polytheism

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For those that do not believe in a religion or god, it seems easier to believe in many gods than to believe that no god exists.

For those that cannot fathom that one being or god made this vast amount of being, for those it would be simpler to believe that it took many gods to make the tiniest little beings to the vast areas of the universe that we not even observed.
 
For those that do not believe in a religion or god, it seems easier to believe in many gods than to believe that no god exists.

For those that cannot fathom that one being or god made this vast amount of being, for those it would be simpler to believe that it took many gods to make the tiniest little beings to the vast areas of the universe that we not even observed.
Not sure I follow you.

Up until now the polytheist that I’ve known were born into families that were polytheists (all Hindu). I don’t think it was a matter of a non-believer choosing something that was easier to believe, but of people sticking with the system into which they were born. Though I’ve never met a polytheists that I had known to previously not claim a religion.
 
For those that do not believe in a religion or god, it seems easier to believe in many gods than to believe that no god exists.

For those that cannot fathom that one being or god made this vast amount of being, for those it would be simpler to believe that it took many gods to make the tiniest little beings to the vast areas of the universe that we not even observed.
My perspective as an atheist: the only religion I am interested in is Catholicism. I am severely skeptical. I try to be Catholic and often fail to believe in God. So what is crucial for me in a religion is plausibility, and I perhaps entertain the idea of becoming Catholic because I find Catholicism to be the most plausible religion.

Now, one could certainly dispute whether Catholicism is the most plausible religion. (Many thinkers, for instance, take issue with the idea of a personal God.) I believe that it is. For instance, an example relevant to this discussion about polytheism is the Catholic argument that a God that created the world would have to be omnipotent and singular. For two gods to be discrete, their wills would have to be separate. They could not both be omnipotent and opposed. This would seem to complicate any act of creation.
 
I’m not sure I get you either, Jim.

Do you mean that it is easier for a sceptic to believe in some kind of dualism in the universe, since it obvious has much explanatory scope (especially regarding the problem of evil)?
 
Now, one could certainly dispute whether Catholicism is the most plausible religion. (Many thinkers, for instance, take issue with the idea of a personal God.) I believe that it is. For instance, an example relevant to this discussion about polytheism is the Catholic argument that a God that created the world would have to be omnipotent and singular. For two gods to be discrete, their wills would have to be separate. They could not both be omnipotent and opposed. This would seem to complicate any act of creation.
That’s a fair point, Poly Tropos (sorry, my Greek is a bit rusty, but is that “many places”?), but really polytheism does seem to have value in helping to explain the problem of evil. I say “seem” because ultimately it doesn’t: if there are many gods and no ultimate God from which morality is derived, there actually is no problem of evil, because morality is not a standardised good.
 
That’s a fair point, Poly Tropos (sorry, my Greek is a bit rusty, but is that “many places”?), but really polytheism does seem to have value in helping to explain the problem of evil. I say “seem” because ultimately it doesn’t: if there are many gods and no ultimate God from which morality is derived, there actually is no problem of evil, because morality is not a standardised good.
Many turns (or changes), as in Odysseus, man of many turns.

I do not really mean separate wills in the sense of good vs. evil because a lot of polytheistic religions don’t really deal with good vs. evil in the sense that Christianity does. But there are gods of opposing wills in many polytheistic religions (for instance, in Hindu, creators and destroyers, both being necessary but neither being strictly “good” or “evil”).
 
My perspective as an atheist: the only religion I am interested in is Catholicism. I am severely skeptical. I try to be Catholic and often fail to believe in God. So what is crucial for me in a religion is plausibility, and I perhaps entertain the idea of becoming Catholic because I find Catholicism to be the most plausible religion.

