Pondering the Trinity

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Glassjester

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I imagine God existing without anything else at all. The moment (or timeless epoch) before Creation.

Without anything else in existence, God would have nothing to know of, nothing to be aware of, other than Himself. I see, in God’s self-awareness, the Trinity.

If God alone existed, there would still be, in existence, three things. God the Father (the subject, the knower), God the Son (the object, the known), and God the Holy Spirit (the self-awareness by which God knows Himself), which proceeds from the Father and Son.

Even if nothing BUT God existed, there would be three persons, all existing in relation to one another, yet distinct persons. The knower is NOT the known, yet both are God, the same God. Neither the knower nor the known are the knowledge itself, yet all three are one God.

Is this a Catholic view of the Trinity? Is my opinion heretical in any way? What reading would you suggest to further my understanding, or (in the case of heresy) correct my view?
 
Glassjester said:
I imagine God existing without anything else at all. The moment (or timeless epoch) before Creation.

Without anything else in existence, God would have nothing to know of, nothing to be aware of, other than Himself. I see, in God’s self-awareness, the Trinity.

If God alone existed, there would still be, in existence, three things. God the Father (the subject, the knower), God the Son (the object, the known), and God the Holy Spirit (the self-awareness by which God knows Himself), which proceeds from the Father and Son.

Even if nothing BUT God existed, there would be three persons, all existing in relation to one another, yet distinct persons. The knower is NOT the known, yet both are God, the same God. Neither the knower nor the known are the knowledge itself, yet all three are one God.

Is this a Catholic view of the Trinity? Is my opinion heretical in any way? What reading would you suggest to further my understanding, or (in the case of heresy) correct my view?
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The Holy Trinity is beyond our comprehension - although we can contemplate - creation of this world had a beginning but GOD has no beginning and no end. It is for this reason holy Mother the Church calls the Holy Trinity - a mystery.
 
=Glassjester;7499566]I imagine God existing without anything else at all. The moment (or timeless epoch) before Creation.
Click to expand...
Without anything else in existence, God would have nothing to know of, nothing to be aware of, other than Himself. I see, in God’s self-awareness, the Trinity.
Click to expand...
If God alone existed, there would still be, in existence, three things. God the Father (the subject, the knower), God the Son (the object, the known), and God the Holy Spirit (the self-awareness by which God knows Himself), which proceeds from the Father and Son.
Click to expand...
Even if nothing BUT God existed, there would be three persons, all existing in relation to one another, yet distinct persons. The knower is NOT the known, yet both are God, the same God. Neither the knower nor the known are the knowledge itself, yet all three are one God.
Click to expand...
Is this a Catholic view of the Trinity? Is my opinion heretical in any way? What reading would you suggest to further my understanding, or (in the case of heresy) correct my view?
Click to expand...
WOW! :rolleyes:

What a GREAT first post. Welcome to the Forum!

Your understanding i in line with Catholic Thought and teaching, keeping in mind that the TRINITY is a Mystery, which by defination means that humanity can not fully understand it.

I do however think [my opinion here] that unlimted knowledge is the pervue of God alone, and would therefore and is in a REAL sense be God’s personal property. I don’t envision the ability to seperate God form God’s unlimited knowledge, any more than one could seperate God from God’ Love for example.

Again welcome to the Forum!

God Bless,
Pat
 
God is a family, a Trinity of 3 Divine Persons. The most beautiful thing one can say about them is that they have only 1 will among themselves. They exist in perfect harmony and enjoy perfect happiness and joy. The Trinity will give to each Person its distinct enjoyment and happiness. The Father in all eternity sees a reflection of Himself in the Son. This rapture of happiness and joy and Love binds the Trinity as one and it can be said that they need nothing else. The Trinity was overflowing with so much desire and Love that they decided to make receptecles of themselves where they can deposit their Love into and have fellowship and communion with. Thus the purpose for creation. God wanted to create people so as to deposit His Love ( His Holy Spirit ) and therefore commune with them. It is not that God needs this for He is All-Sufficient within Himself but He wanted to create out of His Love and Desire to share what He has within Himself and therefore to give us Eternal Life as He knows it. Our own families is a reflection of the Trinity with its most perfect example, the Holy Family, a trinity on earth.
 
