Polygamy.....I Now Pronounce You Man and Wives

[TexanKnight]

Texan - could I ask that you not refer to my prophet as “Joe”? It’s sort of insulting and dismissive. His name was Joseph.

His name was also Joe. I will call him Joe. He was like most egomaniacs, once he became “important” he wanted to be called Joseph. He is not important me. I will call him Joe.

Tangent - but your screen name - Texan? Do you know about, and take pride in, the history of the great state of Texas? How it came to be, and the wars fought, and how it ended up part of the United States? How it almost wasn’t? It’s a pretty fascinating history, involving no little amount of bloodshed, before it came into the union and was willing to entertain phrases like “it was declared illegal” from the tiny new federal government.

Not sure of your point here. You actually did not make one. Yes, there was bloodshed in Texas…from a War with Mexico for Independence, to battles against American Indians, to having battles fought as part of the War Between the States. So?

Utah (and a lot of the American west) has similar stories. For example, it wasn’t a state until 1896. Before that it was a territory. And before that there was all sorts of odd tinkering and ideas. The Mormons were sick of getting kicked around from place to place, and at one time, Utah (such as it was) was at the brink of war with the United States of America (such as it was).

They got kicked around because of their leader…because of cheating people, bank scandals, running from debts, illegal conduct, declaring war against Missouri, later declaring War against the USA< Mountains Meadow Massacre and kidnapping. Hard to compare that to Texas.

Texas had a similar story, although much bloodier, because lots of entities wanted to fight over it. With Utah, it was just Mormons and Americans and Native Americans. But with Texas? Well, you use the phrase “it was declared illegal” like that means everything was settled, and Mormons are obviously lawbreakers. There were lots of groups, making all sorts of declarations, in the 1800’s, all over America, for the entire century. Pointing to an anecdote here and there and declaring mormons are lawbreakers? “So much for abiding by the laws of the land”, is about as valid as calling TexanKnight a lawbreaker because of Texan history.

lol…the difference is, Joe broke the law all the time. Mormons broke the law. So, I say “so much for abiding by the law”. Now, I do not break the law. So, if it makes you feel better to bear false witness against me as a way to prove an invalid point, go ahead.

All that said, the history of Utah, including the mormons, the US federal govt, how polygamy finally ended, and how Utah became a state, is fascinating and full of anecdotes anyone can use to justify almost any argument. But to post an anecdote or two on a message board and declare victory, seems a bit premature.

Nope

 

[TexanKnight]

Petulant whining, Zachary? In my 12 years of paying attention, the only people who call Joseph Smith names like “Joe” or “Joey boy”, are critics who are engaged in attacking some aspect of Joseph. Historically, the armed mobs who were clamoring for blood were shouting about “old Joe and his gold bible”.

Just for the record, when I discuss the Pope, I’ll continue to use the appropriate title Pope Francis, and not “Frankie-boy” or any other such insulting nonsense.

I don’t think it’s petulant whining to request that an atmosphere of civility needs to go both ways.

Seriously? Joe is a very common usage of Joseph. Very common. “Frankie Boy” is not a valid anything.

Geez.

 

[TexanKnight]

Way to bare your testimony. It sure didn’t take long.

I noticed you failed to address the fact that your “prophets” lied, to congress no less, and oh yes, Utah is the main reason women got the vote. (are you serious with that?)

Utah is also the state with the largest users of anti-depressant medication.

Utah is also the state with the largest internet porn subscriptions.

Utah is also the state with the largest number of ponzi/pyramid schemes.

Why didn’t you lay claim to that?

Oh, and by the way, I haven’t met you, so no, I still have not met a mormon that admits to the problems they themselves caused.

that speaks volumes

 

[NeuroTypical]

Texas never had polygamy though! Except for a small colony of non-LDS Mormons who lived here for a spell.

Ugh. Thank you for making the distinction. Warren Jeffs and his organization make me ill.

I am there to worship God, not to continue “serving” others, including my spouse and children.

Makes sense to me. Catholic theology about the afterlife is beautiful and very attractive.

You guys claim C.S. Lewis as one of yours, right? I loved his Narnya series - especially the later books which describe the final battle, and life /w Aslan in his land. Beautiful.

Do you find Mormonism to be obsessed with marriage and procreation - I do.

Procreation? No - besides trying to raise up youth where they’ll respect it and keep it in a covenental setting. Marriage? Absolutely mormons are obsessed with it. We believe marriage is a foundational element of God’s plan for us here and in the eternities.

No Christian faith shares the Mormon belief in eternal marriage because we believe the words of Jesus when he tells us there is no marriage in heaven.

