Pomp vs. festive Mass

[romanholiday]

Next week, our local Archbishop is coming to visit the high school I teach religion at. When he was here last fall, I had gone all out at the mass (we go to the church next door). We had candlebearers, a beautiful crucifix that I dug out of storage, incense at all the proper times, sanctus bells at the epiclesis and elevation, vimpa for handling the miter and crosier, candleabra. It was a beautiful, solemn and reverent Mass. Needless to say, that is not how our Masses usually go as my principal, fellow religion teachers and the church pastor all do not like using those things. But I was in charge and the students were excited.

Now that he his coming again I have been ordered by my principal to include altar girls(though the first time I didn’t exclude them because I disagree, just that boys are the ones interested here) and that no incense will be used. I was also told by the pastor that we need to have less pomp and a more festive, fun and joyful celebration this time.

I want to beat my head against a wall! The whole point of the “pomp” as they call it is to signify beauty, transcendence, and joy. The incense raises the solemnity of the occasion. And if the Archbishop coming to celebrate isn’t an occasion to be raised, I don’t know what is! We’ll see if HE says anything about the big difference to me after. The first time, he complimented me on the preparation of the servers and their obvious devotion and reverence. I would just tell him that I am trying but it is not an easy battle here with the school and the church. I’m sure he would get the idea.

Pray for me for patience and perseverance!

 

[benedictgal]

Next week, our local Archbishop is coming to visit the high school I teach religion at. When he was here last fall, I had gone all out at the mass (we go to the church next door). We had candlebearers, a beautiful crucifix that I dug out of storage, incense at all the proper times, sanctus bells at the epiclesis and elevation, vimpa for handling the miter and crosier, candleabra. It was a beautiful, solemn and reverent Mass. Needless to say, that is not how our Masses usually go as my principal, fellow religion teachers and the church pastor all do not like using those things. But I was in charge and the students were excited.

Now that he his coming again I have been ordered by my principal to include altar girls(though the first time I didn’t exclude them because I disagree, just that boys are the ones interested here) and that no incense will be used. I was also told by the pastor that we need to have less pomp and a more festive, fun and joyful celebration this time.

I want to beat my head against a wall! The whole point of the “pomp” as they call it is to signify beauty, transcendence, and joy. The incense raises the solemnity of the occasion. And if the Archbishop coming to celebrate isn’t an occasion to be raised, I don’t know what is! We’ll see if HE says anything about the big difference to me after. The first time, he complimented me on the preparation of the servers and their obvious devotion and reverence. I would just tell him that I am trying but it is not an easy battle here with the school and the church. I’m sure he would get the idea.

Pray for me for patience and perseverance!

I would get hold of a lovely little book called the Ceremonial of Bishops written by now Bishop Peter Elliot that lists the protocol for celebrations at which your archbishop presides. This includes, by the way, having seven candles at the altar and other things such as incense. There is protocol that should be followed when your Metropolitan comes to celebrate Mass in his Metropolitan See. Another piece of advice would be to consult with your Archbishop’s Master of Ceremonies and see what your Metropolitan would like.

Inasmuch as I don’t like to engage in document warfare, it does help to have the documents on your side in matters like what you are describing. It seems to me like your principal (is he clergy or is she a lay person or nun) is trying to implement personal idiosyncracies. Furthermore, festivity and solemnity do not necessarily have to be incompatible. Just look at the papal Masses from the Vatican. There is solemnity and sobriety, but, you don’t see the folks with long faces now, do you?

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Next week, our local Archbishop is coming to visit the high school I teach religion at. When he was here last fall, I had gone all out at the mass (we go to the church next door). We had candlebearers, a beautiful crucifix that I dug out of storage, incense at all the proper times, sanctus bells at the epiclesis and elevation, vimpa for handling the miter and crosier, candleabra. It was a beautiful, solemn and reverent Mass. Needless to say, that is not how our Masses usually go as my principal, fellow religion teachers and the church pastor all do not like using those things. But I was in charge and the students were excited.

Now that he his coming again I have been ordered by my principal to include altar girls(though the first time I didn’t exclude them because I disagree, just that boys are the ones interested here) and that no incense will be used. I was also told by the pastor that we need to have less pomp and a more festive, fun and joyful celebration this time.

I want to beat my head against a wall! The whole point of the “pomp” as they call it is to signify beauty, transcendence, and joy. The incense raises the solemnity of the occasion. And if the Archbishop coming to celebrate isn’t an occasion to be raised, I don’t know what is! We’ll see if HE says anything about the big difference to me after. The first time, he complimented me on the preparation of the servers and their obvious devotion and reverence. I would just tell him that I am trying but it is not an easy battle here with the school and the church. I’m sure he would get the idea.

