Polygenism and evolution

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According to Catholic apologist and author Frank Sheed, the story of Genesis began with man and woman in the Garden. After 500 years, the first 5 books were written and needed a grand opening. A poet decided to write the opening which we call Genesis 1. The “creation account” didn’t exist until 500 years after the first 5 books were already written. Thats the history of Genesis, again according to Frank Sheed.
I believe that the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses. Sheed is free to disagree but, in the Gospel accounts, Jesus occasionally refers to the Mosaic authorship of these books. (I don’t have a list of these references and I don’t have the time to make one, but I think you know what I’m talking about.)

I do find it interesting that people have to keep coming up with these theories just to avoid taking Scripture at face value.

Gary
 
Gary, I am not against what you are exploring – but I think your argument needs deeper foundations. A public opinion sampling does not always accurately reflect the body of knowledge about a subject.

eg: In the first place, why start “only” with the book of Genesis? It was written in a historical background which we have evidence about – and which allows us to recognize political undertones in its apologetic against other religions which it views as corrupt. These apologetics, though, often take the form of mocking the other religions choice of images and language. eg: The stars are part of a calendar, rather than being God’s in their own rite, or fire altars of sacrifice in the heavens as some Greeks seem to suggest.

🙂 – actually, however one starts reading scripture – biblical interpretation, like science, generally adheres to the hypotheses and theory pattern of growth in understanding.
Those who read in an interpretation (which how else does one grasp the text?) are either arrogant or humble.
The humble ones check their work in hopes of eliminating personal errors…others just shove an ill fitting interpretation (secular or religious) into the foray to bicker.

Quite easily, by noting the context in which statements are made. In many modern commentaries fictional (or rather) parody is used politically to convey both truths and ridicule – these Genre’s presume, however, that the audience shares a common experience of how the various “factions” attempt to “prove” their point. Ignorance of history is ignorance of important telltale signs of what authors mean by their statements.

Yankee doodle went to town…

– Some speculation posted (not singling you out) needs a bit of thoughtful analysis to show weaknesses.

Glad to meet you.
–Andrew.
Reading all this I wonder if you accept the Scriptures as being inspired by the Holy Spirit. You say that Genesis was written with “political undertones” as an apologetic against religions viewed as false. That sounds to me like you are saying that the human authors had an agenda in their writing other than to present the truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit. I’d just like you to clarify what you believe about the Bible and its divine origin.

Gary
 
I believe that the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses. Sheed is free to disagree but, in the Gospel accounts, Jesus occasionally refers to the Mosaic authorship of these books. (I don’t have a list of these references and I don’t have the time to make one, but I think you know what I’m talking about.)

I do find it interesting that people have to keep coming up with these theories just to avoid taking Scripture at face value.

Gary
According to the Toledoths of Genesis the books were compiled by Moses. There were pre-existing tablets that He had access too.
 
Sorry, but I’m not going to waste my time on anything Sungenis has to say on the topic.

Peace

Tim
Why, because you don’t like some of his other works? Does that invalidate verything he writes?
 
Why, because you don’t like some of his other works? Does that invalidate verything he writes?
In a way, yes. When one goes off the deep end on a subject (one directly related to this discussion), he loses credibility in his other writings as far as I am concerned.

Peace

Tim
 
In a way, yes. When one goes off the deep end on a subject (one directly related to this discussion), he loses credibility in his other writings as far as I am concerned.

Peace

Tim
It is illogical.

For example - his recent writings on the Jews and his subsequent letters to the Bishops had them change the US Catechism’s reference to the covenant. He certainly had great credibility there.
 
It is illogical.

For example - his recent writings on the Jews and his subsequent letters to the Bishops had them change the US Catechism’s reference to the covenant. He certainly had great credibility there.
We are not talking about that though, are we?

He may be right in his other writings. The problem is, I have seen the garbage he puts out on “scientific” topics. Because of that, all of his writings are suspect to me.

He isn’t the only source of apologetics and I refuse to accept anything he writes unless it is backed up by others.

Peace

Tim
 
We are not talking about that though, are we?

He may be right in his other writings. The problem is, I have seen the garbage he puts out on “scientific” topics. Because of that, all of his writings are suspect to me.

He isn’t the only source of apologetics and I refuse to accept anything he writes unless it is backed up by others.

Peace

Tim
He has other backing on the Toledoths.
 
He has other backing on the Toledoths.
Doesn’t mean that I will go to his website.

I don’t believe, as I am allowed by the Church, that the creation stories in Genesis are literally true. I believe that you and I have discussed this before.

Peace

Tim
 
Doesn’t mean that I will go to his website.

I don’t believe, as I am allowed by the Church, that the creation stories in Genesis are literally true. I believe that you and I have discussed this before.

