Polygomy Is A Lesser Offense Than Divorce and Re-Marriage

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Steve40

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I am sickened that the state of Texas has decided to take innocent people’s children away because some other people may be statutory rapists and now they are fishing for evidence. The initial cause for their raid no longer exists. You don’t take someone’s kids away because the guy down the street is a statutory rapist. You go after the statutory rapist.

Some of the media is focusing in on how polygomy hurts children. Well I say divorce and re-mariage is worse for children. How many reporters have multiple kids with multiple wives. They no longer live with some of their children. Divorce and re-marriage is worse.
 
Well, children from broken and divorced families can make the decisions about their life - apparently that is not the case here - there were cases when young girls were just married off. You can actually go round and round, and think what is best for children, but every case will be individual. You might have heard about the case of Christian Scientists who refused to seek medical help until it was too late and the child died - but they were a loving family, should the state interfere here or not? Or situations when a child comes from a Jehova Witnesses family and needs blood transfusion - should the parents here have the complete power and authority over the lives of their children?

Plus, you can use the same argument and say that broken families are still better than abusive or disfunctional families - so should the state ever interfere with a life of a family? In ideal world, no, but in some cases I think that sometimes it not only should, it must.
 
Danuska said:
Well, children from broken and divorced families can make the decisions about their life - apparently that is not the case here - there were cases when young girls were just married off. You can actually go round and round, and think what is best for children, but every case will be individual. You might have heard about the case of Christian Scientists who refused to seek medical help until it was too late and the child died - but they were a loving family, should the state interfere here or not? Or situations when a child comes from a Jehova Witnesses family and needs blood transfusion - should the parents here have the complete power and authority over the lives of their children?

Plus, you can use the same argument and say that broken families are still better than abusive or disfunctional families - so should the state ever interfere with a life of a family? In ideal world, no, but in some cases I think that sometimes it not only should, it must.
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In this case the State of Texas screwed up and the sooner they admit it, the better. My point is that just because you are a polygomist it doesn’t mean you should have your children taken away. Was every family here who had there children taken away forcing their teens to marry and have sex with older men? Where is the evidence of that? Be careful you may be next. The guy next door to you might be forcing his young daught to have sex with his buddy. The State might take your kids away because you live next to him.

As individuals we have rights and freedom. Maybe we should just put all polygomist on a reservation where they can be monitored. While we’re at it let’s put the divorced and remarried on the reservation too.
 
If the guy next door is forcing his daughter to have sex with my buddy, he is comitting mortal sin. Period. The matter deserves at least an invesitgation, for the sake of his poor, underage daughter. I fail to see what it has to do with my kids. Nobody is investigating families who live separately. They live in a compound with communal aspects, not a gated community, not a subdivision, not a neighborhood.

I have been in a position with a son with severe organic mental problems who reported us to DCFS (children’s services) on a rather consistent time table. He reported my parents, too. Sometimes, this agency was less than bright on the subject, what my attorney called “one dimensional” in fact. Sometimes, the agency had a case worker (who didn’t have to have any college credits in social work, just a BA or BS of some sort) who had half a brain cell to see what was really going on. In any event, my daughter was never removed from our custody, and having an attorney helped immeasurably.

Can you prove, Steve, your allegations that the State of Texas screwed up? How so? Please cite your evidence, with the references. And don’t say, “You quote yours”. I’m not the one who opened the thread.

To my mind, the investigation has barely started. CPS received a phone complaint. They sent out a case worker. The case worker found some sort of evidence. This resulted in a larger investigation.

Just what do you propose to do with 400+ children?Leave them all there and not get answers due to possible intimidation? They can’t seize the property to make the invesitgation neutral.

While I think this is going to be rough sledding for CPS, I also think the compound is not going to be let off so easily. And I fail to see your connection to moral theology.
 
You’re being a bit cynical here, dude. If I understand the situation correctly, the children were taken away until the state finds out who’s who. And what child goes with what family. No records were kept on that. And having your daughter married off at a young age, and her not having a say in the matter, is a real offense. What would you do if you and your child were in that position? Would you just let it happen? Or would you want to do something about it? Even if it meant that the state were to step in?
 
