polygamy

[EnchantedEve]

With regards to priestly celibacy, the issue as regards to discipline vs. intrinsic sin, is very much relevant. As regards to the view conveyed as to value of celibacy, I quote again:

Our Lord, St. Matthew 19:12:
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 7:7-8, 32-35
For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I…But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

Herein lies the foundation of Catholic teaching regarding preferability of the celibate state, that it is of greater merit to priestly life than the married state.

The Catholic Encyclopedia 1911
regarding celibacy: “Virginity and marriage both holy, but in different ways. The conviction that virginity possesses a higher sanctity and clearer spiritual intuitions, seems to be an instinct planted deep in the heart of man.” Actually, the whole article is a good read!

Council of Trent:
CANON X.- “If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.”

I do not think you implied the above, but it again goes to show the view of the Church on celibacy as a higher and more sacred calling, more fitting to priestly life, than being married. To say that celibacy is mere discipline would be to ignore its rich doctrinal history, and to make it into a teaching far less than it truly is. In fact, you will find much more on the teaching of celibacy in the Church than polygamy.

Again, nowhere have I claimed polygamy is a good or that the Church should permit polygamy, only that it is not of its own nature sinful, and that while not permissible and certainly not good, in theory two or more Catholic marriage can exist and that this is not an impossibilty. The Catholic Faith has rendered polygamy not fitting for Christians, and that is all we need to know.

Hope this makes my point a little clearer. I try to avoid being vague!

 

[GraceDK]

Again, nowhere have I claimed polygamy is a good or that the Church should permit polygamy, only that it is not of its own nature sinful, and that** while not permissible and certainly not good, in theory two or more Catholic marriage can exist and that this is not an impossibilty**. The Catholic Faith has rendered polygamy not fitting for Christians, and that is all we need to know.

Hope this makes my point a little clearer. I try to avoid being vague!

But tell me, of what use is that theory? Can I live by that theory? No, I cannot. There is no True and Holy Spirit in the concept of polygamy.
As for your defence of scolasticism, I think the criticism raised against this school is worth to ponder, since there is a very long way from this kind of philosophical theology to the simple fishermen that Jesus appointed to be His immediate followers. they were to convey the Gospel to mankind. He did not choose the scribes to do this.
That being said, I respect Thomas… he was a brilliant mind. Was he more brilliant than … say, The Little Flower? No, hardly. Was he infallible? No. so, while his writings have a high place in catholic tradition it does not mean that we should treat every sentence and topic of his as a divine revelation.
As for priestly celibacy. Paul raged against people that denied the right of an apostle to marry a sister in Christ. Is virginity higher than married state? I would say… certainly, if its the will of God. As for Abraham… certainly not.
But this might be a discussion for another thread

 

[atassina]

How many of you women want multiple husbands? Please raise you hand. How many of you men want to be married to a woman who has multiple husbands? Please stand up.

 

[EnchantedEve]

But tell me, of what use is that theory? Can I live by that theory? No, I cannot. There is no True and Holy Spirit in the concept of polygamy.
As for your defence of scolasticism, I think the criticism raised against this school is worth to ponder, since there is a very long way from this kind of philosophical theology to the simple fishermen that Jesus appointed to be His immediate followers. they were to convey the Gospel to mankind. He did not choose the scribes to do this.
That being said, I respect Thomas… he was a brilliant mind. Was he more brilliant than … say, The Little Flower? No, hardly. Was he infallible? No. so, while his writings have a high place in catholic tradition it does not mean that we should treat every sentence and topic of his as a divine revelation.
As for priestly celibacy. Paul raged against people that denied the right of an apostle to marry a sister in Christ. Is virginity higher than married state? I would say… certainly, if its the will of God. As for Abraham… certainly not.
But this might be a discussion for another thread

Oh, I am not saying it is useful to know this theory, only that it is possible.

I will say however that we walk a dangerous line if we criticize Scholasticism, since as one of the above quotes from Pope Innocent VI mentions: “that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error.” Philosophical crticism always has its place, but I believe the philosophy held out by the Catholic Church as being its own is a hard one to assail. This would also be a good topic for another thread, though.

The journey in Truth continues!

 

[mark_a]

or a girl marry her mobile phone…?

 

[atassina]

mark: would you like to be married to a woman who has another husband?

 

[chain]

With Polygamy, lets imagine that a polygamous family were to turn to the church and say, 'We made a mistake! I married 4 women and had children with all of them…

I can only guess, but I suspect the church would view it as a unlawful / un-blessed marriage. If they continued to live in that arrangement, they would probably be denied the sacraments (not sure if that would apply to baptism or last rites).