Well, I’ve heard from a few different Christians that they do indeed believe marriage lasts past death. They’re tend to be Protestants, rather light on systematic theology, but no, you can’t really say Mormons are the only ones believing it.

You paint your idea of heaven with human, fleshly desires.

Help me out here - do Catholics believe in the resurrection (I know you believe in Christ’s resurrection, but what about His disciples)? In a physical resurrection or a spiritual only one? I understand and appreciate your fly → human analogy.

We will have an even more intimate relationship with our spouses and family then we ever had on earth, but it does not include procreation or sexual relations. We will be truly “one” as we share in the very life of God as adopted sons and daughters and what he has planned for us is beyond our capability to grasp.

Sounds beautiful. I’m with you on most of it. Mormons do believe in ‘eternal increase’ - I honestly don’t spend any time thinking about it. I know it gives childless couples comfort. You might call it a false hope, but then again, athiests would look at this forum and see us all arguing over which false hope is the best. I guess we’ll see.

May I ask how all this sealing business will work when we know, it is historically recorded that women were sealed to different men at the same time ie polyandry.

There’s a lot of details that mormons just don’t know. We can speculate only. My own personal speculation, is that Brigham and the pioneer saints had some Moses/Aaron/golden calf moments, and it took a while to get it all sorted out. I don’t claim to know the details. I haven’t even talked with my wife about kids in the afterlife. We’re happy with our two earthly ones. If her plans change, I’m sure she’ll let me know.

In the Book of Revelation, the picture that the Evangelist paints is one of eternal worship and praise in the glorious presence of God. Where is this in the Mormon view of heaven, come to that where does our Lord figure at all in your eternity, does he slide off into obscurity having done his bit?

I have never met the mormon who associates our Lord Jesus Christ with the phrase “slide off into obscurity”.

Way to bare your testimony. It sure didn’t take long.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to convey here. If it’s an insult, you’ll have to spell it out a little more plainly - I’m slow.

I noticed you failed to address the fact that your “prophets” lied, to congress no less

I acknowledge your use of scare quotes around the word prophets. And I reiterate my own stand - I have no problem referring to Catholic leaders by their actual titles. You won’t see me putting the title Pope in scare quotes, or any other Catholic title.

and oh yes, Utah is the main reason women got the vote. (are you serious with that?)

I never said “main reason”. I said one of the prime reasons - prime meaning first movers. Wyoming beat Utah to be the first state allowing women the right to vote, but I think Utah was actually the first state in the Union to hold an actual election where women voted.
I get a lot of my information from this article published by the Utah govt. It’s certianly not the only, or even best source. I’m not a historian any more than I am a lawyer or an english teacher.
historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/statehood_and_the_progressive_era/womenssuffrageinutah.html

Utah is also the state with the largest users of anti-depressant medication.
Utah is also the state with the largest internet porn subscriptions.
Utah is also the state with the largest number of ponzi/pyramid schemes.
Why didn’t you lay claim to that?

Well, if you look at the top right of my post, it might give you an indication. The studies of Utah are interesting, but the studies linking that stuff to Mormons I haven’t seen. The major population centers of Utah have had LDS in the minority for quite some time now, the state itself is less and less ‘mormon’ as time goes by also.

Besides that, haven’t you folks also put forth the argument numerous times about how my church keeps nonmormons on our books? Wouldn’t that further indicate that Utah’s suicide/antidepressant/porn/ponzi stats aren’t related to the church?

 

[NeuroTypical]

Seriously? Joe is a very common usage of Joseph. Very common. “Frankie Boy” is not a valid anything.

Geez.

Ok Texan. I see you defending your use of “Joe”, despite being told that mormons find it offensive. I guess if you want to be intentionally offensive to mormons, that’s your decision.

Will you also keep referring to him as “old Joe”, despite being made aware of how that term was often used by the violent mobs?

Nicea325 - will you continue to keep referring to my prophet as “Joey”?

Regardless of what you guys choose, I restate my dedication to not call Catholic leaders anything insulting. I feel that it doesn’t make for good respectful conversation.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I acknowledge your use of scare quotes around the word prophets. And I reiterate my own stand - I have no problem referring to Catholic leaders by their actual titles. You won’t see me putting the title Pope in scare quotes, or any other Catholic title.

The problem is “prophet” is not just an LDS title, it’s a title used by all Christians.

 

[TexanKnight]

Ok Texan. I see you defending your use of “Joe”, despite being told that mormons find it offensive. I guess if you want to be intentionally offensive to mormons, that’s your decision.