Pray for me for patience and perseverance!

Well, in the end, a Bishop is just a lowly Priest like the rest. If he is to come as some type of Shepard of Jesus, then bypassing the formalities is a good approach. Good leaders do not need status symbols to follow them around.

 

[IrishAm]

Add the girls (have two of them; one will look like a “token”), cut the incense (maybe you could talk the bishop into blessing the people with a little ceremonial sprinkling to add something special), and keep all the other “whistles and bells” (as opposed to “smells and bells,” I guess).

Principal will think you did what he/she recommended and you are still able to offer a beautiful liturgy.

Compromise need not mean “change everything.” Although I know sometimes it feels that way.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

romanholiday

Isn’t really up to your pastor, on what sort of Mass will be said?

Jim

 

[romanholiday]

romanholiday

Isn’t really up to your pastor, on what sort of Mass will be said?

Jim

But he needs to follow the proper protocol too, it’s not just make it up as you go. He clearly doesn’t understand proper liturgical theology either to say that a solemn and reverent Mass is the opposite of a joyful and fun Mass. What a false argument! This is exactly the attitude that Benedict XVI is fighting!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

romanholiday

Your pastor is the authority in your parish. What he says, goes especially when it comes to how the Mass is celebrated. It is His place, not yours, to decide how things will be. He answers to the Bishop, and its the Bishop who will be saying the Mass. The Bishops and pastors don’t live in a vacuum. They are in constant communication with each other and your pastor knows what the Bishop is expecting.

In fact, in my dioceses, the Bishop has a priest who goes to the parishes before he gets there, to set things up, the way He wants them. The pastors yield to that priest, because they answer directly to the Bishop.

Jim

 

[romanholiday]

romanholiday

your pastor is the authority in your parish. What he says, goes and when it comes to how the Mass is celebrated, when the Bishop comes, it is His place, not yours, to decide how things will be. He answers to the Bishop, if the Mass is not correct, the Bishop will see it first hand.

Jim

I agree with you on most of this. What he says does go and that is why the liturgy is so poorly oriented with a “feel good” and “warm fuzzies” quality that is lacking in any of the solemnity or reverence called for by current and past Popes. Of course he decides how things will be, but that doesn’t mean he is above reproach! I have no problem critiquing his poor interpretation and implementation of authentically Catholic liturgical principles. Just think if we all just nodded our heads every time a priest, Bishop or Pope said anything. Maybe the Papacy would still be in Avignon! St. Catherine should have just kept her mouth shut and not challenged the Pope about returning to Rome! This is clericalism at its worst.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

romanholiday

I agree with you on most of this. What he says does go and that is why the liturgy is so poorly oriented with a “feel good” and “warm fuzzies” quality that is lacking in any of the solemnity or reverence called for by current and past Popes.

This is according to your interpretation, and not necessarily correct.

Of course he decides how things will be, but that doesn’t mean he is above reproach!

He is above your reproach. He’s a priest, the pastor of your parish. You need to be humble and allow him to do his job, without interferance, when you don’t see things going your way.
Pray for him, and your Bishop.

I have no problem critiquing his poor interpretation and implementation of authentically Catholic liturgical principles. Just think if we all just nodded our heads every time a priest, Bishop or Pope said anything. Maybe the Papacy would still be in Avignon! St. Catherine should have just kept her mouth shut and not challenged the Pope about returning to Rome! This is clericalism at its worst.

St. Catherine didn’t act on her own authority, but rather, from the directives given to her by Jesus Christ. Also, she didn’t go and tell the Pope to move to Rome, she presented why the Lord, not herself, wanted the papacy moved back to Rome. The words she spoke were from Christ, not herself, and its why the Pope agreed.

Jim

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Well, in the end, a Bishop is just a lowly Priest like the rest. If he is to come as some type of Shepard of Jesus, then bypassing the formalities is a good approach. Good leaders do not need status symbols to follow them around.

a bishop (from the Greek word episcopos, meaning “overseer”) is the chief shepherd of a diocese.

The Association for Catechumenal Ministry, “Titles, Terms, Ministries”, underlined emphasis mine

[Bishops] “exercise their pastoral office…” assisted by priests and deacons.

#886 CCC, underlined emphasis mine

The bishop is not “just a lowly Priest”. Why talk without doing research? It just wastes page space and lessens your credibility.

 

[Brendan]

romanholiday

Isn’t really up to your pastor, on what sort of Mass will be said?

Jim

Actually, no. It’s up to the bishop, and even then, under the guidelines that are issued by Rome.