 

[Benadam]

I can only guess, but I suspect the church would view it as a unlawful / un-blessed marriage. If they continued to live in that arrangement, they would probably be denied the sacraments (not sure if that would apply to baptism or last rites).

Polygamy is reduced to a status symbol in societies that produce both genders in equal number. In addition a polygamous society of that kind will produce more competitive males and a class of men that are denied the fulfillment of a state of life that reveals their masculinity. A class of men in despair.

 

[CarlosMorales]

Polygamy is always and everywhere evil and sinful. It is by definition adultery which is against the natural and divine law.

God Bless

If so, how could God tolerate it in the old testament? Didn’t Abraham practice it? King David too. In the new testament, Jesus says that it was tolerated “out of the hardness of your hearts.” Harsh words, but the fact seems to be that it was tolerated.

 

[GraceDK]

If so, how could God tolerate it in the old testament? Didn’t Abraham practice it? King David too. In the new testament, Jesus says that it was tolerated “out of the hardness of your hearts.” Harsh words, but the fact seems to be that it was tolerated.

I am a bit confused about your Scripture verses…
Jesus said that **divorce letters **were tolerated by Moses due to the hardness of their hearts… Jesus never spoke of polygamy.
Abraham took a second wife because he lacked faith in the promises of God… he therefore took Hagaj who was later sent away with Ishmael, which is not a pretty story and tells us exactly of the bad consequences of polygamy: jealousy, harshness, abandonment, grief and rebellion for whole nations…
You say David practiced polygamy. I think you mean Solomo, his son, no? He was known for his many wives… a sad thing to have as a royal privilege… we do not hear that it was a common practice at the time.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

FYI, I couldn’t do this but let’s be truthful, I looked it up and found this, and I guess that answers my question on this subject!
Polygamy has been practiced by mankind for thousands of years. Many of the ancient Israelites were polygamous, some having hundreds of wives. King Solomon(S) is said to have had seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines. David(S) (Dawood) had ninety-nine and Jacob(S) (Yakub) had four. Advice given by some Jewish wise men state that no man should marry more than four wives.

No early society put any restrictions on the number of wives or put any conditions about how they were to be treated. Jesus was not known to have spoken against polygamy. As recent as the 17th century, polygamy was practiced and accepted by the Christian Church. The Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints) has allowed and practiced polygamy in the United States.

Monogamy was introduced into Christianity at the time of Paul when many revisions took place in Christianity. This was done in order for the church to conform to the Greco-Roman culture where men were monogamous but owned many slaves who were free for them to use: in other word, unrestricted polygamy.

Early Christians invented ideas that women were “full of sin” and man was better off to “never marry.” Since this would be the end of mankind, these same people compromised and said “marry only one.”

Many times in the American society when relations are strained, the husband simply deserts his wife. Then he cohabits with a prostitute or other immoral woman without marriage.

Actually there are three kinds of polygamy practiced in Western societies: (1) serial polygamy, that is, marriage, divorce, marriage, divorce and so on any number of times; (2) a man married to one woman but having and supporting one or more mistresses; (3) an unmarried man having a number of mistresses. Islam condones but discourages the first and forbids the other two.

Wars cause the number of women to greatly exceed the number of men. In a monogamous society these women, left without husbands or support, resort to prostitution, illicit relationships with married men resulting in illegitimate children with no responsibility on the part of the father, or lonely spinsterhood or widowhood.

Some Western men take the position that monogamy protects the rights of women. But are these men really concerned about the rights of women? The society has many practices that exploit and suppress women, leading to women’s liberation movements from the suffragettes of the early twentieth century to the feminists of today.

The truth of the matter is that monogamy protects men, allowing them to " play around" without responsibility. Easy birth control and easy legal abortion has opened the door of illicit sex to women and she has been lured into the so-called sexual revolution. But she is still the one who suffers the trauma of abortion and the side effects of birth control methods.

Taking aside the plagues of venereal disease, herpes and AIDS, the male continues to enjoy himself free of worry. Men are the ones protected by monogamy while women continue to be victims of men’s desires. Polygamy is very much opposed by the male dominated society because it would force men to face up to responsibility and fidelity. It would force them to take responsibility for their polygamous inclinations and would protect and provide for women and children.

Among all the polygamous societies in history there were none that limited the number of wives. All of the relationships were unrestricted. In Islam, the regulations concerning polygamy limit the number of wives a man can have while making him responsible for all of the women involved.

