polytheism is a alive and well in mormonism

[twopekinguys]

Here is a further portion of the quote by Elder Pace (a Seventy–not an apostle, by the way, though it could have well been said by an apostle):

Jesus was a unique Person in the history of this world, in case you hadn’t noticed. He was Perfect, in case that had not crossed your mind. This means He didn’t need marriage to be “complete”, but it does not mean that anyone else in the world will have those qualities of being “complete” or being “perfect” in and of themselves. Get it?

LOL, I get it, believe, me. However I’m suprised that you don’t.

Catholics, and the rest of Christianity have known Jesus was a unique person, and was perfect for thousands of years. I’m glad you’re catching up (sort of)

“I believe the Father’s statement ‘It is not good that the man should be alone’ (Genesis 2:18) had a much more profound meaning than the obvious biological implications,” he said. “It also went further than providing Adam with company. Adam’s ability to obtain the purification necessary to get back into the presence of God was dependent upon his continuous association with Eve.”

Kind of a stretch, based on only one verse in the Bible don’t ya think? Remember, Adam could have said no. That would have blown that whole idea right out of the water now wouldn’t it?

"In order for men and women to obtain the highest degree of celestial glory, there is need to be married, Elder Pace said.

Well that just settles the whole thing now doesn’t it?

Again, the mormon view of heaven is extremely distorted. Something that Christianity has known since the mid 1800s.

QUOTE=ParkerD;6433424]“There is a limit to our spiritual development as long as we are s[ingle. There is a spiritual development which can only be obtained when a man and a woman join their incomplete selves into a complete couple,” he said. “Just as conception requires the physical union of male and female, perfection requires the union of the very souls of male and female.”
[/QUOTE]

Funny, of all things for God to limit, why would it be spiritual develpment? I notice there isn’t any scriptural reference for this.

"Although single men and women can accomplish great things on their own, they are incomplete until united intellectually, emotionally, physically and most important, spiritually, he said.

Aww, how nice of him to recognize the single people can do great things. It kind of sounds like saying black people can do good but they can’t have the priesthood. This is nothing more than a move to the back of the bus statement.

"“The world we live in has gone awry with its focus on the physical part of the male and female relationship. If there is too much focus on the physical, the vital areas of intellectual, emotional and spiritual union are not being placed in an environment where they can flourish and grow.”

He is partially correct. The world we live in has gone awry on the physical part of relationships.

 

[Sunstone]

Today, Mormons are *homoiousion, tritheistic henotheists *although only Mormon academics would use such terminology.

As a Mormon who is seriously considering a jump to Catholicism, I suggest everyone read this document:

home.earthlink.net/~vanehale/resourcelibrary/id18.html

It accurately describes the Mormon doctrine of deity in language that you should be able to understand.

 

[lax16]

We don’t stress. We leave it to the critics to get all tangled up. WE know what we are talking about.

Once again, I get the feeling that Mormonism is only for a select few.

Why is it that a religion that claims to be Christian is only for “(those who) know what we are talking about.”

 

[Jay53]

Personally, I like the part where he says that if you’re single, you’re incomplete. Does that mean Jesus was incomplete?

“Although single men and women can accomplish great things on their own, they are incomplete until united intellectually, emotionally, physically and most important, spiritually, he said”

That was the quote that hit me right off the bat.

My reaction was and “that is the biggest load of malarkey”.

So, apparently developmentally delayed/mentally retarded people who don’t get married or people who just never found someone special to share a marriage with don’t rate in God’s eyes.

Mother Theresa, St. Therese, St. Padre Pio etc are all apparently “incomplete”.

 

[dianaiad]

Did the father god create the wife? I agree with you, that sounds like polytheism, but I’m just curious I mean, the Hindus have 1000s of gods and claim to be monotheistic it’s hard to know where to slice

If you are going to go by strict dictionary definitions, then we are henotheists, in that we acknowledge the possibility of other gods (though we have no idea who they might be…) but we worship only one.

Of course, if you use the strictest definition of polytheism, then trinitarian Christians are polytheists. Certainly they are when viewed from strict monotheistic faiths like Judaism and Islam!

