Polygyny

[deb1]

Of course! We discussed marriage first. We were both looking for someone to marry and that’s the only reason we started talking in the first place is that we were looking to get married.

And we agreed on much, especially our outlook on the world with regard to Islam, and our understanding of Islam and so on, and on even basic details like child discipline.

Muslims do not date, do not interact with the opposite sex outside of family members hardly at all–there isn’t social activity between men and women and a man and woman are not supposed to be alone, ever, unless they are related. They come together to find a spouse and then get married.

I know some Christians are starting to practice courtship. From what I understand they don’t date until they are ready to look for a spouse. Is their view similar to your own?

My husband’s cousin is a Hasidic Jew. His marriage was arranged many years ago and thus far they both seem happy. I should point out that my husband’s cousin was an adult and sought out an arranged marriage on his own. This wasn’t something that his parents did for him. He and his wife both wanted something different then current American dating practices offer.

 

[deb1]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Yes, this is a very nice thread.

 

[deb1]

You discussed marriage before you were in love with each other?

Sister Amy, does physical attraction play a part in who is chosen for a husband or is the choice completely logical?

What are the divorce rates of American Muslims? I ask because divorce has become so prevalent in our society.

 

[AndyF]

Can a Catholic man marry more than one woman (at the same time) or is that a sin? Why?

No.
At one time it wasn’t a sin. The conclusion from the Solomon story is that for the sake of love of a mortal, a tacit approval of one of his sins, and it should never be forgotten, of the mortal ‘end severing’ variety, was accepted as a class of permitted behavior.

[Paradoxically, Eve was also innocent and favored prior to her sin, just as in Solomon’s case. But has we know there was no looking aside in her case. So we wonder if the need to stigmatize man played in as a factor.]

1/ So we can infer that sin can metamorph to a good activity.
2/ Something can be sinful now, but not later and vice versa.

Since only good can emanate from God, one needs to explain the official acceptance of evil by Him. By this I mean our sins are never tacitly approved, but this one was(so was divorce), that is the difference. This makes the sin only a preference by man that is not welcomed but accepted by Him, and of course there is no such category. Either our acts offend God calling for justice, or they please God rewarding life; there is no accepted grey zones. Grey zones have been covered in the direction, 'One cannot serve two masters.’

As an aside and related, we need to study the consequences of the official acceptance of evil. For instance, a King who has 50 wives, 200 children and never could ever hope to have an unsatiated libido from countless nights of bed hopping, and, isn’t favored by God, would usually find himself in a conflict of interest if he were to give advice and portray himself has the epitomy of sexual virtue and restraint. This effect being sin compounding as we would classify it, and in a religious context as he intended, heretical in nature. Instead he becomes the official Dr. Phil of Antiquity; and since he has God’s backing, man needs to sit back tongue in cheek and swallow this advice whole.

Not only does he need to digest the advice, but do so on an upset stomach, the result of the revulsion against a defence mechanism that was built in by the Creator himself, and tells our conscience that an exception is being made to accommodate a life desired, that if it were any of the rest of us, surely be food for the discernment process, any error having the potential to exinction. So the claxton of our conscience will wail uselessly, waiting for the creator to reset it.

You figure. (Not that I’ve got my sites on Mormonism of course, one is enuff! ).

AndyF

.

 

[Sister_Amy]

What about work? Men and women do not interact with each other at work?

Well of course at work. They can collaborate together, but they wouldn’t do so in private–as just one man and one woman–and keep it very “professional.” I am coordinating a course at the mosque and we had a team of three people, two women and one man, but the other woman was out of town for one meeting so it was just myself and the man. But we would sit at opposite ends of the table, left the door open, etc.

What I was saying is that there isn’t social interaction. I.e., if there is a party a lot of times the women will go to one place and the men to another.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I know some Christians are starting to practice courtship. From what I understand they don’t date until they are ready to look for a spouse. Is their view similar to your own?

I went to a church a few times where courtship was practiced, and some of my sorority sisters in college favored this as well. I have a friend who is Mormon who went this route too. From what I remember, it starts with group and not individual activities, and the purpose is solely to find a husband/wife. So the person will begin to “date” someone, not for the sake of dating but to see if they want to marry, and they just get to know each other. Then they decide to move up to “courting” prior to an engagement, then engagement and marriage, or they just leave it.

