And maybe I’m just not as trusting that letting some people be all polyamorous will just stop with them. I mean I don’t think it ever stops. I don’t think there is a point at which everyone is going to say, yeah, that’s it. I mean if we aren’t going to do it on that issue why anywhere?

I mean, would you want to at least limit how many cohabit-wives a guy could have? You know people, right? There’s going to be another Solomon on our hands with no limits. Some guy with 300 wives and 8000 children. Some whole town of people getting together for Christmas or something. Then what?

I think there was a reason this stuff was made illegal and purposefully difficult. Especially in Utah. I think it has nothing to do with sinfulness. I think it’s just practicality. I mean you decriminalize cohabitation and now you’re going to tempt me to move to Utah and live out my fantasy. And that’s not fair. You’re not supposed to be tempting people who have finally worked up the will to get past stuff like this.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Yeah. I know how you feel. The trouble is that I’m a little sensitive with people equating homosexuals imprisoned with those who are in a polygamous arrangement. Somehow I know we are going to get blamed if the situation changes. I know it’s going to be the slippery slope argument again. I guess I just wish it would stop with us and be done. Maybe that’s selfish. And maybe I’m just not as trusting that letting some people be all polyamorous will just stop with them. I mean I don’t think it ever stops. I don’t think there is a point at which everyone is going to say, yeah, that’s it. I mean if we aren’t going to do it on that issue why anywhere?

I mean, would you want to at least limit how many cohabit-wives a guy could have? You know people, right? There’s going to be another Solomon on our hands with no limits. Some guy with 300 wives and 8000 children. Some whole town of people getting together for Christmas or something. Then what?

I think there was a reason this stuff was made illegal and purposefully difficult. Especially in Utah. I think it has nothing to do with sinfulness. I think it’s just practicality. I mean you decriminalize cohabitation and now you’re going to tempt me to move to Utah and live out my fantasy. And that’s not fair. You’re not supposed to be tempting people who have finally worked up the will to get past stuff like this.

Peace.

-Trident

With due respect, you’re essentially making my point for me!

How do we draw the line on morality while looking at bigamy on one hand and homosexuality on the other hand?

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Mind you! This is coming from a person who believes that marriage is between a single man and a single woman. My prior post should be seen in light of devil’s advocate.

 

[aicirt]

Curious: Where does Kody Brown get his money to support all four wives in four rather very nice homes?

Didn’t wife #1 want a divorce? Why? Did he get #5?

I don’t think he’s associated with any branch of the Mormon church. There are Mormons who live in rather poorly. Would they be eligible for welfare?

Muslim communities have four wives but deny it. My question there is why do we let them into this country? And I’m sure some must be collecting welfare as well as SS.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Curious: Where does Kody Brown get his money to support all four wives in four rather very nice homes?

Didn’t wife #1 want a divorce? Why? Did he get #5?

I don’t think he’s associated with any branch of the Mormon church. There are Mormons who live in rather poorly. Would they be eligible for welfare?

Muslim communities have four wives but deny it. My question there is why do we let them into this country? And I’m sure some must be collecting welfare as well as SS.

When the show started, they were all in one home in Utah.After being contracted for the TV show, they were obviously paid enough to build new homes for each wife, in Las Vegas.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I heard on the radio sometime ago that polygamy has a stronger historical basis for existing than so-called gay “marriage”.