Now, one could certainly dispute whether Catholicism is the most plausible religion. (Many thinkers, for instance, take issue with the idea of a personal God.) I believe that it is. For instance, an example relevant to this discussion about polytheism is the Catholic argument that a God that created the world would have to be omnipotent and singular. For two gods to be discrete, their wills would have to be separate. They could not both be omnipotent and opposed. This would seem to complicate any act of creation.
Even Catholicism is fairly complicated, though. For one thing, you have a significant “other will” in the universe, which is the devil. Whereas the gnostics invoked two Gods to explain why existence is both so beautiful and so cruel, Catholics largely invoke the influence of the devil (it’s never really clear as to how metaphorical the devil is, but the consensus seems to be that the devil is something real). God is omnipotent, yet respects the free will of the devil, even though the devil is more powerful than human beings… From a non-Catholic perspective – and, perhaps, from a Catholic one – this is more complicated than simply positing God as the One. Though the devil is not itself a Creator, it was created by God, and has a “will” more powerful than that of human beings.

Also, you have the Trinity – One God in Three Persons. Would there be a difference, conceptually, between one God in Three Person and one God…in One Thousand Persons? Their ability to harmonize and reconcile with each other could be beyond human comprehension (as, indeed, the notion of one God in three Persons is).

Frankly, it could be very beautiful, 1,000 aspects of the Godhead – or 1,000,000 aspects of the Godhead – harmonizing like rays emanating from a single celestial body.

Granted, this would still be monotheism, however elusive – just as a Trinitarian Christianity is, from a non-Christian perspective, an elusive form of monotheism. I could imagine one God in a thousand manifestations (not just 3), which is essentially what some argue Hinduism is, precisely – that is, some argue that Hinduism is ultimately monotheistic (one Divine Being, Brahman, with countless manifestations).

There are other possible debates, of course – such as whether reincarnation is more “tidy” a concept than only living once (conceptually, I’m troubled by the seeming “untidiness” of a full life of 80 years, in comparison with a life that never made it past infancy, or one that ended in young adulthood); or whether karma (kind of like purgatory in “real time”) is more tidy a concept than an eternity in hell; but I think there’s plenty to discuss (of course) as regards the Christian conception of God, for starters.

For example, what help is it, semantically, to refer to God as a “He”? Why not “She”? Surely, we’re not speaking literally, but metaphorically. What is lost in a change of pronoun?.. And how do we conceptualize God as a person, without anthropomorphizing that God (as we’ve already been in danger of doing, as regards gender).
 
Many turns (or changes), as in Odysseus, man of many turns.

I do not really mean separate wills in the sense of good vs. evil because a lot of polytheistic religions don’t really deal with good vs. evil in the sense that Christianity does. But there are gods of opposing wills in many polytheistic religions (for instance, in Hindu, creators and destroyers, both being necessary but neither being strictly “good” or “evil”).
Gotcha.

Oh, I was thinking of topos, which I think is Greek for “place”.
 
I am the OP.

Let me try again: I believe in One God.

BELIEVE is really important. We, not even St. Thomas, cannot prove One God. The Creed says: I believe in One God.

Next, when science began to see that the Universe was beyond measure, some of those scientists, then and now, cannot fathom that One Being could make it.

If they were to consider many gods instead of chance making it, it might be easier for the non-religious people and scientists to believe in many gods.

I BELIEVE in ONE GOD. WE DO NOT PROVE ONE GOD! IT IS FAITH. I used capital letters, not to yell, but to emphasize.
 
Portofino, I agree, one can raise many questions about the plausibility of Catholicism, and it is something that must be weighed against other religions. To a large extent, I am sure that I view Catholicism as being more “plausible” because I grew up with it, am familiar with the arguments, want to believe it, etc.
 
Portofino, I agree, one can raise many questions about the plausibility of Catholicism, and it is something that must be weighed against other religions. To a large extent, I am sure that I view Catholicism as being more “plausible” because I grew up with it, am familiar with the arguments, want to believe it, etc.
I respect that. Laying all my own cards on the table, my own alternative to non-belief (certainly not original to me, in any respect) goes something like this:

–God (or the Tao, if one prefers) is indeed One, that towards which everything conscious is evolving, and into which everything will ultimately be reconciled. We as humans live many lives, eventually learning lessons that are necessary for our growth and evolution (“necessary” for us to evolve into greater harmony with this ultimate Godhead). The crux of the lessons to be learned here on what is fancifully called the “physical plane” is learning to love and to see beyond the illusion of separateness. That illusion of separateness is also the cause of much fear and confusion on the “physical plane.” The world is a pretty disharmonious place, but there is a striving towards harmony and towards a recognition of that underlying oneness.