Muslims generally don’t date at all. There are other ways of looking for a spouse, so when a person is ready they just start looking, and the process begins by the two (and possibly family) just getting to know each other, seeing if their views on religion and marriage, etc, agree, if they find each other attractive or anything else that might be important.

My husband’s cousin is a Hasidic Jew. His marriage was arranged many years ago and thus far they both seem happy. I should point out that my husband’s cousin was an adult and sought out an arranged marriage on his own. This wasn’t something that his parents did for him. He and his wife both wanted something different then current American dating practices offer.

For me, my parents couldn’t play a role in finding a husband for me, so I essentially “arranged” it myself–that I looked for suitors on my own, had them investigated by a man I have appointed as a sort of guardian for this purpose.

The idea of “dating” doesn’t work for a lot of people I think–it seems more like just hooking up, having a “partner” without the obligations of a spouse. And do you just randomly find these people? In my experience, I’ve found that most religious people tend to look inside their church and try to avoid a sinful route to marriage. For Muslims (and honestly, probably for Hasidic Jews as well, I’d imagine) there is more strictness about preventing sex before marriage–and not just sex but kissing, hugging, even holding hands!–for the protection of the people. Everything waits until after the marriage.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy, does physical attraction play a part in who is chosen for a husband or is the choice completely logical?

Yes, physical attraction is part of it. A woman can refuse a man for any reason she wants–including just not being attracted to him. This is important, because part of a marriage is physical interaction. A man is also allowed to see a woman he is planning to marry before the marriage. There’s a difference of opinion, but I think most agree he can see what her father sees of her, basically that she’s covered between shoulders and knees, but he can see her without the hijab (headscarf).

What are the divorce rates of American Muslims? I ask because divorce has become so prevalent in our society.

I think based on some data I read a few years ago, the divorce rate for American Muslims is lower than the rest of the population, but it is increasing–as is the general divorce rate.

 

[ChooseLove]

In Islam, isn’t a requirement of polygamy that the man be able to support all his wives? I ask because I know in some cults in Utah, there are families practicing polygamy and I’ve heard that many of them live off welfare.

same thing in ontario! he can have 4 wives and get welfare for ALL of them! many are moving here for this very reason.

 

[BeeSweet]

Well of course at work. They can collaborate together, but they wouldn’t do so in private–as just one man and one woman–and keep it very “professional.” I am coordinating a course at the mosque and we had a team of three people, two women and one man, but the other woman was out of town for one meeting so it was just myself and the man. But we would sit at opposite ends of the table, left the door open, etc.

What I was saying is that there isn’t social interaction. I.e., if there is a party a lot of times the women will go to one place and the men to another.

I asked about work because many people find their spouse at work. So let’s say two single Muslims meet at work and fancy each other, while at the same time working on finding a mate. Do they then approach an intermediary to assist them in some sort of a courtship arrangement, or can they simply say, “hey, you wanna grab a cup of coffee after work?”

Muslims generally don’t date at all. There are other ways of looking for a spouse, so when a person is ready they just start looking, and the process begins by the two (and possibly family) just getting to know each other, seeing if their views on religion and marriage, etc, agree, if they find each other attractive or anything else that might be important.

For me, my parents couldn’t play a role in finding a husband for me, so I essentially “arranged” it myself–that I looked for suitors on my own, had them investigated by a man I have appointed as a sort of guardian for this purpose.

When and how does romantic love come into the picture? How would you describe romantic love in the Islamic tradition?

The idea of “dating” doesn’t work for a lot of people I think–it seems more like just hooking up, having a “partner” without the obligations of a spouse. And do you just randomly find these people? In my experience, I’ve found that most religious people tend to look inside their church and try to avoid a sinful route to marriage. For Muslims (and honestly, probably for Hasidic Jews as well, I’d imagine) there is more strictness about preventing sex before marriage–and not just sex but kissing, hugging, even holding hands!–for the protection of the people. Everything waits until after the marriage.

I’m interested in you saying “more strictness about preventing sex before marriage,” A word like “preventing” sounds coercive.

A man is also allowed to see a woman he is planning to marry before the marriage. There’s a difference of opinion, but I think most agree he can see what her father sees of her, basically that she’s covered between shoulders and knees, but he can see her without the hijab (headscarf).