Glassjester said:
I imagine God existing without anything else at all. The moment (or timeless epoch) before Creation.

Without anything else in existence, God would have nothing to know of, nothing to be aware of, other than Himself. I see, in God’s self-awareness, the Trinity.

If God alone existed, there would still be, in existence, three things. God the Father (the subject, the knower), God the Son (the object, the known), and God the Holy Spirit (the self-awareness by which God knows Himself), which proceeds from the Father and Son.

Even if nothing BUT God existed, there would be three persons, all existing in relation to one another, yet distinct persons. The knower is NOT the known, yet both are God, the same God. Neither the knower nor the known are the knowledge itself, yet all three are one God.

Is this a Catholic view of the Trinity? Is my opinion heretical in any way? What reading would you suggest to further my understanding, or (in the case of heresy) correct my view?
Click to expand...
It sounds great to me except for the underlined part. You seem to make a distinction between the knower (the Father), the known (the Son), and the knowledge itself. But the knowledge is one and the same as the known (the Son), which itself is identical with the knower (the Father). In other words, the known (the Word) is also the knowlege. There is no distinction. The Word is, as it were, the intellect, or knowledge, of the Father. And since all three persons are indentical in essense, the knowledge that is the known (the Son), is identical with the knower (the Father). Therefore, there can be no distinction between the knower, the known, and the knowledge.
 
I learned it when I was child in this way:

God the Father knows Himself perfectly, and this knowledge is so perfect that it is a separate person the Son. The Father and the Son loves each other perfectly, and this love is so perfect that this is a separate person the Holy Spirit.

Naturally this also is just an human analogy. The mystery of the Holy Trinity is incomprehensible.
 
Glassjester said:
I imagine God existing without anything else at all. The moment (or timeless epoch) before Creation.

Without anything else in existence, God would have nothing to know of, nothing to be aware of, other than Himself. I see, in God’s self-awareness, the Trinity.

If God alone existed, there would still be, in existence, three things. God the Father (the subject, the knower), God the Son (the object, the known), and God the Holy Spirit (the self-awareness by which God knows Himself), which proceeds from the Father and Son.
Click to expand...
After sending my last post, I read what you wrote again found something else that needs to be addressed. You refer to the Three Persons as the knower (The Father), the known (the Son), and the knowledge (the Third Person). When I wrote the prior reply, I did not realize that you were referring to the Third Person as “knowledge”. While your description of the First and Second Person seems to be in perfect accord with the teaching of the Church, what you describe as the Third Person is different.

The Third Person is not the knowledge of God, but the Love of God. The knowlege of God is the Second Person. The knowlege is same as the known, for what is known, is the knowledge. The Third Person is the Love “produced” when the knower considers the known, and when the known, in return, considers the knower.

This is how it is explained by Catholic theology: The Word (Second Person) proceeds from the Father (First Person), just as a thought proceeds from our mind. The Word is, as it were, the intellect of God.

Now, this thought of God is so perfect and complete in itself that it is a distinct Person within the one being of God. When the Person of the Father considers the infinite perfection of His thought, such love is “generated” that it spirates the Third Person, who is the Love of the Father and the Son. Yet this happens without there being a first, or last in the Persons. All are from eternity, with no before or after possible.

We can sometimes see a similar effect within ourselves, but to an infinitely lesser degree. Has it ever happened that you were considering something over a period of time, and trying to come to an understanding of it? And has the understanding ever come to you at once, thereby resulting in an intellectual love for the truth discovered?

When our grasp of a particular truth produces an intellectual love, it gives us a slight glimpse, as it were, of the operation within God, whereby the Father’s love for the infinite Truth spirates the infinite Love that is the Holy Ghost.
 
Thomas_Aquinas said:
It sounds great to me except for the underlined part. You seem to make a distinction between the knower (the Father), the known (the Son), and the knowledge itself. But the knowledge is one and the same as the known (the Son), which itself is identical with the knower (the Father). In other words, the known (the Word) is also the knowlege. There is no distinction.
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But the Trinity is three distinct persons, no?
Thomas_Aquinas said:
The Word is, as it were, the intellect, or knowledge, of the Father. And since all three persons are indentical in essense, the knowledge that is the known (the Son), is identical with the knower (the Father). Therefore, there can be no distinction between the knower, the known, and the knowledge.
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The knowledge is not the known. The knowledge is knowledge of the known. Knowledge of a thing is not the thing itself. Nor is the knower the knowledge itself. Is it?
 