As for Hindus…I wasn’t aware that they claimed to be monotheistic.

the whole thing is all about definitions, and whose one uses.

 

[dianaiad]

Once again, I get the feeling that Mormonism is only for a select few.

Why is it that a religion that claims to be Christian is only for “(those who) know what we are talking about.”

The problem, lax, is that our beliefs aren’t complicated. They are simple—UNTIL the critics start tangling themselves (and others) up in them.

 

[twopekinguys]

That was the quote that hit me right off the bat.

My reaction was and “that is the biggest load of malarkey”.

So, apparently developmentally delayed/mentally retarded people who don’t get married or people who just never found someone special to share a marriage with don’t rate in God’s eyes.

Mother Theresa, St. Therese, St. Padre Pio etc are all apparently “incomplete”.

You have to wonder if anyone proof reads these speeches before they’re given.

 

[SteveVH]

Of course, if you use the strictest definition of polytheism, then trinitarian Christians are polytheists. Certainly they are when viewed from strict monotheistic faiths like Judaism and Islam!

Not if they actually understand Trinitarian theology.

 

[dianaiad]

Not if they actually understand Trinitarian theology.

Steve, I’ve been working at it for over forty years. I don’t think anybody does.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The Trinity is One God. Failure to understand this does not make Trinitarian belief polytheistic.

LDS polytheism is not a case of misunderstanding what LDS believe. There is not a belief of 4 persons in one god. It is not a Hindu belief of several incarnations or expressions for the attributes of one god in many gods. It is a belief of at least four gods with teachings of other, undefined gods.

Since LDS cannot address this belief and defend it in light of scripture telling us there is but One God. They choose to deflect to their non-acceptance of the One True God, the Holy Trinity.

Isaiah 46:9
I am God, there is no other; I am God, there is none like me.

 

[imasinner]

If you are going to go by strict dictionary definitions, then we are henotheists, in that we acknowledge the possibility of other gods (though we have no idea who they might be…) but we worship only one.

Of course, if you use the strictest definition of polytheism, then trinitarian Christians are polytheists. Certainly they are when viewed from strict monotheistic faiths like Judaism and Islam!

As for Hindus…I wasn’t aware that they claimed to be monotheistic.

the whole thing is all about definitions, and whose one uses.

Hi dianaiad. If you worship only one God does this follow then that you only worship God the Father? Not Jesus and not the Holy Spirit even though they be Gods too?

 

[tundramom]

I’ll let Dianiad speak for herself, but I couldn’t resist this quote:

Concerning the concept of a personal relationship with Christ, the late LDS Apostle, Bruce McConkie made the following infamous speech (note that McConkie even goes as far as denying the pattern of praying through the Son):

"Some (“holier-than- thou” students) begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed. In this conception a current and unwise book, which advocates gaining a special relationship with Jesus, contains this sentence - quote: “Because the Saviour is our mediator, our prayers go through Christ to the Father, and the Father answers our prayers through his son. " Unquote. This is plain sectarian nonsense. Our prayers are addressed to the Father, and to him only. They do not go through Christ…You have never heard the First Presidency or the Twelve…advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so called special and personal relationship with Christ…never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate and intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Saviour…I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer’s system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church.” (Bruce McConkie, Speech at BYU on March 2 1982).
McConkie also stated:

“We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well about what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense - the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to Him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God first, the Creator.” (Ibid.).

from this site:

Steph

 

[TheQuestioner]

Hi dianaiad. If you worship only one God does this follow then that you only worship God the Father? Not Jesus and not the Holy Spirit even though they be Gods too?

I actually never thought about this. If LDS worship all three then they effectively become polytheists.

 

[imasinner]

Hi Steph. I know very little about the Mormon religion. Could that be one person’s (apostle’s) opinion and not an LSD teaching. I read on another site that prayers should go to God the Father through Jesus but I didnt understand that Jesus was not to be worshiped by mormons so why go throug Jesus?

The only dealings Ive had with Mormons are their missionaries and not once did I realise that they believe in many gods but worship only one. I thought that they worshiped at least 3 gods, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as seperate Gods?

 

[imasinner]

I actually never thought about this. If LDS worship all three then they effectively become polytheists.