What would be the emotion surrounding this sort of situation? For me to imagine such a thing, it would feel quite embarrassing. It reminds me of a story my sister in law told me of an audition she had to be a stripper, she was asked to take off all her clothes and stand in front of the club manager so he could decide if she was attractive enough to strip in his club. I wanted to ask her, “did he look at your teeth too?” actually, I think I did ask her that.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I asked about work because many people find their spouse at work. So let’s say two single Muslims meet at work and fancy each other, while at the same time working on finding a mate. Do they then approach an intermediary to assist them in some sort of a courtship arrangement, or can they simply say, “hey, you wanna grab a cup of coffee after work?”

I think the former would be more appropriate. There are a lot of Muslims who have grown up in the same community who, when they grow older, want to marry. Usually the man will go to the girl’s father. Coffee after work might not be appropriate, but some Muslims do that in order to meet with a prospective spouse and to learn more about them (usually a list of interview questions is involved–my roommate has done that before.)

When and how does romantic love come into the picture? How would you describe romantic love in the Islamic tradition?

Umm… every couple is different. Many people fall “in love” (I dunno, “puppy love” maybe?) with someone they’ve known because they see the person’s manners and personality, and they want to marry that person. Some people marry for more practical reasons and then fall in love later. I fell in love with my fiance after I had known him for a few months and we were talking about marriage, but my acceptance of his proposal was based on even more than love. (I could go on for hours about how much I love him though. )

I’m interested in you saying “more strictness about preventing sex before marriage,” A word like “preventing” sounds coercive.

Pre-marital sex is a big no-no in almost all religions. In Islam, too. But instead of just making it a sin, Islam provides a way for people to keep away from it. Part of that is covering, part of it is limits on interaction between men and women. A man and woman aren’t supposed to be alone together unless they’re related or married. And if they are they’ll act modestly and not flirtatiously. It’s all a way to avoid pre-marital and extra-marital relations.

What would be the emotion surrounding this sort of situation? For me to imagine such a thing, it would feel quite embarrassing. It reminds me of a story my sister in law told me of an audition she had to be a stripper, she was asked to take off all her clothes and stand in front of the club manager so he could decide if she was attractive enough to strip in his club. I wanted to ask her, “did he look at your teeth too?” actually, I think I did ask her that.

To be honest I don’t know of any scholars with the opinion that the woman would entirely uncover. Usually it just means that she takes off her scarf so he can see her hair, and maybe her coat so he could see the outline of her figure.

On the other hand, many (most?) American women don’t have a problem with wearing fitted jeans and shirts, or something even more revealing–swimsuits, shorts, etc.

I wasn’t really that embarassed to take off my scarf but to be honest I haven’t even shown him all my hair–kept it pinned up in the back. I thought it was kind of fun, and not embarassing at all. If a woman is embarassed to do it then maybe she shouldn’t have to, and the man should accept that he won’t see her until he marries her. But I would feel nervous about marrying someone I had never even seen.

 

[BeeSweet]

I just noticed that you chose to post this thread in the Social Justice forum. Would I be correct in assuming you believe laws against polygamy are socially unjust, and in effect an interference in how you would fully practice your faith as a Muslim?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I just noticed that you chose to post this thread in the Social Justice forum. Would I be correct in assuming you believe laws against polygamy are socially unjust, and in effect an interference in how you would fully practice your faith as a Muslim?

Well I only started the thread to learn more about the Catholic perspective. Laws against polygamy are interesting… when there are no laws against adultery or mistresses. Suppose I were in a polygamous marriage religiously, but of course I couldn’t get a license for that marriage so I couldn’t file taxes with my husband or we couldn’t claim each other for health insurance or anything like that. It’s a nuisance, then, the anti-polygamy laws.

But what’s the point of a law against polygamy if you can allow a man to keep a mistress? A second wife need only gave the legal status of a mistress or girlfriend despite for all other intents and purposes actually being a wife.

 

[BeeSweet]

Well I only started the thread to learn more about the Catholic perspective. Laws against polygamy are interesting… when there are no laws against adultery or mistresses. Suppose I were in a polygamous marriage religiously, but of course I couldn’t get a license for that marriage so I couldn’t file taxes with my husband or we couldn’t claim each other for health insurance or anything like that. It’s a nuisance, then, the anti-polygamy laws.

But what’s the point of a law against polygamy if you can allow a man to keep a mistress? A second wife need only gave the legal status of a mistress or girlfriend despite for all other intents and purposes actually being a wife.