Steve40 said:
In this case the State of Texas screwed up and the sooner they admit it, the better. My point is that just because you are a polygomist it doesn’t mean you should have your children taken away. Was every family here who had there children taken away forcing their teens to marry and have sex with older men? Where is the evidence of that? Be careful you may be next. The guy next door to you might be forcing his young daught to have sex with his buddy. The State might take your kids away because you live next to him.

As individuals we have rights and freedom. Maybe we should just put all polygomist on a reservation where they can be monitored. While we’re at it let’s put the divorced and remarried on the reservation too.
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Wow, are you serious?! First of all this was a cult, not simply a town called Mayberry, USA. They lived in a compound as opposed to a neighborhood. Several children under the age of 16 have already been identified as being either pregnant or as having already given birth. You can attempt to rationalize this if you wish but you only make yourself look foolish. Divorce and remarriage is wrong yes, but lets be honest, are we to simply turn away when we find children being sexually abused because there are adults out there that are on their 2nd or 3rd marriage? Pleassssse! I am sure that most of the children currently in custody are not being used in this way (thank God law enforcement stepped in when they did) however, there is little doubt that many were and if we have to inconvenience these “families” while things get sorted out… to bad!!!
 
Steve40 said:
My point is that just because you are a polygomist it doesn’t mean you should have your children taken away.
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Okay.
Was every family here who had there children taken away forcing their teens to marry and have sex with older men? Where is the evidence of that?
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Previous news stories about the Fundamentalist Ladder Day Saints in Arizona suggest that it is a common practice with them.
Be careful you may be next. The guy next door to you might be forcing his young daught to have sex with his buddy. The State might take your kids away because you live next to him.
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I don’t think that is a serious threat. Texas didn’t simply round up the children because they happened to live in the neighborhood. The state intervened because the families all belong to the same cult and because the cult has an extensive history of this abuse.
 
OutinChgoburbs said:
If the guy next door is forcing his daughter to have sex with my buddy, he is comitting mortal sin. Period. The matter deserves at least an invesitgation, for the sake of his poor, underage daughter. I fail to see what it has to do with my kids. Nobody is investigating families who live separately. They live in a compound with communal aspects, not a gated community, not a subdivision, not a neighborhood.

I have been in a position with a son with severe organic mental problems who reported us to DCFS (children’s services) on a rather consistent time table. He reported my parents, too. Sometimes, this agency was less than bright on the subject, what my attorney called “one dimensional” in fact. Sometimes, the agency had a case worker (who didn’t have to have any college credits in social work, just a BA or BS of some sort) who had half a brain cell to see what was really going on. In any event, my daughter was never removed from our custody, and having an attorney helped immeasurably.

Can you prove, Steve, your allegations that the State of Texas screwed up? How so? Please cite your evidence, with the references. And don’t say, “You quote yours”. I’m not the one who opened the thread.

To my mind, the investigation has barely started. CPS received a phone complaint. They sent out a case worker. The case worker found some sort of evidence. This resulted in a larger investigation.

Just what do you propose to do with 400+ children?Leave them all there and not get answers due to possible intimidation? They can’t seize the property to make the invesitgation neutral.

While I think this is going to be rough sledding for CPS, I also think the compound is not going to be let off so easily. And I fail to see your connection to moral theology.
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The burdan of proof and just cause is on the State of Texas, not me. But you have given me something to think about. People who live in communes are not protected by the Bill of Rights or the US Constitution. They don’t share the same God given rights that you and I have. I’ll give this serious consideration if I ever join a religious community, Catholic or otherwise.
 
Tietjen said:
Wow, are you serious?! First of all this was a cult, not simply a town called Mayberry, USA. They lived in a compound as opposed to a neighborhood. Several children under the age of 16 have already been identified as being either pregnant or as having already given birth. You can attempt to rationalize this if you wish but you only make yourself look foolish. Divorce and remarriage is wrong yes, but lets be honest, are we to simply turn away when we find children being sexually abused because there are adults out there that are on their 2nd or 3rd marriage? Pleassssse! I am sure that most of the children currently in custody are not being used in this way (thank God law enforcement stepped in when they did) however, there is little doubt that many were and if we have to inconvenience these “families” while things get sorted out… to bad!!!
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I agree with the too bad part. I’m not joining any religious community as long as this is the way our government wants to deal with them.
 