“If you fear that you will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one or one that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.” (Qur’an 4:3)

This verse from the Qur’an allows a man to marry more than one woman but only if he can deal justly with them. Another verse says that a person is unable to deal justly between wives, thus giving permission but discouraging it.

“You will never be able to deal justly between wives however much you desire (to do so). But (if you have more than one wife) do not turn altogether away (from one), leaving her as in suspense…” (Qur’an 4:129)

While the provision for polygamy makes the social system flexible enough to deal with all kinds of conditions, it is not necessarily recommended or preferred by Islam. Taking the example of the Prophet Muhammad(S) is instructive. He was married to one woman, Khadijah, for twenty-five years. It was only after her death when he had reached the age of fifty that he entered into other marriages to promote friendships, create alliances or to be an example of some lesson to the community; also to show the Muslims how to treat their spouses under different conditions of life.

Don’t be mad at me, for the truth.

 

[Benadam]

Jesus taught the true meaning of marriage when He pointed our minds to the beginning. He didn’t say Moses was wrong for allowing divorce or teach that Abraham would have fared better had he not generated offspring from a concubine but He did teach that the state of marriage that is it’s ultimate end in od by pointing at it’s primordial beginning.

That being said, don’t forget Genesis Chapter 6. Polygamy is the grave sin of the age committed by the Sons of God. Also notice that the first mention of polygamy is in cain’s line the husband of which was Lamech. Lamech is a sign of sin just as Enoch is a visible sign of salvation. In the passage about Lamech he becomes a sign of increasing sin. He say’s to his wives; Vengence for can is sevenfold vengence for Lamech is 77 times 7. Sidekicker; How many times must we forgive our neighbor ? Jesus says 7 times 77. So this is where polygamy and the first polygamist is introduced and how. It isn’t a condemnation of polygamy per sey because it can have salvific purpose in certain conditions but if it doesn’t… it is probably serving sin and pride.

Since men and women are born in equal numbers it’s a kind of hording that stratifies men as a symbol of power and status and conversely a symbol of humiliation and weakness for the men who will never marry because of the men who get many

Satan hates the congugal act when it is an act that reveals the trinity in the disinterested gift of self that finds expression generating the image of the father.

The naked love produced by the internal gaze where nothing is hidden nor causes shame. all other forms of marriage practiced by societies over the ages will tend toward monogamy in obedience to the intuited law of nature that orders the rul that binds couples in the human pairbond called marriage.

 

[Benadam]

FYI, I couldn’t do this but let’s be truthful, I looked it up and found this, and I guess that answers my question on this subject!
Polygamy has been practiced by mankind for thousands of years. Many of the ancient Israelites were polygamous, some having hundreds of wives. King Solomon(S) is said to have had seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines. David(S) (Dawood) had ninety-nine and Jacob(S) (Yakub) had four. Advice given by some Jewish wise men state that no man should marry more than four wives.

No early society put any restrictions on the number of wives or put any conditions about how they were to be treated. Jesus was not known to have spoken against polygamy. As recent as the 17th century, polygamy was practiced and accepted by the Christian Church. The Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints) has allowed and practiced polygamy in the United States.

Monogamy was introduced into Christianity at the time of Paul when many revisions took place in Christianity. This was done in order for the church to conform to the Greco-Roman culture where men were monogamous but owned many slaves who were free for them to use: in other word, unrestricted polygamy.

Early Christians invented ideas that women were “full of sin” and man was better off to “never marry.” Since this would be the end of mankind, these same people compromised and said “marry only one.”

Many times in the American society when relations are strained, the husband simply deserts his wife. Then he cohabits with a prostitute or other immoral woman without marriage.

Actually there are three kinds of polygamy practiced in Western societies: (1) serial polygamy, that is, marriage, divorce, marriage, divorce and so on any number of times; (2) a man married to one woman but having and supporting one or more mistresses; (3) an unmarried man having a number of mistresses. Islam condones but discourages the first and forbids the other two.

Wars cause the number of women to greatly exceed the number of men. In a monogamous society these women, left without husbands or support, resort to prostitution, illicit relationships with married men resulting in illegitimate children with no responsibility on the part of the father, or lonely spinsterhood or widowhood.

Some Western men take the position that monogamy protects the rights of women. But are these men really concerned about the rights of women? The society has many practices that exploit and suppress women, leading to women’s liberation movements from the suffragettes of the early twentieth century to the feminists of today.