There used to be laws against adultery, which carried prison time and fines as the penalties. The penalty varied from state to state. Prior to the no-fault divorce, adultery was grounds for divorce, and the faithful spouse would be due some form of compensation in the divorce settlement. It’s possible some states may still have some of these laws on the books, but they’re probably not enforced anywhere anymore. I believe some states still have laws against sodomy. Texas did until very recently I think, within the last ten years.

Filing taxes with two wives?? :whacky: man alive, isn’t it complicated enough as it is???!!?:bigyikes:

Honestly, if we legalize same sex marriage, polygamy probably won’t be far behind in my opinion.

 

[Sister_Amy]

There used to be laws against adultery, which carried prison time and fines as the penalties. The penalty varied from state to state. Prior to the no-fault divorce, adultery was grounds for divorce, and the faithful spouse would be due some form of compensation in the divorce settlement. It’s possible some states may still have some of these laws on the books, but they’re probably not enforced anywhere anymore. I believe some states still have laws against sodomy. Texas did until very recently I think, within the last ten years.

Filing taxes with two wives?? :whacky: man alive, isn’t it complicated enough as it is???!!?:bigyikes:

Honestly, if we legalize same sex marriage, polygamy probably won’t be far behind in my opinion.

If we’d just abolish the income tax there’d be no problem!

You’re right, adultery is grounds for a divorce. But suppose there is Muslim guy with two wives and someone accuses him of bigamy. If only one is his “legal” wife and the other is only married through a religious and not civil contract–technically there is no crime. But dare he say he wants to support them both, rather than just have a mistress on the side, he has to go to jail?

 

[BeeSweet]

If we’d just abolish the income tax there’d be no problem!

You’re right, adultery is grounds for a divorce. But suppose there is Muslim guy with two wives and someone accuses him of bigamy. If only one is his “legal” wife and the other is only married through a religious and not civil contract–technically there is no crime. But dare he say he wants to support them both, rather than just have a mistress on the side, he has to go to jail?

I don’t believe in the state sanctioning polygamous relationships, but if people want to live that way, c’est la vie… People do disordered things all the time.

If we were like cats, where a female cat can carry the offspring of several different male cats at the same time, then I’d see a case for polygamy, because there’d be equal representation between the sexes (men and women both being equally able to procreate with multiple partners within the same gestation period). But we’re not like cats, we have a one on one type of system as determined by the natural order.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… In Islam, marriage is a kind of contract–both sides having a responsibility to fulfill. Both spouses have rights over the other…

Hi Sister Amy,

In Catholicism, marriage is a sacrament. It is a witness to the Groom Jesus and His Bride, The Church. (I should point out that alot of protestants don’t agree with us on this matter.) This would be very deep for you - even I don’t understand it properly. But I thought I’d I throw this spanner in the works to perhaps give you more insight as to why Catholics consider marriage to be so sacred. One church. One bride.

 

[Sister_Amy]

What is the role of “God the Father” and the “Holy Spirit” in the marriage of Jesus to the Church?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

What is the role of “God the Father” and the “Holy Spirit” in the marriage of Jesus to the Church?

Huh? Sister Amy, do you think it’s timely to talk about the Trinity now?

The divinity of God is infinite and can not be separated. What Jesus has, so too does The Father and The Holy Spirit. What Jesus is, so too is the Father and The Holy Spirit.

If you want to know why Jesus became man, and why the Holy Spirit is the giver of life, then you may need to do some research on Appropriation. I’m still learning it and I can’t give you lesson on it now.

 

[Holly3278]

Polygamy is a sin, no matter who practices it. This is based on the church’s teaching authority, backed up by scripture.

Genesis 2:24 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh”.

Matthew 19:4-6 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

Ephesians 5:31
“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[deb1]

What is the role of “God the Father” and the “Holy Spirit” in the marriage of Jesus to the Church?

Jesus refers to himself as groom and the Church as his bride in the New Testament. In the Old Testament there are references to Israel being the bride of God. When the Israelites engaged in idoltary, God sometimes refers to this as adultery.

Our marriages on earth represent Jesus’ union with the Church. I am a convert though and my knowledge of this is not as good as it should be.

One beautiful aspect of this outlook is that the bible says that a man should love his wife as Jesus loved the Church. Jesus gave his life for the Church so a husband should be prepared if necessary to give his life for his wife(didn’t mean to rhyme).