Pondering Married Priests

[e_c]

I happen to know a fine priest who never actually went to seminary. So if we abandoned the seminary system, it follows that we would still have good priests.

The argument is no good, I’m sure you can see, even though it is true… Seeing that it works in this or that case is entirely different from promulgating or changing a law that allows many such cases.

Here are some considerations.

Expenses to educate the man (complicated, since he has a family… do we jettison immersive formation? do we build new seminaries that can hold large numbers of large families? etc.) and support his family (is the parish really going to pay for all 9 kids to go to college, or will the diocese have to subsidize, etc.).

Subjecting that family to a very delicate scrutiny by the parish, whether malicious or not.

Time strain.

Emotional/psychological strain.

Spiritual strain (Paul’s biggest concern and presumably related to why Christ calls “all who can bear it” to celibacy).

The significant disappearance of the universality of the witness of celibacy among Latin priests.

Most confusingly, the canonical issue of continence being still required for all clerics, even aside from celibacy being dispensed with in some cases. The question of celibacy is distinct from the question of continence… This is a big deal, as the tradition of clerical continence is stronger than that of clerical celibacy. See Dr. Ed Peters on this matter, I won’t get into it here. canonlaw.info/a_deacons.htm But this could, it is true, be changed with a pen and paper. The other issues deal with human nature and our society.

Here is one major document on the discipline, written in our own age:

w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_24061967_sacerdotalis.html

 

[drforjc]

Pope St. John Paul II also has some good reflections in his 1992 letter, “Pastores Dabo Vobis.” Read especially paragraphs 27 - 30.

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_25031992_pastores-dabo-vobis.html

 

[MaryT777]

I happen to know a fine priest who never actually went to seminary. So if we abandoned the seminary system, it follows that we would still have good priests.

The argument is no good, I’m sure you can see, even though it is true… Seeing that it works in this or that case is entirely different from promulgating or changing a law that allows many such cases.

Here are some considerations.

Expenses to educate the man (complicated, since he has a family… do we jettison immersive formation? do we build new seminaries that can hold large numbers of large families? etc.) and support his family (is the parish really going to pay for all 9 kids to go to college, or will the diocese have to subsidize, etc.).

Subjecting that family to a very delicate scrutiny by the parish, whether malicious or not.

Time strain.

Emotional/psychological strain.

Spiritual strain (Paul’s biggest concern and presumably related to why Christ calls “all who can bear it” to celibacy).

The significant disappearance of the universality of the witness of celibacy among Latin priests.

Most confusingly, the canonical issue of continence being still required for all clerics, even aside from celibacy being dispensed with in some cases. The question of celibacy is distinct from the question of continence… This is a big deal, as the tradition of clerical continence is stronger than that of clerical celibacy. See Dr. Ed Peters on this matter, I won’t get into it here. canonlaw.info/a_deacons.htm But this could, it is true, be changed with a pen and paper. The other issues deal with human nature and our society.

Here is one major document on the discipline, written in our own age:

w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_24061967_sacerdotalis.html

You note some excellent things to think about. I always wonder about the financial end not that that issue alone should dictate the decision about married priests. I think of how a priest could raise a family on the salary of a priest, married with children who would probably attend a Catholic school if available. Are people willing to tithe more to assist married priests with their additional housing and family expenses?

Your comment which I clipped from your post echo my sentiments as well regarding the financial aspect.

QUOTE FROM OP below"

**“is the parish really going to pay for all 9 kids to go to college, or will the diocese have to subsidize, etc.)”

**

 

[Cloisters]

The nine kids scenario is extreme and borders histrionic. Catholic families used to have 15 kids, but this is a rarity.

Priests have to be assigned to their parishes by their bishops, That being said, a priest with a family would likely be assigned to a very large parish (the Dallys were assigned to the cathedral parish) that could afford the extra however-much a month would be the married priests salary (in addition to the usual $400). He would also have payroll deductions for insurance, etc. His wife would work if necessary.