Peace

Tim
The Toledoths show where the material came from, who compiled it and other things. It is worth reading.
 
According to the Toledoths of Genesis the books were compiled by Moses. There were pre-existing tablets that He had access too.
It is irrelevant whether Moses used source material or not. I doubt it however since the Pentateuch was obvioiuisly written while wandering in the wilderness and clay tablets just don’t mix well with a nomadic lifestyle.

Gary
 
Reading all this I wonder if you accept the Scriptures as being inspired by the Holy Spirit. You say that Genesis was written with “political undertones” as an apologetic against religions viewed as false. That sounds to me like you are saying that the human authors had an agenda in their writing other than to present the truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit. I’d just like you to clarify what you believe about the Bible and its divine origin.

Gary
Gary,
I would hold that every book of the prophets is a polemic against sin in the nation of Israel (even Jonas)-- and particularly against the abuses invited by the royal family. Therefore, every book of the prophets has an agenda. It is only that the Agenda came from God himself.

I find, that to a lesser extent, Genesis and the other books of Moses (which do not record every historical detail, but only a selection) have chosen to emphasize items which the audience would benefit from.

One simple example, in the context of this thread, is the fact that Genesis states that “every” animal was brought to Adam to be named. Now, there are cows which have been selectively engineered to show forth characteristics never before known in animals at the dawn of time.

This doesn’t mean Genesis is in error – it does mean, however, that the author is emphasizing something that was of importance in agreement of his knowledge at the time – man is greater than the animals.

Although not a “proof”, it is none the less a strong indication that the most common corruption of pagan religions – eg: worshiping the creature (eg: the multi half-animal constructions of the Egyptians, etc.) was false.
Adam was given the choice of any animal as a mate – and he named them all. None was worthy – that is, none was as great as himself.

Whatever meaning is read from Genesis, it does not conflict with reality. Should a reading of Genesis appear to do so – then a mistake has been made about why the author wrote the way they did. Errors can appear in scripture, but they are minor errors (eg: copying errors) and do not affect the overall truth of the scriptures. God inspired (breathed life into) – he did not DICTATE the bible (just as he breathed life into man, but gave him a free will as well.)
 
It is irrelevant whether Moses used source material or not. I doubt it however since the Pentateuch was obvioiuisly written while wandering in the wilderness and clay tablets just don’t mix well with a nomadic lifestyle.

Gary
I don’t know, the Ark of the Covenant moved around pretty well.
 
Catholic Dogma says:

  1. *]The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
    *]The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
    *]Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
    *]The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
    *]Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
    *]Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
    *]A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
    *]The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
    *]God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
    *]Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
    *]The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
    *]The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)
    *]The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
    *]The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
    *]Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
    *]Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
    *]Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
    *]Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
    *]Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
    *]Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
    *]Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
    *]In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
    *]Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)
    Adam had other children and early on incest between the offspring was permitted, and not intrinsically evil as parent to child would be.

  1. What basis is there for allowing incest, that does not allow paedophilia ?​

    The ““yuk” factor” can hardly be the answer - some people find the very idea of sex utterly revolting. The immorality of incest is a clue to the fictional nature of the story. If incest was lawful in the past, it still can be, in principle: which reduces the current prohibition to no more than a matter of positive law :eek:
 
One simple example, in the context of this thread, is the fact that Genesis states that “every” animal was brought to Adam to be named. Now, there are cows which have been selectively engineered to show forth characteristics never before known in animals at the dawn of time.
I would be keen to see your example of this “cow”, since I doubt anything “new” could arise.

.
 
I would be keen to see your example of this “cow”, since I doubt anything “new” could arise.
Gee, rather than a cow – which might get argued pointlessly into the ground, although they have been modified – how about a rabbit which GLOWS. It is a stupid, frivolous way to prove the point – but a jellyfish rabbit is a new one!

abcnews.go.com/Technology/Health/story?id=1498324
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Gee, rather than a cow – which might get argued pointlessly into the ground, although they have been modified – how about a rabbit which GLOWS. It is a stupid, frivolous way to prove the point – but a jellyfish rabbit is a new one!
Watch me pull a rabbit of my hat

Nothing new here.
 
Watch me pull a rabbit of my hat

Nothing new here.
If you have a glowing genetically engineered rabbit – I’d love to buy one from you. The french outfit is a tad expensive.

Or is this Rocky and Bullwinkle version, eg: it is really a lyon.

But seriously, do you think that a glowing rabbit existed at the dawn of time? (or pigs, or mice…)

Or for that matter, the new fruit in the store – the apriplum?
I have tasted those, and they never existed before…

Peace.
 
What is the official Catholic document, besides Pius XII’s Humani Generis, that says we must, as Chatholics, believe in Adam and Eve’s real existence? There were a number of other things that were stated on that document regarding things that we must believe regarding the Scriptures? Does anytone know this?
 
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