No priest can be viewed as having authority apart from their bishop, and no priest can have more authority in a matter than their own bishop, since they participate in the authority of their bishop

And the bishops, in collegialtiy with each other, have created the protocols for the visit of a Metropolitian.

So absent specific instructions from the bishop to the contrary, the published protocols should be followed.

 

[romanholiday]

romanholiday

This is according to your interpretation, and not necessarily correct.

Let’s see…he is creative with the liturgy, adding his own little stand up routines here and there, ad-libbing defined prayers. This is in direct contradiction not to my opinion but the express opinion of Rome and the Holy Father

He is above your reproach. He’s a priest, the pastor of your parish. You need to be humble and allow him to do his job, without interferance, when you don’t see things going your way.
Pray for him, and your Bishop.

He is not above reproach. This is a fact whether you believe it or not. You are engaging in unthinking clericalism. The Church is hierarchical but not a robotic dictatorship. It is not my way that things are going, it is the Church’s way as documented over and over again from Rome.

St. Catherine didn’t act on her own authority, but rather, from the directives given to her by Jesus Christ. Also, she didn’t go and tell the Pope to move to Rome, she presented why the Lord, not herself, wanted the papacy moved back to Rome. The words she spoke were from Christ, not herself, and its why the Pope agreed

Jim

So in your view, we the laity should never say anything that would even resemble criticism of the clergy? If they preach heresy from the pulpit or run roughshod over the liturgy, just pray for them and hope the Bishop hears about it (oh, wait he won’t because we can’t say anything) and then does something about it. There are so many logical errors here it’s unbelievable!

 

[benedictgal]

I agree with you on most of this. What he says does go and that is why the liturgy is so poorly oriented with a “feel good” and “warm fuzzies” quality that is lacking in any of the solemnity or reverence called for by current and past Popes. Of course he decides how things will be, but that doesn’t mean he is above reproach! I have no problem critiquing his poor interpretation and implementation of authentically Catholic liturgical principles. Just think if we all just nodded our heads every time a priest, Bishop or Pope said anything. Maybe the Papacy would still be in Avignon! St. Catherine should have just kept her mouth shut and not challenged the Pope about returning to Rome! This is clericalism at its worst.

That’s why you should probably get hold of the Ceremonials for Bishops book that I mentioned in my earlier post. It’s best to get the protocol down pat and to teach the kids at your school the proper manner in which to greet your Metropolitan.

When we planned the liturrgy for our bishop to take possession of his cathedral, we studied Bishop Elliot’s little book and it was a big help. You don’t mention if the school is part of the parish or if you just “borrow” the church for your Masses. Either way, it would help that when your Metropolitan comes, you should greet him with a crucifx and the spicket full of Holy Water. He will then kiss the crucifix and bless himself with the Holy Water and bless you as well. Maybe have your principal, the president of your student council (a couple of other students) and the pastor join you as you welcome him. Then, lead him to the sacrist where he will vest.

Also, you will need to have seven candles on the altar. After reading the thread I started, I learned that when the Ordinary or the Metropolitan (in your case) celebrates Mass within his territorial jurisdiction, seven candles are used for the Mass. This doesn’t apply to visiting bishops or cardinals, unless the Pope should come. After you’ve recovered from the shock, you need to have seven candles for the Holy Father because he does have universlal jurisdiction.

If you have an organist, make sure that, when incense is used, he or she should play a piece that covers the lnegth of time for the Archbishop to incense the altar during the offertory. At the entrance, make sure that the hymn gives him enough time to incense the around the altar and anywhere else he may choose to go.

Also, while this is a no-brainer (it serves as a reminder) schedule your best lectors and best servers. Make sure that you have two extra servers because they need to hold the bishop’s mitre and crossier. If you can, have the one holding the crossier wear gloves and make sure that the one holding the mitre has a white cloth to keep it from getting dirty. These two should sit as close to the bishop as possible. If the bishop’s MC will be with him, he will tell the kids when to give the bishop what.

Before your school staff goes haywire on the incense, it is part of the items listed in Bishop Elliot’s book. If you have a chance, go to www.amazon.com and see if you can get it next day delivered or Saturday delivery. You’ll be able to find the book under Peter Elliot (it does not have him listed as Bishop yet).

I take it that he’s coming to your school because it is Catholic School’s week.

 

[puzzleannie]

Well, in the end, a Bishop is just a lowly Priest like the rest. If he is to come as some type of Shepard of Jesus, then bypassing the formalities is a good approach. Good leaders do not need status symbols to follow them around.

the so called status symbols are not to honor the Bishop, they are to honor Jesus Christ, whom he represents. you gotta problem with that?