Once we have evolved beyond this initial “level of existence”, there will be other levels, like moving up a scale. The tones of that scale are probably inconceivable to us, even though we can conceptualize their existence. The notes of that harmony may be inconceivable to us, and may involve a merging of many seemingly disparate, separate and “individuated” consciousnesses (like rivers flowing into the same ocean). Music, particularly choral music – the merging of many voices into one – may be a fertile metaphor for this merging of consciousness. Singing with one voice, indeed with one awareness.

In the “end”, all of the disharmony will be resolved into a single chord, the chord of the universal reconcilation of all things. The many will reunite with the one. Indeed, the truth of love may itself be the law of identity, a recognition of the inseparability of all things.

No proof , obviously, for any of these “intuitions” or musings, and their roots are pretty syncrenistic – elements of Neoplatonism, gnosticism, Buddhism/Hinduism, Taoism; theosophy; not least of all, what is called “New Age.” By my lights, though, it would be a pretty meaningful way for the world to be put together, and many are claiming that it is indeed put together in that way (including “channeled” material of more recent date, via trance mediumship).
 
I respect that. Laying all my own cards on the table, my own alternative to non-belief (certainly not original to me, in any respect) goes something like this:

–God (or the Tao, if one prefers) is indeed One, that towards which everything conscious is evolving, and into which everything will ultimately be reconciled. We as humans live many lives, eventually learning lessons that are necessary for our growth and evolution (“necessary” for us to evolve into greater harmony with this ultimate Godhead). The crux of the lessons to be learned here on what is fancifully called the “physical plane” is learning to love and to see beyond the illusion of separateness. That illusion of separateness is also the cause of much fear and confusion on the “physical plane.” The world is a pretty disharmonious place, but there is a striving towards harmony and towards a recognition of that underlying oneness.
While you’ve already acknowledge that this alternative isn’t original to you (it sounds like a form of panentheism), I can’t help but point out that it sounds similar (or compatible) with a view that was illustrated in the book “Johnathan Livingston Seagull” (yes, the main character is a seagull). The language of the book is simple; it opens like a children’s book. But once you get past the beginning it opens into a rather spiritual allegorical painting.
 
I am the OP.

Let me try again: I believe in One God.

BELIEVE is really important. We, not even St. Thomas, cannot prove One God. The Creed says: I believe in One God.
Uhm… not sure if I fully agree…

Aquinas might not fully prove God exists beyond any super-skeptic doubt… but I think he punches big holes in polytheism.
Next, when science began to see that the Universe was beyond measure, some of those scientists, then and now, cannot fathom that One Being could make it.
Well in the beginning they thought it was beyond measure, now they are not so sure.

They cannot ‘fathom’ how one being can create it because they are not informed.

On the other hand they think one single quantum fluctuation made it… 😃
If they were to consider many gods instead of chance making it, it might be easier for the non-religious people and scientists to believe in many gods.
No, that would only be MORE problematic.

The tenets of theism is that God is NOT ‘a cause of the universe’, let alone ‘a cause along others’.

God is THE cause above any cause, not a God of the gaps or a god that explains some particular phenomena.

Polytheism would just be even LESS defensible than theism. Actually in the ancient world several thinkers already refuted polytheism… without the need of modern science.

Moder atheists would not accept polytheism (maybe as a joke…) they think they do not need one God… let alone many!
I BELIEVE in ONE GOD. WE DO NOT PROVE ONE GOD! IT IS FAITH. I used capital letters, not to yell, but to emphasize.
Philosophy and Religion must aim for the truth, not enticing atheists.
 
Ismael

I am totally Catholic, in theology and philosophy.

I bring the issues up because the people that can’t imagine One Being making all of this, might be able to see the design if they were to consider many gods doing the creation and directing of the universe. This might be more for the average person than for the few scientists and few philosophers.

If a person does not have the gift of faith, these just might be stepping stones for them.

