polytheism is a alive and well in mormonism

[imasinner]

I’m an ex-Mormon so what I know about Mormonism was ingrained into me. A Mormon would probably agree with your idea that this was only an “opinion” of Bruce R. McConkie. It was given at a fireside talk at BYU. I don’t remember the fireside and I don’t think I was there, although I lived in Utah Valley near BYU at the time. I do remember that on Sunday mornings there was a broadcast of Oral Roberts on at the time. I think perhaps this talk was a response to the relatively new idea (at least in Utah) about worship. I know that my BIL was a huge fan of televangelists at the time and he bought a lot of it hook, line, and sinker and tried to meld it with his Mormonism. Of course, I’m just speculating here…

Steph

Welcome Home! Would love to read your story too.

 

[tundramom]

Hi Steph,

I started a thread a few weeks ago in which I had asked former LDS to share why they left the faith. Would you be willing to share your story? If so, here is a link to the thread

Sure I will. I don’t have time right now but I will get to it as soon as I can. Thanks for asking!

Steph

 

[ParkerD]

I’ll let Dianiad speak for herself, but I couldn’t resist this quote:

Quote:
Concerning the concept of a personal relationship with Christ, the late LDS Apostle, Bruce McConkie made the following infamous speech (note that McConkie even goes as far as denying the pattern of praying through the Son):

Steph,
Thanks. That is a fabulous quote. (I had never heard it or read it before, so I’m not sure how “infamous” that speech is.) But I enjoyed learning about it here, now.

Note that Bruce R McConkie was pointing out that those students who had been taught to seek a “special relationship” with the Savior, and to make really long prayers to do that, were not following the scriptures including the Bible. The Bible says to pray to Our Father in Heaven. Jesus would not have prayed by closing “in the name of Jesus”, so we are in a different position than He was in as He showed the example of the “Lord’s prayer”. LDS pray “in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.”

The Nephites who had the personal appearance of the Savior did pray to Him directly at a certain point. This illustrates that when anyone was or is in the personal presence of the Savior, it is appropriate to pray to Him if the Holy Ghost inspires such a prayer–but only in His personal presence. Otherwise, Christ always taught to give glory to the Father and to pray to the Father.

I feel worshipful of the Son in a sense of gratitude and awe, and can have thoughts such as “Lord, help me” (in which case I am really asking for help from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost since I am asking for both assistance from the Father and for help through the atonement (grace) and for inspiration from the Holy Ghost.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Dont we Catholics worship all Three but as One God?

We don’t worship them as One God, they are One God (one God in three persons), so we wouldn’t be polytheists. For them they are three separate gods.

 

[RebeccaJ]

ParkerD- It isn’t like you can whisper something to Jesus and it is kept a secret from the Father. GOD is bigger than yours, or McConkie’s, containment.

I’m sorry you think praying to Jesus is “secular nonsense”. You should wonder about a teaching whose sole purpose is to keep you from having a relationship with Jesus. I imagine if Jesus lived next door to you, you would never speak to Him because you think you can only talk to His Father.

strange.

 

[twopekinguys]

ParkerD- It isn’t like you can whisper something to Jesus and it is kept a secret from the Father. GOD is bigger than yours, or McConkie’s, containment.

I’m sorry you think praying to Jesus is “secular nonsense”. You should wonder about a teaching whose sole purpose is to keep you from having a relationship with Jesus. I imagine if Jesus lived next door to you, you would never speak to Him because you think you can only talk to His Father.

strange.

Why does this scripture come to mind?

John 14:6 (New International Version)

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Why does this scripture come to mind?

John 14:6 (New International Version)

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Yeah, I know it is Lent and all, but I have the Alleluia in my head.

“Speak Lord your servant is listening, you have the words of everlasting life.”

I feel sad for this fact that LDS do not speak to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[twopekinguys]

I feel sad for this fact that LDS do not speak to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 11:35 Jesus wept.

 

[RebeccaJ]

John 11:35 Jesus wept.

A beautiful scriptural reading.