Thomas_Aquinas said:
The Third Person is not the knowledge of God, but the Love of God.
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If God is love, then certainly to have a perfect knowledge of God** is** to love God perfectly. And who knows God perfectly but Himself?
Matthew 11:27 - All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
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Glassjester said:
But the Trinity is three distinct persons, no?
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Yes. Be sure to read my second reply. I misunderstood you when I replied the first time. I’ll hold off on responding until you read my second reply.
 
OK, I realize that you have read my second reply, so I will respond to this one.
Glassjester said:
But the Trinity is three distinct persons, no?
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Yes.
The knowledge is not the known. The knowledge is knowledge of the known. Knowledge of a thing is not the thing itself. Nor is the knower the knowledge itself. Is it?
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But in God, the knowledge is actually one thing with the known. The Word of God (the Second Person) is the knowledge of God. In God, the knowlege is so infinite, perfect, and complete, that it constitutes a distinct Person within the being of God - it is the Logos of God.
If God is love, then certainly to have a perfect knowledge of God is to love God perfectly. And who knows God perfectly but Himself?
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Exactly right. What you wrote is exactly perfect. The created finite intellect (that we possess) is incapable of knowing God perfectly as He is. If we make it to heaven, we will contemplate God for all eternity, but never fully comprehend Him. I believe it has been said that if a person could comprehend God as He is, the person would become God (which, of course, is not possible).

Only God can truly comprehend God as He is. Do you see that we are delving into the mystery of the Trinity? Only God can completely comprehend God. The knowledge of God for Himself “spirates” the Love of God. God the Father is Infinite; God the Son, who is the knowledge of God, is Infinite; and the love “generated” by the contemplation of the two Infinite beings is Itself Infinite. And since the three Persons are capable of truly knowing one another, they are essentially the same. The infinite cannot truly comprehend the infinite within being infinite itself. As such, there can be no difference between the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, for the three contemplate one another. The only difference between the three is that the Father is un-begotten; the Son is begotten from the Father, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from Both. But the three Persons are essentially identical. One does not possess a quality distinct from the other, nor does one lack in any quality of the others. They are all infinite, and as such are essentially the same. Yet, though the same, they are distinct Persons within the One God.

What a great conversation!
 
For this wonderful conversation I have to quote the following from the Athanasian Creed.

Athanasian Creed
  1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
  2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
  3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
  4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
  5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
  6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
  7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
  8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
  9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. [because only God can comprehend Himself - T.A.]
  10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
  11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
  12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
  13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
  14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
  15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
  16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
  17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
  18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
  19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
  20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
  21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
  22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
  23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
  24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
  25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
  26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
  27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
  28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
What beautiful words!
 
There is one God and only one God. His name is the Holy Spirit. And not the words “Holy Spirit” but the reality of the Holy Spirit.
 
Glassjester,

I wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you return and post more.
 
Glassjester said:
But the Trinity is three distinct persons, no?
The knowledge is not the known. The knowledge is knowledge of the known. Knowledge of a thing is not the thing itself. Nor is the knower the knowledge itself. Is it?
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For us,and for the knowledge of the outside world. In the knowledge of the self the knower is the same as the know, this makes it self knowledge.
 
I believe that in everything, in our prayers, our works, regardless of which person of the Trinity we address to, the Trinity is always there. For an example, let take the Crucifixion of our Lord. The Holy Ghost enabled Pontitus Pilate to spoke out for Jesus, something that even now I am still amazed, Jesus, just an another criminal, is somehow special to Pilate, why does Pilate spoke out so fervently for Jesus? It is because of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit helped Pilate respond to this man, the Son of God. Then there is Jesus of course, about to be crucified, who’s about to acomplish the work of His Father.

Likewise, everytime I pray, regardless of to Jesus or to the Father or the the Holy Spirit, the Trinity is there, the Holy Spirit is there to open my heart to the prayer. The Son Jesus is there because from Him, I receive my salvation and become a child of God. and God the Father is there because I am praying to Him, and I am calling our to Him as Father.
 
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