Like any other family, there would have to be creative ways of saving funds for college. The children would obviously be brought up in a pastoral, caring manner, which would likely lead them to their vocations. They would be encouraged to become independent, so that they’re not a burden to anyone else, which is what everyone should be doing anyway.

I don’t think we really have to ponder married priests, as they already exist. Just google married priests, and see how many actually come up. Fr. Dwight Longenecker is a married priest. See if he will answer an email. Or contact the Ordinariates.

What we are likely pondering here, though, is what the Holy Father said about Brazil. Canon law states that if a man can’t hack celibacy, he needs to leave. Brazilian priests have left in droves, and from what I understand, there is an actual pastoral crisis in that country.

The Holy Father is likely pondering permitting laicized priests to become incardinated again so they can minister. This is what the faithful are uptight about. I’ll say it again – clerical celibacy is church law which arose from inheritance issues. There is a mystical aspect of clerical celibacy which has been articulated by Pope St. John Paul II, and it is beautiful. But charity negates any law. Marriage is under attack these days, and we need holy examples. I also think married clergy, particularly converts, are living, walking ecumenism.

 

[drforjc]

There is a mystical aspect of clerical celibacy which has been articulated by Pope St. John Paul II, and it is beautiful. But charity negates any law.

I see no reasons why the current law would be contrary to charity, so your last sentence makes no sense to me.

I can tell you, as a convert to the Church who is also the child of a married Protestant minister, the toll on the family, especially the children, is high and cannot be waved aside with the excuse that all parents are busy these days, or that it’s just a price we will have to pay to have more priests.

What usually happens when you generally dispense with laws, is that the former practice practically ceases. St. John Paul II’s “mystical aspect… which is beautiful,” would in all likelihood become moot within a generation. This, IMO, would be an absolute tragedy for the Church.

 

[MaryT777]

My friend, the son of a Pentecostal Pastor, called himself a “PK” Pastor’s Kid as there is known stress to be in this situation. He spoke of the ‘fishbowl’ existence where you are like a fish in bowl where everyone is watching closely the behavior of the Pastor’s children and wife and of course as with any religion with the Pastor him/herself.

He is the only one I know who grew up in this circumstance so it could be his unique experience but I imagine it’s not unusual to struggle with balancing the needs of a Parish with that of a family.

Just something to think about with married priests.

Mary.

 

[Cloisters]

I see no reasons why the current law would be contrary to charity, so your last sentence makes no sense to me.

I can tell you, as a convert to the Church who is also the child of a married Protestant minister, the toll on the family, especially the children, is high and cannot be waved aside with the excuse that all parents are busy these days, or that it’s just a price we will have to pay to have more priests.

What usually happens when you generally dispense with laws, is that the former practice practically ceases. St. John Paul II’s “mystical aspect… which is beautiful,” would in all likelihood become moot within a generation. This, IMO, would be an absolute tragedy for the Church.

I was speaking in relation to the Brazil situation. I never said anything about doing away with celibate priests. Jesus does the calling, and He will continue to call men to celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom.

I was raised Southern Baptist, and ran around with the Minister of Music’s kids. While my hometown was 56% Catholic, there were still plenty of Protestant PKs in town. Yes, it’s akin to being a celebrity. I once saw the school principal smack and pop his own kid on the side of the head from behind when he saw the child giggling with a friend in the pew in front of him. I was astonished, told mom, and she explained it had to do with his being a principal. I was also a Merchant Kid, and I was very censured when it came to strong opinions for the sake of the business.

However, we did have a resigned priest who did marriage preparation.

 

[Cloisters]

My friend, the son of a Pentecostal Pastor, called himself a “PK” Pastor’s Kid as there is known stress to be in this situation. He spoke of the ‘fishbowl’ existence where you are like a fish in bowl where everyone is watching closely the behavior of the Pastor’s children and wife and of course as with any religion with the Pastor him/herself.