 

[soren1]

We do not pray to Jesus; all credit and glory go to His Father…but that doesn’t mean that we do not understand the role Jesus holds: no man cometh unto the Father but by him. He ‘bought us with a price…" We do not hold Jesus "lesser’ in any way, but we do not pray to Him, but THROUGH Him.

Prayer to Jesus is found in Scripture as well as prayer through him. For instance, when Stephen dies seeing Jesus glorified by God (that’s what “right hand” really means here), he says, “Lord Jesus receive my Spirit.” (Acts 7:59) Further, John the Apostle prays to Jesus in the final verse of Revelation: “Even so, come Lord Jesus.” (Rev 22:20) This is to say nothing of the many examples of prayer directed to Jehovah in the Old Testament.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD- It isn’t like you can whisper something to Jesus and it is kept a secret from the Father. GOD is bigger than yours, or McConkie’s, containment.

I’m sorry you think praying to Jesus is “secular nonsense”. You should wonder about a teaching whose sole purpose is to keep you from having a relationship with Jesus. I imagine if Jesus lived next door to you, you would never speak to Him because you think you can only talk to His Father.

strange.

RebeccaJ,
You seem to have missed my point that if I am ever in the presence of the Savior, I can worship Him in His presence if I feel prompted by the Holy Spirit to do so. I would certainly feel worshipful and grateful and adoring, so it would be logical that I would feel the desire to express worship, just as the Nephites who saw Him did.

Elder McConkie was talking to BYU students (members of the LDS church), not to Catholics, so what you do in regards to praying is your business, but Elder McConkie was an apostle at the time so what he was teaching was more than his own business.

As an apostle, he had a responsibility to correct what he saw as a doctrinal error being taught and believed (not for Catholics, but for Mormons–got it?).

The doctrinal error was that if a person is going to think they need to develop a “special relationship” with the Savior that goes beyond what the Bible indicates should be their expectation, and thinks that special relationship is going to at some point mean they will be praying to the Savior while outside of His presence (or in His presence if they thought He was going to appear to them through some dramatic manifestation), then such a person is going to place themselves in a position of being easily deceived by a counterfeit experience. It also means they are going to place themselves in a position where they will be comparing themselves with others and thinking, in some way, “I am special because I have this special relationship I have developed through my faith and prayers and others should develop this special relationship also”. It means they will easily go down a path of beginning to teach doctrine that is incorrect about prayer to Heavenly Father (again, not to Catholics but to Mormons).

Elder McConkie was in a position where correcting that misunderstanding by some students (and even perhaps a faculty member) was a valid correction for him to make, and that was a valid place to make it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Polytheism is alive and well in the media, too: The Unholy Trinity of

The Mother (Oprah)
The Father (Obama)
The Unholy Spirit (MTV)

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ,
You seem to have missed my point that if I am ever in the presence of the Savior, I can worship Him in His presence if I feel prompted by the Holy Spirit to do so. I would certainly feel worshipful and grateful and adoring, so it would be logical that I would feel the desire to express worship, just as the Nephites who saw Him did.

Elder McConkie was talking to BYU students (members of the LDS church), not to Catholics, so what you do in regards to praying is your business, but Elder McConkie was an apostle at the time so what he was teaching was more than his own business.

As an apostle, he had a responsibility to correct what he saw as a doctrinal error being taught and believed (not for Catholics, but for Mormons–got it?).

The doctrinal error was that if a person is going to think they need to develop a “special relationship” with the Savior that goes beyond what the Bible indicates should be their expectation, and thinks that special relationship is going to at some point mean they will be praying to the Savior while outside of His presence (or in His presence if they thought He was going to appear to them through some dramatic manifestation), then such a person is going to place themselves in a position of being easily deceived by a counterfeit experience. It also means they are going to place themselves in a position where they will be comparing themselves with others and thinking, in some way, “I am special because I have this special relationship I have developed through my faith and prayers and others should develop this special relationship also”. It means they will easily go down a path of beginning to teach doctrine that is incorrect about prayer to Heavenly Father (again, not to Catholics but to Mormons).