I have told you why I use Joe. I have told you it is not used to be offensive. I see no reason to grant him his grandiose use Joseph and I hate typing out the extra letters. I guess if you want to intentionally take offense, that is your decision

Will you also keep referring to him as “old Joe”, despite being made aware of how that term was often used by the violent mobs?

I will not use “Old Joe”

Regardless of what you guys choose, I restate my dedication to not call Catholic leaders anything insulting. I feel that it doesn’t make for good respectful conversation.

Joe is not insulting use for Joseph. If so, my best friend, Colonel Joseph LeBlanc, would not have let me call him Joe for the 30 years.

 

[TexanKnight]

I personally think the issue of “Joe” is just another way for Mormons to have us focus on something other than the points we raise. It is a way to misdirect the conversation

 

[RebeccaJ]

I personally think the issue of “Joe” is just another way for Mormons to have us focus on something other than the points we raise. It is a way to misdirect the conversation

Agreed, which is why I don’t use it. It’s charitable to help the Mormon posters maintain focus.

 

[TexanKnight]

Agreed, which is why I don’t use it. It’s charitable to help the Mormon posters maintain focus.

I don’t pander. Never have. If they did not move focus using this, they would find something else.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t pander. Never have. If they did not move focus using this, they would find something else.

Yes, they will, which is why with some LDS posters (not all), I keep my answers short and succinct. (That used to drive whyme nuts. Which provided a level of self-satisfaction, I must admit.) It isn’t pandering, it is strategizing!!

 

[TexanKnight]

Yes, they will, which is why with some LDS posters (not all), I keep my answers short and succinct. (That used to drive whyme nuts. Which provided a level of self-satisfaction, I must admit.) It isn’t pandering, it is strategizing!!

My strategy drives them all crazy…I always consider it a badge of glory when they stop responding. I love surrenders…

 

[lax16]

Ugh. Thank you for making the distinction. Warren Jeffs and his organization make me ill.

Now, obviously Warren Jeffs has had some issues…however, I consider the FLDS to be orthodox Mormons. What do you think?

Makes sense to me. Catholic theology about the afterlife is beautiful and very attractive.

And, it is biblical.

Procreation? No - besides trying to raise up youth where they’ll respect it and keep it in a covenental setting. Marriage? Absolutely mormons are obsessed with it. We believe marriage is a foundational element of God’s plan for us here and in the eternities.

I thought Mormons believe that you continue to produce offspring in heaven?

 

[CarolNoel]

Way to bare your testimony. It sure didn’t take long.

I noticed you failed to address the fact that your “prophets” lied, to congress no less, and oh yes, Utah is the main reason women got the vote. (are you serious with that?)

Utah is also the state with the largest users of anti-depressant medication.

Utah is also the state with the largest internet porn subscriptions.

Utah is also the state with the largest number of ponzi/pyramid schemes.

Why didn’t you lay claim to that?

Oh, and by the way, I haven’t met you, so no, I still have not met a mormon that admits to the problems they themselves caused.

I know about the anti-depressants. Lived in SLC and Ogden. Husband, MD. and I worked with him. Many, many of the women were on anti-depressants or wanted them. (He did not give RX, but referred to another specialist.

We also got caught by one of their schemes. Lost a bunch of $$.

 

[twopekinguys]

lol…yeah, it had nothing to do with the Mormons declaring war on people in Missouri. It had nothing to do with accusations of people taking other mens’ wives. it had nothing to do with Joe cheating people out of tons of money. It had nothing to do with threats of attacking other towns with their largest militia. It had nothing to do with any of that.

Right.

Let’s not ignore that Sidney Rigdon issued an extermination order a full 3 months before Gov. Boggs did.

 

[TexanKnight]

Let’s not ignore that Sidney Rigdon issued an extermination order a full 3 months before Gov. Boggs did.

yep

 

[twopekinguys]

Ugh. Thank you for making the distinction. Warren Jeffs and his organization make me ill.

Makes sense to me. Catholic theology about the afterlife is beautiful and very attractive.

You guys claim C.S. Lewis as one of yours, right? I loved his Narnya series - especially the later books which describe the final battle, and life /w Aslan in his land. Beautiful.

Procreation? No - besides trying to raise up youth where they’ll respect it and keep it in a covenental setting. Marriage? Absolutely mormons are obsessed with it. We believe marriage is a foundational element of God’s plan for us here and in the eternities.

Well, I’ve heard from a few different Christians that they do indeed believe marriage lasts past death. They’re tend to be Protestants, rather light on systematic theology, but no, you can’t really say Mormons are the only ones believing it.

Help me out here - do Catholics believe in the resurrection (I know you believe in Christ’s resurrection, but what about His disciples)? In a physical resurrection or a spiritual only one? I understand and appreciate your fly → human analogy.