He is the only one I know who grew up in this circumstance so it could be his unique experience but I imagine it’s not unusual to struggle with balancing the needs of a Parish with that of a family.

Just something to think about with married priests.

Mary.

If the man is the main breadwinner, then the kids won’t see but a bit of him daily. Same would hold true of other professions, including clergy. Since I know that there are married priests out there, I almost feel as if I’m talking behind their backs. I already accept them as a reality for today’s church.

 

[drforjc]

My friend, the son of a Pentecostal Pastor, called himself a “PK” Pastor’s Kid as there is known stress to be in this situation. He spoke of the ‘fishbowl’ existence where you are like a fish in bowl where everyone is watching closely the behavior of the Pastor’s children and wife and of course as with any religion with the Pastor him/herself.

He is the only one I know who grew up in this circumstance so it could be his unique experience but I imagine it’s not unusual to struggle with balancing the needs of a Parish with that of a family.

Just something to think about with married priests.

Mary.

I know exactly what he is talking about.

 

[drforjc]

If the man is the main breadwinner, then the kids won’t see but a bit of him daily. Same would hold true of other professions, including clergy. .

This is exactly what I objected to when I said:

cannot be waved aside with the excuse that all parents are busy these days, or that it’s just a price we will have to pay to have more priests.

 

[jeannetherese]

If the man is the main breadwinner, then the kids won’t see but a bit of him daily. Same would hold true of other professions, including clergy. Since I know that there are married priests out there, I almost feel as if I’m talking behind their backs. I already accept them as a reality for today’s church.

If he is the main breadwinner plus the local priest, he is juggling two professions. if he is the main breadwinner plus the local priest, plus parenting, he is juggling three.

Over 20 years ago, the Orthodox Church published a study noting the stresses that this juggling, and, at times, financial pressures were placing on their married priests as they sought means of alleviating this stress.

holy-trinity.org/morality/synod-marriageandpriest.html

The article below, written by an Episcopalian minister cites the 2012 study put out in the LA Times showing rates of divorce among the clergy, and offering a snapshot of his friends experiences, and also, his own experience with divorce and a subsequent remarriage. His good news?
“Fortunately for me, I met and married a wonderful woman who has been my partner and spouse for 23 years. This is good news for every priest who is going through divorce. You can find a great partner and friend the second time around.”

episcopaljourneyofhope.blogspot.com/2012/09/clergy-divorce.html

The L.A. Times article based on a 1993/94 survey) is linked below:
articles.latimes.com/1995-07-01/local/me-19084_1_divorce-rate

 

[MaryT777]

If he is the main breadwinner plus the local priest, he is juggling two professions. if he is the main breadwinner plus the local priest, plus parenting, he is juggling three.

Over 20 years ago, the Orthodox Church published a study noting the stresses that this juggling, and, at times, financial pressures were placing on their married priests as they sought means of alleviating this stress.

holy-trinity.org/morality/synod-marriageandpriest.html

The article below, written by an Episcopalian minister cites the 2012 study put out in the LA Times showing rates of divorce among the clergy, and offering a snapshot of his friends experiences, and also, his own experience with divorce and a subsequent remarriage. His good news?
“Fortunately for me, I met and married a wonderful woman who has been my partner and spouse for 23 years. This is good news for every priest who is going through divorce. You can find a great partner and friend the second time around.”

episcopaljourneyofhope.blogspot.com/2012/09/clergy-divorce.html

The L.A. Times article based on a 1993/94 survey) is linked below:
articles.latimes.com/1995-07-01/local/me-19084_1_divorce-rate

I know 2 non Catholic Pastors who were divorced. On had an ok experience with his parishes, he was Pastor at two small parishes. His wife left him. He later remarried a woman with several children and the parishes were fine with this situation, They were non judgmental and accepting of the new wife.