Elder McConkie was in a position where correcting that misunderstanding by some students (and even perhaps a faculty member) was a valid correction for him to make, and that was a valid place to make it.

Yes Parker I realize McConkie is mormon and speaking to mormons. So what? He’s telling people to fear a relationship with Jesus.

You should wonder about that.

 

[ParkerD]

RebeccaJ,
A relationship with Jesus Christ is centered in understanding the atonement, which it appears based on your insistence on praying to Him, that you don’t understand. He always gave the glory to the Father, yet you are saying Mormons need to follow an aberration from that central characteristic of His teachings and example. I reject such a notion.

 

[Jay53]

RebeccaJ,
A relationship with Jesus Christ is centered in understanding the atonement, which it appears based on your insistence on praying to Him, that you don’t understand. He always gave the glory to the Father, yet you are saying Mormons need to follow an aberration from that central characteristic of His teachings and example. I reject such a notion.

This is where the difference in the understanding of God comes in. In praying to Jesus, we ARE praying and giving glory to the Father (and the Holy Spirit) since they are One.

I have had NUMEROUS prayers answered by Jesus throughout my life so I can attest to the fact that He is God and that He does answer our prayers. One of those prayers was through St. Therese so I can also attest to the helpfulness and intercession of saints.

And since I know you like scripture, () there are a couple of references in the Bible to people worshipping Jesus and no evidence of Him rebuking them for such worship.

John 9:38
Matthew 14:33

 

[ParkerD]

This is where the difference in the understanding of God comes in. In praying to Jesus, we ARE praying and giving glory to the Father (and the Holy Spirit) since they are One.

I have had NUMEROUS prayers answered by Jesus throughout my life so I can attest to the fact that He is God and that He does answer our prayers. One of those prayers was through St. Therese so I can also attest to the helpfulness and intercession of saints.

And since I know you like scripture, () there are a couple of references in the Bible to people worshipping Jesus and no evidence of Him rebuking them for such worship.

John 9:38
Matthew 14:33

Jay53,
As I have noted earlier, if a person is in the presence of Christ it would be or have been appropriate to worship Him, but outside of His physical presence I will accept His teaching in John 4:23, and worship the Father in spirit and in truth, while reverencing the Son and glorifying His name with reverence and gratitude for His infinite love and grace.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,
As I have noted earlier, if a person is in the presence of Christ it would be or have been appropriate to worship Him, but outside of His physical presence I will accept His teaching in John 4:23, and worship the Father in spirit and in truth, while reverencing the Son and glorifying His name with reverence and gratitude for His infinite love and grace.

That certainly is your prerogative. John 4:23 does not say to not worship Jesus at all. As I said, Jesus and the Father are One. So we are, in fact, worshipping the Father when we worship Jesus.

I also choose to believe Jesus when He tells us that He is God and that He is present in the Eucharist. So I will worship Him as One with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Stephen168]

Of course, if you use the strictest definition of polytheism, then trinitarian Christians are polytheists. Certainly they are when viewed from strict monotheistic faiths like Judaism and Islam!
SteveVH;6436570:

Not if they actually understand Trinitarian theology.

Steve, I’ve been working at it for over forty years. I don’t think anybody does.

I guess that settles it. If she can’t understand it, no one can. Claimed ignorance seems to be a common Mormon apologetics strategy.

 

[Stephen168]

I think it is important for Christians to know that your belief is polytheistic.

I knew they were polytheistic but the goddess thing is new to me.

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ,
A relationship with Jesus Christ is centered in understanding the atonement, which it appears based on your insistence on praying to Him, that you don’t understand. He always gave the glory to the Father, yet you are saying Mormons need to follow an aberration from that central characteristic of His teachings and example. I reject such a notion.

ParkerD, a relationship on Christ is based on the love of God for all creation. This includes you. All glory is given to the Father by the Son.

God does not deny Himself. You teach that He does. God will give you anything you ask. You are made to be afraid to even approach Him. He mediates on our behalf. You can pray to Him. His is your Salvation.