Sounds beautiful. I’m with you on most of it. Mormons do believe in ‘eternal increase’ - I honestly don’t spend any time thinking about it. I know it gives childless couples comfort. You might call it a false hope, but then again, athiests would look at this forum and see us all arguing over which false hope is the best. I guess we’ll see.

There’s a lot of details that mormons just don’t know. We can speculate only. My own personal speculation, is that Brigham and the pioneer saints had some Moses/Aaron/golden calf moments, and it took a while to get it all sorted out. I don’t claim to know the details. I haven’t even talked with my wife about kids in the afterlife. We’re happy with our two earthly ones. If her plans change, I’m sure she’ll let me know.

I have never met the mormon who associates our Lord Jesus Christ with the phrase “slide off into obscurity”.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to convey here. If it’s an insult, you’ll have to spell it out a little more plainly - I’m slow.

I acknowledge your use of scare quotes around the word prophets. And I reiterate my own stand - I have no problem referring to Catholic leaders by their actual titles. You won’t see me putting the title Pope in scare quotes, or any other Catholic title.

I never said “main reason”. I said one of the prime reasons - prime meaning first movers. Wyoming beat Utah to be the first state allowing women the right to vote, but I think Utah was actually the first state in the Union to hold an actual election where women voted.
I get a lot of my information from this article published by the Utah govt. It’s certianly not the only, or even best source. I’m not a historian any more than I am a lawyer or an english teacher.
historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/statehood_and_the_progressive_era/womenssuffrageinutah.html

Well, if you look at the top right of my post, it might give you an indication. The studies of Utah are interesting, but the studies linking that stuff to Mormons I haven’t seen. The major population centers of Utah have had LDS in the minority for quite some time now, the state itself is less and less ‘mormon’ as time goes by also.

Besides that, haven’t you folks also put forth the argument numerous times about how my church keeps nonmormons on our books? Wouldn’t that further indicate that Utah’s suicide/antidepressant/porn/ponzi stats aren’t related to the church?

I’m not even going to deal with most of your dodges here, come on really? You can’t do any better than this?

I will address your “scare quotes” statement though. The reason “prophets” is in quotes, which aren’t scare quotes by the way is the fact that you can call someone a “prophet”, but unless they reveal a prophecy, they really aren’t one, now are they?

What kind of prophecy has Monson come out with? How about the ones that lied to congress?

You can’t have a “prophet” without them providing a “prophecy”. It really isn’t hard to follow.

Name the last mormon “prophecy” that was revealed by one of your “prophets” prior to the priesthood ban reversal.

Just because you sustain the next old guy as the president of your church, doesn’t make them a prophet.

 

[PRmerger]

Petulant whining, Zachary? In my 12 years of paying attention, the only people who call Joseph Smith names like “Joe” or “Joey boy”, are critics who are engaged in attacking some aspect of Joseph. Historically, the armed mobs who were clamoring for blood were shouting about “old Joe and his gold bible”.

Just for the record, when I discuss the Pope, I’ll continue to use the appropriate title Pope Francis, and not “Frankie-boy” or any other such insulting nonsense.

I don’t think it’s petulant whining to request that an atmosphere of civility needs to go both ways.

I agree with you. It is a disrespectful dismissal of Joseph Smith.

Quoting from another CAFs member: “I never use words like murder(er), heretic, hypocrite ,etc as those trying to defend the indefensible would like nothing more than to have the the discussion degenerate into a semantics argument over the meaning of words.” estesbob

Best to avoid opportunities for meaty dialogue to devolve into discussions about whether it’s appropriate or inappropriate to call someone a different name.

 

[TexanKnight]

I agree with you. It is a disrespectful dismissal of Joseph Smith.

Quoting from another CAFs member: “I never use words like murder(er), heretic, hypocrite ,etc as those trying to defend the indefensible would like nothing more than to have the the discussion degenerate into a semantics argument over the meaning of words.” estesbob

Best to avoid opportunities for meaty dialogue to devolve into discussions about whether it’s appropriate or inappropriate to call someone a different name.

lol…I guess I should start being offended when people call me Steve instead of Stephen since the people who call me Steve MUST be acting disrespectfully dismissive.

Sorry…but I find that funny.

 

[PRmerger]

At the end of the day, what I tell folks is the only good reason to be mormon, is you believe God wants you to be one. I do, so I am. If I did not, I doubt I’d be LDS - the history and truth claims are just too much for me to swallow otherwise.

The Catholic paradigm is: find the Church that Christ established and then join it, and conform your views to this Church.

I don’t believe that the LDS church can proffer any reasonable, valid argumentation that their church is the one established by Christ.