The other Pastor wasn’t so lucky. Many knew his wife as well as she was active in the Church in many ministries and the congregation took sides as to who was at fault. The Pastor could be grumpy, short with people, aloof and said some so it must have been fault. This caused a huge rift in the parish and he lost many members for leaving his wife. She was controlling etc Horrifying to be in this type of situation for all involved.

Divorced clergy would be a reality if there were married clergy in Catholic Churches. That said divorce is a reality and a priest could go through the “nullity process” like others are required to do so as well. if they hope to remarry. Perhaps that would bring more compassion to the process of declaring a marriage invalid.

I think of child support, and all that baggage and how difficult that would be.

That said, despite these issue I’m all for trying a married priesthood to perhaps help the crisis of a priest shortage in many areas.

Mary.

 

[e_c]

The nine kids scenario is extreme and borders histrionic. Catholic families used to have 15 kids, but this is a rarity.

Priests have to be assigned to their parishes by their bishops, That being said, a priest with a family would likely be assigned to a very large parish (the Dallys were assigned to the cathedral parish) that could afford the extra however-much a month would be the married priests salary (in addition to the usual $400). He would also have payroll deductions for insurance, etc. His wife would work if necessary.

Like any other family, there would have to be creative ways of saving funds for college. The children would obviously be brought up in a pastoral, caring manner, which would likely lead them to their vocations. They would be encouraged to become independent, so that they’re not a burden to anyone else, which is what everyone should be doing anyway.

I don’t think we really have to ponder married priests, as they already exist. Just google married priests, and see how many actually come up. Fr. Dwight Longenecker is a married priest. See if he will answer an email. Or contact the Ordinariates.

What we are likely pondering here, though, is what the Holy Father said about Brazil. Canon law states that if a man can’t hack celibacy, he needs to leave. Brazilian priests have left in droves, and from what I understand, there is an actual pastoral crisis in that country.

The Holy Father is likely pondering permitting laicized priests to become incardinated again so they can minister. This is what the faithful are uptight about. I’ll say it again – clerical celibacy is church law which arose from inheritance issues. There is a mystical aspect of clerical celibacy which has been articulated by Pope St. John Paul II, and it is beautiful. But charity negates any law. Marriage is under attack these days, and we need holy examples. I also think married clergy, particularly converts, are living, walking ecumenism.

Au contraire, I actually personally know such a priest in such a situation. It’s a challenge.

Secondly, such a priest would be better off with a SMALL parish which needs less attention. The money can be provided by the diocese, and would probably have to be anyway.

The Holy Father can do as he pleases. And I don’t think he is a lurker on these boards. So this is all kind of academic anyway.

 

[InThePew]

The general assumption in this thread seems to be that those married men who would be candidates for priesthood would be around the same age as other, current candidates. However, it’s far more likely that they would in fact be much older - considering, for example, that the minimum age for ordination of married permanent deacon is 35. This would address most of the concerns regarding support of dependent children, etc. Put simply, the Church isn’t going to accept a man with nine dependent children.

I can definitely see a place for older married men in the priesthood as well as some distinct advantages that they would bring, particularly from the experience of having children. This is one of the less obvious disadvantages of celibacy - there are many things which parents know just from their own experience of being parents which those who don’t have kids aren’t always aware of.

 

[Vico]

There’s an item down in the news section on a rumor that Pope Francis is going to allow married men who had to leave their position as Priests to return, in Brazil, in order to address a Priest shortage. That item is here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1036405

That got me thinking, and I posted the item below, but as this expands out from the conversation on Brazil, I thought I’d cross post as a thread up here to see what people think.

I’m sure that this has been discussed ad nausem up here, but none the less, here goes:

In an effort to contribute, and after pondering this, I’ll add the following.

Before I do, let me know that I’m a very traditional Catholic. Not a Rad Trad, but I’m definitely on the traditional end. If I could put the alter rail back in my church, I would. And if they offered a Latin Mass here, I’d definitely go from time to time. And I’m glad that a selection of Cardinals has written their Dubia.