The truth of the matter is that monogamy protects men, allowing them to " play around" without responsibility. Easy birth control and easy legal abortion has opened the door of illicit sex to women and she has been lured into the so-called sexual revolution. But she is still the one who suffers the trauma of abortion and the side effects of birth control methods.

Taking aside the plagues of venereal disease, herpes and AIDS, the male continues to enjoy himself free of worry. Men are the ones protected by monogamy while women continue to be victims of men’s desires. Polygamy is very much opposed by the male dominated society because it would force men to face up to responsibility and fidelity. It would force them to take responsibility for their polygamous inclinations and would protect and provide for women and children.

Among all the polygamous societies in history there were none that limited the number of wives. All of the relationships were unrestricted. In Islam, the regulations concerning polygamy limit the number of wives a man can have while making him responsible for all of the women involved.

This verse from the Qur’an allows a man to marry more than one woman but only if he can deal justly with them. Another verse says that a person is unable to deal justly between wives, thus giving permission but discouraging it.

“You will never be able to deal justly between wives however much you desire (to do so). But (if you have more than one wife) do not turn altogether away (from one), leaving her as in suspense…” (Qur’an 4:129)

While the provision for polygamy makes the social system flexible enough to deal with all kinds of conditions, it is not necessarily recommended or preferred by Islam. Taking the example of the Prophet Muhammad(S) is instructive. He was married to one woman, Khadijah, for twenty-five years. It was only after her death when he had reached the age of fifty that he entered into other marriages to promote friendships, create alliances or to be an example of some lesson to the community; also to show the Muslims how to treat their spouses under different conditions of life.

Don’t be mad at me, for the truth.

Dear Nancy, so glad to read your post!

I am responding because I’ve grown fond of you and feel a need to relate to you some information. There is some good information about polygamy in the muslim teaching you mentioned. Unfortunately it seems it was only to support the distortions about it that serve to cover the stains of blood caused by a society of men seeking to masculate themselves and the destructive results produced by a population of men is dispair demasulated in a society of intensified by polygamy to seek a symbol of masculinity

I read alot of anti-christian propoganda and much of what they are saying in your post is geared toward an accusation of falsehood rather than an expression of truth. That happens when truth is not possessed and can’t be taught so as to reveal error in the privacy of the higher faculties.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

HI Benadam, I put what I found because every where I went I could not find anything differnt, but it does not mean I believe that way. I alway’s wanted that question answered because of the people that came to my door and we argued about it and I couldn’t join their church because of that reason, but I couldn’t defend the Bible either and I just wanted to be fair.I can’t see if their was 10 commandments why they did that, can you? I think it stinks and it is unfair to woman and I am glad their are men who believe differnt, and defend marraige, so maybe by bringing it out in the open you can defend the Lord and explain it better? Are you still fond of me? Love of Christ Nancy

 

[Benadam]

HI Benadam, I put what I found because every where I went I could not find anything differnt, but it does not mean I believe that way. I alway’s wanted that question answered because of the people that came to my door and we argued about it and I couldn’t join their church because of that reason, but I couldn’t defend the Bible either and I just wanted to be fair.I can’t see if their was 10 commandments why they did that, can you? I think it stinks and it is unfair to woman and I am glad their are men who believe differnt, and defend marraige, so maybe by bringing it out in the open you can defend the Lord and explain it better? Are you still fond of me? Love of Christ Nancy

Nancy…I didn’t think you would believe that stuff…I’m glad I was right. Anyway check post 93 or 92…I posted a short biblically centered perspective

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Jesus taught the true meaning of marriage when He pointed our minds to the beginning. He didn’t say Moses was wrong for allowing divorce or teach that Abraham would have fared better had he not generated offspring from a concubine but He did teach that the state of marriage that is it’s ultimate end in od by pointing at it’s primordial beginning.

That being said, don’t forget Genesis Chapter 6. Polygamy is the grave sin of the age committed by the Sons of God. Also notice that the first mention of polygamy is in cain’s line the husband of which was Lamech. Lamech is a sign of sin just as Enoch is a visible sign of salvation. In the passage about Lamech he becomes a sign of increasing sin. He say’s to his wives; Vengence for can is sevenfold vengence for Lamech is 77 times 7. Sidekicker; How many times must we forgive our neighbor ? Jesus says 7 times 77. So this is where polygamy and the first polygamist is introduced and how. It isn’t a condemnation of polygamy per sey because it can have salvific purpose in certain conditions but if it doesn’t… it is probably serving sin and pride.

Since men and women are born in equal numbers it’s a kind of hording that stratifies men as a symbol of power and status and conversely a symbol of humiliation and weakness for the men who will never marry because of the men who get many

Satan hates the congugal act when it is an act that reveals the trinity in the disinterested gift of self that finds expression generating the image of the father.