In my judgment, many gods is much better than no god. Then we might be able to convince them that there really is Justice, Goodness, Love, Beauty, Sobriety, Honesty, Kindness and the like.

St. Thomas’ proofs are preambles to faith. They are not part of our faith. He states this in a really gentle manner, but his demonstrations are steps before faith. Our Creed states that I believe–not know.

This is merely and idea or thought.
 
Ismael

I am totally Catholic, in theology and philosophy.
Yeah I got that. I did not believe otherwise 🙂
I bring the issues up because the people that can’t imagine One Being making all of this, might be able to see the design if they were to consider many gods doing the creation and directing of the universe. This might be more for the average person than for the few scientists and few philosophers.
If a person does not have the gift of faith, these just might be stepping stones for them.
In my judgment, many gods is much better than no god. Then we might be able to convince them that there really is Justice, Goodness, Love, Beauty, Sobriety, Honesty, Kindness and the like.
I disagree with this position… and Church Fathers (not to mention old testament Judaic prophets) have always strongly argued against polytheism and stressed the need to worship the One True God.
St. Thomas’ proofs are preambles to faith. They are not part of our faith. He states this in a really gentle manner, but his demonstrations are steps before faith. Our Creed states that I believe–not know.
True, Thomas Aquinas dealt often in Natural Theology which is not based on revelation or even ‘a priori faith’ but on metaphysical arguments.

Yet he stresses the idea we can argue for and about God through REASON.

I think that rejecting this is a very bad idea. It will only lead to fideims and to wrongly portray religion as something childish, some sort of psychological passifier
This is merely and idea or thought.
Yes and I gave my opinion 😛
 
Ismael

I would only recommend this to those that are agnostic or do not believe in a god.

I agree that it is absolutely dangerous for a Christian.

I agree with those that developed the area of Metaphysics that discerns a God.

For those that have cannot discern that, many gods might be a good starting point.

I still Believe in One God. I am not able to intellectual see that it has to be one god only.

I am familiar with the arguments about perfection, simplicity, immutability, infinity, and eternity. According to our logic–then there is only One God.
 
While you’ve already acknowledge that this alternative isn’t original to you (it sounds like a form of panentheism), I can’t help but point out that it sounds similar (or compatible) with a view that was illustrated in the book “Johnathan Livingston Seagull” (yes, the main character is a seagull). The language of the book is simple; it opens like a children’s book. But once you get past the beginning it opens into a rather spiritual allegorical painting.
In all seriousness, he’s one of my favorites 🙂 Speaking of children’s stories with a spiritual dimension, I also very much appreciated Jim Henson’s The Muppet Movie and the Dark Crystal (Henson was very influenced by the work of medium Jane Roberts; angelfire.com/me3/muppets/WordsJim.html), as well as Frank Baum’s Wizard of Oz (Baum was influenced by theosophy). teosofiskakompaniet.net/LFrankBaumTheosophist.htm

The Wizard of Oz film can be enjoyed on a few different levels, but one of them is this more “theosophical” orientation.

For example:

Dorothy: Oh, you’re the best friends anybody ever had. And it’s funny, but I feel as if I’d known you all the time, but I couldn’t have, could I?

Scarecrow: I don’t see how. You weren’t around when I was stuffed and sewn together, were you?

Tin Woodsman: And I was standing over there, rusting for the longest time.

Dorothy: Still, I wish I could remember, but I guess it doesn’t matter anyway. We know each other now, don’t we?

Scarecrow: That’s right.

On the one hand, this obviously refers to the fact that Dorothy is dreaming, and does know all of these folks, in real life (even though she doesn’t recognize that she’s dreaming, nor remember them to their waking counterparts). On another level, though, this is a “neat” metaphor for Baum’s belief in reincarnation, indeed a kind of “theosophical” parable.

Muppet Movie is similar… youtube.com/watch?v=ryEjm3k6uY0
 
Ismael

I totally agree with these passages.

God Can Be Known Through the Use of Reason

Wisdom 13: 5 For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original author, by analogy, is seen.

Psalm 53: 2 Fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is right.

Romans 1: 19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.
 
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