Christy_Beth said:
You’re being a bit cynical here, dude. If I understand the situation correctly, the children were taken away until the state finds out who’s who. And what child goes with what family. No records were kept on that. And having your daughter married off at a young age, and her not having a say in the matter, is a real offense. What would you do if you and your child were in that position? Would you just let it happen? Or would you want to do something about it? Even if it meant that the state were to step in?
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The State doesn’t have need to know who is who. The State belongs to us. We are not the property of the State.

Perhaps God is slowly taking away our freedom. Maybe we don’t deserve it.
 
Steve40 said:
Some of the media is focusing in on how polygomy hurts children. Well I say divorce and re-mariage is worse for children. How many reporters have multiple kids with multiple wives. They no longer live with some of their children. Divorce and re-marriage is worse.
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Well, I never looked at it that way.

But for the life of me, I can’t understand why these women go for this polygomy thing.
 
The state of Texas entered the compound after receiving a phone call which required follow up. Yes, it looks like that phone call was bogus, but the state of Texas did not know that at the time, they were acting on “good faith”.

Child protective services works differently from standard lawful practices. If a call is made, making accusations of abuse or neglect, child protective services must follow up. That visit to the home by child protective services is to personally see if the charges stated during the phone call are real. You have the right to prevent them from entering your home, but that will be interpreted as reason for concern.

Have you even known someone who is going thru a nasty divorce? Sometimes bitter ex-'s will call the state just to harass the other ex-. The state knows this, but they must investigate every call.

Think about the rage we feel when we hear on the news that a child was abused or killed and child protective services did not protect that child. These children in the FLDS are CHILDREN and we have a moral and legal obligation to protect them.

Child protective services does not care about your religion. They care that the children are living in reasonable conditions, are eating regularly and are not being abused. Clearly, the trip into the compound provided enough evidence of abuse that the children, all the children, needed to be removed from their home. When one child is being abused (in this case pregnant and underage) the state does not take one abused child and leave others in the home, they must protect all the children.

If I am abusing my child, please protect my child from me,

I agree that this is a terrible time for the children and their parents. But the parents can fix most of this right away, just provide the information on the biological parents of these children. Legally the biological parents must be identified when dealing with child protective services. The biological parent have the right to present their side/information and fight for their children. Why lie about names and ages? I believe that the parents and leaders of this group are making a political and legal stand, and it is at the expense of their own children.

Why have these parents been uncooperative?

I would jump thru any hoops and walk over broken glass to protect my child, to get my child back, wouldn’t you?
 
mark_a said:
Well, I never looked at it that way.

But for the life of me, I can’t understand why these women go for this polygomy thing.
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We are all the Bride of Christ and marriage is an image of this. However, I do not agree with Polygomy. It only caused problems for both King David and Abraham. I don’t think I fully understand the Church’s position on Polygomy but I accept it and agree with it.
 
12Mary12 said:
The state of Texas entered the compound after receiving a phone call which required follow up. Yes, it looks like that phone call was bogus, but the state of Texas did not know that at the time, they were acting on “good faith”.

Child protective services works differently from standard lawful practices. If a call is made, making accusations of abuse or neglect, child protective services must follow up. That visit to the home by child protective services is to personally see if the charges stated during the phone call are real. You have the right to prevent them from entering your home, but that will be interpreted as reason for concern.

Have you even known someone who is going thru a nasty divorce? Sometimes bitter ex-'s will call the state just to harass the other ex-. The state knows this, but they must investigate every call.

Think about the rage we feel when we hear on the news that a child was abused or killed and child protective services did not protect that child. These children in the FLDS are CHILDREN and we have a moral and legal obligation to protect them.

Child protective services does not care about your religion. They care that the children are living in reasonable conditions, are eating regularly and are not being abused. Clearly, the trip into the compound provided enough evidence of abuse that the children, all the children, needed to be removed from their home. When one child is being abused (in this case pregnant and underage) the state does not take one abused child and leave others in the home, they must protect all the children.

If I am abusing my child, please protect my child from me,

I agree that this is a terrible time for the children and their parents. But the parents can fix most of this right away, just provide the information on the biological parents of these children. Legally the biological parents must be identified when dealing with child protective services. The biological parent have the right to present their side/information and fight for their children. Why lie about names and ages? I believe that the parents and leaders of this group are making a political and legal stand, and it is at the expense of their own children.