Dont we Catholics worship all Three but as One God?

 

[tundramom]

Hi Steph. I know very little about the Mormon religion. Could that be one person’s (apostle’s) opinion and not an LSD teaching. I read on another site that prayers should go to God the Father through Jesus but I didnt understand that Jesus was not to be worshiped by mormons so why go throug Jesus?

The only dealings Ive had with Mormons are their missionaries and not once did I realise that they believe in many gods but worship only one. I thought that they worshiped at least 3 gods, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as seperate Gods?

I’m an ex-Mormon so what I know about Mormonism was ingrained into me. A Mormon would probably agree with your idea that this was only an “opinion” of Bruce R. McConkie. It was given at a fireside talk at BYU. I don’t remember the fireside and I don’t think I was there, although I lived in Utah Valley near BYU at the time. I do remember that on Sunday mornings there was a broadcast of Oral Roberts on at the time. I think perhaps this talk was a response to the relatively new idea (at least in Utah) about worship. I know that my BIL was a huge fan of televangelists at the time and he bought a lot of it hook, line, and sinker and tried to meld it with his Mormonism. Of course, I’m just speculating here…

Steph

 

[sablouwho]

I’m an ex-Mormon so what I know about Mormonism was ingrained into me.

Steph

Hi Steph,

I started a thread a few weeks ago in which I had asked former LDS to share why they left the faith. Would you be willing to share your story? If so, here is a link to the thread

 

[dianaiad]

Hi dianaiad. If you worship only one God does this follow then that you only worship God the Father? Not Jesus and not the Holy Spirit even though they be Gods too?

We believe that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are separate Beings Who share the quality ‘God.’ That is, they form the three Members of the Godhead; they are united in purpose, but ‘substance’ is a little stronger a word than we would use to describe that thing they share…“Godhood.”

We pray to God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ, and recieve guidance and confirmation of truth through the Holy Ghost. They are, however, all members of the Godhead.

 

[dianaiad]

Hi Steph. I know very little about the Mormon religion. Could that be one person’s (apostle’s) opinion and not an LSD teaching. I read on another site that prayers should go to God the Father through Jesus but I didnt understand that Jesus was not to be worshiped by mormons so why go throug Jesus?

The only dealings Ive had with Mormons are their missionaries and not once did I realise that they believe in many gods but worship only one. I thought that they worshiped at least 3 gods, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as seperate Gods?

We do not pray to Jesus; all credit and glory go to His Father…but that doesn’t mean that we do not understand the role Jesus holds: no man cometh unto the Father but by him. He ‘bought us with a price…" We do not hold Jesus "lesser’ in any way, but we do not pray to Him, but THROUGH Him.

 

[imasinner]

We believe that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are separate Beings Who share the quality ‘God.’ That is, they form the three Members of the Godhead; they are united in purpose, but ‘substance’ is a little stronger a word than we would use to describe that thing they share…“Godhood.”

We pray to God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ, and recieve guidance and confirmation of truth through the Holy Ghost. They are, however, all members of the Godhead.

Please excuse my ignorance. So Three seperate Persons comprise the Godhead one in purpose but not in substance yet only the Father is worshiped (given glory)…Have I got it right?.

We do not pray to Jesus; all credit and glory go to His Father…but that doesn’t mean that we do not understand the role Jesus holds: no man cometh unto the Father but by him. He ‘bought us with a price…" We do not hold Jesus "lesser’ in any way, but we do not pray to Him, but THROUGH Him.

If Jesus is no “lesser” (presumably this applies to the Holy Spirit too) in any way to the Father why is He (or the Holy Spirit) not worthy of worship? Why are they part of the Godhead? Surely the fact that they are not worshiped deems Jesus and the Holy Spirit as inferior to the Father? Because Jesus and the Holy Spirit are part of the Godhead does it follow that the Godhead is not worshiped? Who is the Father without Jesus and the Holy Spirit?..God?

One last question, if you dont mind. Where did the Holy Spirit come from? Created Being or a spirit child of the Father younger than Jesus (I understand Jesus is literally the firstborn or the Father…or am I confusing this with JW beliefs?) Cheers