And I also feel that, in this day and age in which the history of the early Church is so easily obtainable, the truth of our Faith is beyond reasonable question.

With that background then, I’ll add this.

I think we ought to rethink the prohibition on married Priests in the Latin Rite.

We’ve been discussing St. Peter, of course, and I’ll be frank that while I think Karl Keating has done a huge favor to the Faith by starting Catholic Answers, I don’t find his argument regarding Peter’s spouse convincing. I really don’t see why we’d expect the writers of the Gospels to write about Peter’s wife and child(ren). Writing was a difficult and expensive burden and we know from the writers of the Gospels themselves that they omitted even many miracles from their writings, as they say they omitted them. If they were omitting miracles, why would they expend the resources necessary to detail family members unless necessary?

And I’m not prepared to discount Clement of Alexandria when he says he saw Peter’s wife martyred. Maybe he was mistaken, but it’d be assuming a lot for me to assume so. Admittedly that’s not much to go on, but it’s not so little that we can just discount it.

Carrying on, we also know that at least some early Bishops of the Church were married. Paul, in writing to Timothy, noted:

“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity”

If Paul was of the opinion that Bishops should be good husbands and not drink too much, and govern his children well, this tells us that a married man could be a bishop and could drink (but not to excess) and could have children, and still be qualified to be Bishops.

And of course the prohibition on married priests exists only in the Latin Rite, although I believe that the Eastern Rite and the Orthodox do not allow married men to be Bishops.

Okay, here’s my question then.

I can think of some good current reasons why Priests should not be married. The life being a Priest requires, the pressure of the modern world, the need to move every few years, and the economic burden to the Parish, but I can think of some reasons why the opposite is true.

Principal amongst those is that it seems to me that times have changed so that its less likely, at least in the West, that manly young men heed their call in the sex saturated world in which we live today. In a culture in which virginity of any kind is abhorred its tough not to be distracted when young by this. Allowing married Priests would operate against this, I think, and allow a more manly class to be attracted to their vocation.

I also think that many hear that call later on, after they have been married. After a few years enduring the delusion of the satisfactory natures of careers, and the like, as they age, that old call comes back. But what then? Even if they have a good and faithful Catholic wife, and even, let’s say, if the children are grown and gone, they may not then answer the old call.

And on that, in an era in which we discourage the very young from entering the seminary, as we once did, and we allow for the ordination of priests who are middle aged or even a little older than that, what would be the harm in allow married Priests to some degree? That is, why shouldn’t the Latin Rite allow men to be ordained, let’s say, whose wives are past their childbearing years when their children are grown and gone? Indeed, wouldn’t that be an inspiration to those younger people as they considered their careers?

For that matter, why not encourage biritual Priests from the Eastern Rite to serve in Latin Rite churches if there’s enough of them? The Eastern Rite is pretty small in North American and Western Europe and t hey only need so many Priests. If they had a surplus of interested men (and I don’t know that they do) I’d be for the Latin Rite taking them in service, even though of course they’d remain Easter Rite Priests.

Thoughts?

Many eastern Catholic parishes have been closed due to decreasing numbers and also few priests, and those may travel between a few regularly. A parish must supply the money to support the family and also the wife of a priest must make many sacrifices.

 

[AKDee]

The general assumption in this thread seems to be that those married men who would be candidates for priesthood would be around the same age as other, current candidates. However, it’s far more likely that they would in fact be much older - considering, for example, that the minimum age for ordination of married permanent deacon is 35. This would address most of the concerns regarding support of dependent children, etc. Put simply, the Church isn’t going to accept a man with nine dependent children.

I can definitely see a place for older married men in the priesthood as well as some distinct advantages that they would bring, particularly from the experience of having children. This is one of the less obvious disadvantages of celibacy - there are many things which parents know just from their own experience of being parents which those who don’t have kids aren’t always aware of.

I think you make a good point. And as to the demands on the priest’s wife, I see similar demands being placed on the wives of the two Deacons in our parish.