Why have these parents been uncooperative?

I would jump thru any hoops and walk over broken glass to protect my child, to get my child back, wouldn’t you?
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Where is child protective services for other teen pregnancies? I don’t buy it. I see a big double standard here and it stinks. Get a court order and place the under age pregnant in custody. Do your DNA tests. I even agree with charging under age teen boys with statutory rape if they find out this is what happened. But that is not what we do. We give teens condoms instead. How can you handout condoms with one hand and hand cuffs with the other.

Single out the criminals and hand out hand cuffs to the old men as well as young boys. But anyone who unjustly takes children from the parents is not asking for cooperation they are asking for a gun in their face the next time around.
 
Below is from another post in the forum. If it is true that none of the pregnant girls were under 16, this judge needs to be removed and the State of Texas pay damages.

Some very good points raised in this op-ed:

Quote:
Scott Henson: Where’s the evidence of abuse?

Judge Barbara Walther, who is overseeing the YFZ Ranch case, yesterday declared: “The court has ruled the conditions those children were in were not safe for the children. I did not make the facts that got this case into the courts.”

Excuse me, Judge? You issued a sweeping, house-to-house search warrant based on a highly questionable anonymous call that turned out to be phony. You refused to allow individual hearings for children, grouping them together like cattle. You accepted the testimony of an expert on “cults” who only learned about FLDS from media accounts, rather than an academic who’d studied them professionally for 18 years.

You’ve ruled the existence of five girls between 16 and 19 who were pregnant or had children was evidence of systematic abuse, even though in Texas 16-year-olds can marry with parental consent. You’ve ruled young toddlers are in “immediate” danger because of their parents’ beliefs or what might happen 15 years from now, not because anyone abuses them.
From the evidence presented publicly, I do not believe that the children have been sexually abused or physically harmed. Allegations of forcible rape turned out to be bogus, and only five girls 16 to 19 years old were found pregnant or with children – probably about the same ratio you’d find if you rounded up all the kids in my neighborhood.
 
I have to disagree on this. It isn’t like parents in the community are giving their daughters to be married to a much older man who already has a wife (or more than one). Sure, parents sometimes put their children in unsafe places/situations. And in that sort of case, the children need to be removed. In this cult, the children, basically, weren’t given the right to choose. And THAT, to me, is the real problem.
 
Christy_Beth said:
I have to disagree on this. It isn’t like parents in the community are giving their daughters to be married to a much older man who already has a wife (or more than one). Sure, parents sometimes put their children in unsafe places/situations. And in that sort of case, the children need to be removed. In this cult, the children, basically, weren’t given the right to choose. And THAT, to me, is the real problem.
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The 16 year old teens didn’t leave did they? I don’t know of any evidence that says they were being held against thier own will or forced to have sex. Even if this is true it should be handled by individual case. Why should they take my kids away if my neighbor leagally allows their 16 year old to marry an older man or even if the guy next door forces the 16 year old to have sex with an older married man.

But, if they were committing adultry that is different. Let’s try them on adultry and see how far that goes.

I don’t think your children are getting a choice of religion and the State should move in and take them away. How would you like that. You wouldn’t and I’d support your right to buy a gun and protect your kids.
 
Some excellent points made so far.

To consider:

Usually these young girls are not the first, legal, wife of the men, therefore the parents are not giving permission for their underage daughter to get married, they are giving their daughter permission to have sex with, get pregnant by, a man, often much older than themselves. That is cooperating with child abuse.

In child abuse cases, much of the information/evidence is kept private for the privacy of the children. After all, how would you feel if it was splashed all over the news that you, as a child, had been beater or raped.

One last point. There used to be a term “jail bait”. It meant that any man over the age of 18 would go to jail for having relations with an underage girl (underage wherever I have lived was 18). If a man broke that rule, he would be subject to whatever punishment the law had, AFTER the girl’s Father and brothers had their own opportunity to “take care of” the situation. It meant a beating from the family members and becoming ostracized from the community. Of course I am not advocating violence; I AM advocating the return to standards, a line drawn in the sand that means noone can go past this point, no exceptions, no excuses. That includes the FLDS or other groups - the girls should be at least 18 before marriage/intimacy.
 
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