The naked love produced by the internal gaze where nothing is hidden nor causes shame. all other forms of marriage practiced by societies over the ages will tend toward monogamy in obedience to the intuited law of nature that orders the rul that binds couples in the human pairbond called marriage.

Hello! I did understand the last part but your word’s I cannot comprehend to well. And to take an educated guess would be ignorant, so please inlighten me on the first part? You sound poetic, that is beautiful but I cannot follow and I realy want to. God Bless and thank You.

 

[Benadam]

Even though we think of polygamy as wrong and divorce as wrong…and for us they are but apparently it was better to allow divorce and Jesus didn’t call down fire and brimstone on polygamy. In fact if lots daughters were the last two women and Lot the last man on earth laying with their father would have been necessary for humanity to return to God. So it would have been good to do.

Jesus pointed our minds to Adam and Eve as the ideal marital state.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Even though we think of polygamy as wrong and divorce as wrong…and for us they are but apparently it was better to allow divorce and Jesus didn’t call down fire and brimstone on polygamy. In fact if lots daughters were the last two women and Lot the last man on earth laying with their father would have been necessary for humanity to return to God. So it would have been good to do.

Jesus pointed our minds to Adam and Eve as the ideal marital state.

HI Dear, This is what I was talking about. That was what Joseph Smith claimed, that it was during the war and he was keeping the population going. Are we to live as animals one minute to survive and human’s the other? If it is wrong then it should be wrong? And If abortion is wrong,why can’t we bend the rules for a 9 year old child? Something is not right here.

 

[Benadam]

HI Dear, This is what I was talking about. That was what Joseph Smith claimed, that it was during the war and he was keeping the population going. Are we to live as animals one minute to survive and human’s the other? If it is wrong then it should be wrong? And If abortion is wrong,why can’t we bend the rules for a 9 year old child? Something is not right here.

The salvation of souls were not threatened in Joseph Smith’s circumstances so the decent into an inferior state of marriage lacked a natural reason. The natural law for the reproduction of flesh and the state of marriage proper to man flows from the law that governs behavior known a spairbonding.

the pairbond in animals creates a safe environment for reproduction. In lower anuimals it may be of short duration just time eneogh to keep the two from engaging each other as competitors like they would otherwise. Some animals the pairbond creates a safe environment for the raising of youg as well.

Marriage is the human pairbond. It fulfills the same purpose but elevated by the higher faculties. The natural law orders the rule of matrimonial life. The human pairbond originated in a state of sanctity and was meant to preserve it so that all human life would begin in a sanctified state.

As for abortion the Incarnation demonstrates to us that human life is dignified at conception. The dignity of the human life in the womb is not of a lesser order than any other human life.

What are the circumstances surrounding the 9 year old you mentioned?..Well at any rate wherever a human life is and whatever condition or developemental stage, it is endowed by God with the same dignity as any other human life and it’s life will be accounted for by it’s creator.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

The salvation of souls were not threatened in Joseph Smith’s circumstances so the decent into an inferior state of marriage lacked a natural reason. The natural law for the reproduction of flesh and the state of marriage proper to man flows from the law that governs behavior known a spairbonding.

the pairbond in animals creates a safe environment for reproduction. In lower anuimals it may be of short duration just time eneogh to keep the two from engaging each other as competitors like they would otherwise. Some animals the pairbond creates a safe environment for the raising of youg as well.

Marriage is the human pairbond. It fulfills the same purpose but elevated by the higher faculties. The natural law orders the rule of matrimonial life. The human pairbond originated in a state of sanctity and was meant to preserve it so that all human life would begin in a sanctified state.

As for abortion the Incarnation demonstrates to us that human life is dignified at conception. The dignity of the human life in the womb is not of a lesser order than any other human life.

What are the circumstances surrounding the 9 year old you mentioned?..Well at any rate wherever a human life is and whatever condition or developemental stage, it is endowed by God with the same dignity as any other human life and it’s life will be accounted for by it’s creator.

I know you are tired and I have kept you up. I think i do understand what you are trying for me to sink in my head. It would be more natural for polygamy when the species will get extinct then it would be for un naturaly aborting a baby. All thing’s have to be done natural in the Catholic church? And can we talk about something another time at your convinence? I think you might be able to help me see more clearly and feel differntly and that would mean alot to me. You have feelings and I like that in anyone. Thank You and I am tired to: good night Benadam, you are loved Nancy