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RyanBlack
Guest
In Jeremy’s defense, it wasn’t much of an apology.
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dzheremi
Guest
If you don’t see why the quoted website is offensive and hurts relations between Catholics and Tewahedo Orthodox Christians (making the subsequent explanation of “relations between Rome and Ethiopia have been an uphill struggle, so I don’t see why this is offensive” all the more curious), I don’t know what to tell you. Other Catholics seem to understand why it is offensive, so maybe ask them to explain it to you. My only point was that I wouldn’t think it okay to post similar things about the Roman Catholic Church just because our relations are less-than-good sometimes, as doing so only exacerbates the situation.
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MACADAMIANUTS
Guest
Please, let me apologize again. Heart felt. I take blame on ignorance. I will even admit, I had even a misunderstanding of the word “debased.” I am embarrased. I’m also human and do make mistakes. I have, however, learned something from this. It has everything to do with the QUESTION at hand and why we struggle for the answer. Forgive this quote from newadvent.org/cathen/05230a.htm " The Abyssinian Church, being the religion of more than half barbarous people, cut off by the schism from relations with any other Christian body except the poor and backward Copts, is certainly the lowest representative of the great Christian family." I think most of us know that websight. Do we trust it now? This the wolf in sheep’s clothing? “Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." 6:20 " " Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ’s Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each." and "It has been stressed several times that the full union of the Catholic Eastern Churches with the Church of Rome which has already been achieved must not imply a diminished awareness of their own authenticity and originality.(58) Wherever this occurred, the Second Vatican Council has urged them to rediscover their full identity, because they have “the right and the duty to govern themselves according to their own special disciplines. For these are guaranteed by ancient tradition, and seem to be better suited to the customs of their faithful and to the good of their souls.” My point is simple. It’s all the fighting that blinds us, and fear. This “war” has been so bloody and ongoing, its scarey. We all have so much we can learn from each other. Lets all pray we don’t ruin are chance to teach what we know to one another. And pray we all find union in our Lord.
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MACADAMIANUTS
Guest
Take this quote and links for whatever you believe it to be worth. catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0804.html " The Ge’ez Ethiopian Rite is a variation of the Alexandrian Coptic Rite with Syriac and Jewish influence. Judaism was practiced by some Ethiopians before the arrival of Christianity, and pocket communities of Jewish Ethiopians still exist. The Church there is unique in retaining circumcision, dietary laws, and both Saturday and Sunday Sabbath." and read these ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=301523&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu= and ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=481178&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=
I am certain that you understand this but for the lurkers and the ignorant, I will clarify something.
The Ethiopian Orthodox are not Judaizers. Judaizers require one to follow certain Jewish practices for one to be called a Christian and/or receive salvation. The Ethiopians maintain certain Jewish practices but do not require them for salvation. They are in Communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church who does not follow the Jewish practices (although many Copts are circumcised these days as a Coptic cultural thing).
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dzheremi
Guest
In the EOTC, both Saturday and Sunday are observed as holy, but Sunday is treated as primary/the greater of the two.
Regarding Judaism among the Ethiopians predating Christianity, that’s certainly what their origin stories say, but it is not universally accepted among Rabbinic authorities that they are actual Jews. The Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) have faced a lot of discrimination in Israel because of this (you can see a dramatization of this 2005 French film “LIve and Become”). Even outside of Jewish law interpreters, Jews in entirely other fields such as ethnomuiscologist Kay Kaufman Shelemay have hypothesized that much of their ritual actually either derives from or developed in tandem with and under the influence of Orthodox Tewahedo church ritual. While they use slightly different instrumentation, the basic melodic structure of their services is very similar to that of the EOTC, and like the EOTC they use Ge’ez as their liturgical language (and speak Amharic or Triginya natively, though traditionally they spoke Agaw/Cushitic languages, and some of their closest ethnocolutural relatives, like the Qemant people, still speak these languages in tiny numbers back in Ethiopia, in Gondar zone of the Amhara region).
Regarding Judaism among the Ethiopians predating Christianity, that’s certainly what their origin stories say, but it is not universally accepted among Rabbinic authorities that they are actual Jews. The Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) have faced a lot of discrimination in Israel because of this (you can see a dramatization of this 2005 French film “LIve and Become”). Even outside of Jewish law interpreters, Jews in entirely other fields such as ethnomuiscologist Kay Kaufman Shelemay have hypothesized that much of their ritual actually either derives from or developed in tandem with and under the influence of Orthodox Tewahedo church ritual. While they use slightly different instrumentation, the basic melodic structure of their services is very similar to that of the EOTC, and like the EOTC they use Ge’ez as their liturgical language (and speak Amharic or Triginya natively, though traditionally they spoke Agaw/Cushitic languages, and some of their closest ethnocolutural relatives, like the Qemant people, still speak these languages in tiny numbers back in Ethiopia, in Gondar zone of the Amhara region).
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Brother,
Is there a Tradition in the EOTC of treating Rabbi Gamaliel (Rav of Saul/St. Paul?) as a saint, if not officially, by popular acclaim?
Is there a Tradition in the EOTC of treating Rabbi Gamaliel (Rav of Saul/St. Paul?) as a saint, if not officially, by popular acclaim?
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dzheremi
Guest
I really don’t know the answer to that. I don’t recall seeing him commemorated in either of the EOTC synaxaria I’ve looked through, but that doesn’t mean much (I could have just missed it, or he could be the subject of local/unofficial veneration, rather than official). Unfortunately, the Ethiopians who used to worship with us at St. Bishoy moved away last December, so I’m not sure where I could go to ask that question. Sorry.
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pnewton
Guest
Here is Jimmy Akin on the topic of Gamaliel as a saint. I know that is not the exact question you asked. I would like to make two observations. One, any of the early saints who were acclaimed to be saints may not be real saints, East or West, as the process was never said to be infallible. Two, on a personal note, I really have enjoyed the information of the last couple of days given here. I really like the richness of the early Christian tradition as it played out across the world.
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