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trevorhall
Guest
Fine job! That is great.Pilate was the typical “personally opposed but” politician.
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steve53
Guest
Situational analysis.
Roman officials were corrupt and an assignment to a foreign province was a way to make a fortune and fund one’s retirement.
To say Pilate WASN’T paid off by the Priests (on a regular basis, not just in the Jesus incident) would be a stretch.
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ovenwally74
Guest
Jerusalem was a hotbed of political anti- roman sentiment that had been festering for years. The Jews hated the Greeks and Romans and were primed for a Prophetic Jewish leader to arise and overthrow the Roman yoke of oppression restoring the fortunes of Israel back to the glory days of David and Solomon. In fact, a hundred years later, the Jewish Nation finally received whom they thought was that Leader, a man Simon Bar Kokhba, led the Nation in a great, failed rebellion against Rome that led to the final expulsion of the Jews out of the land, now renamed Palestine by the Romans, to become a Nation in exile for the next 17 and-a-half centuries until 1948, when they returned to Israel. (Without precedent in all of history. Surely a stupendous miracle proving the Divine Providence of God!) The Jews had hoped that Jesus was that leader, but He made it clear that “My Kingdom is not of this world.” Roman spies observed that Jesus was strictly a religious leader; (the Gospels do not report a single word spoken by Jesus against the Roman Government). He told the Jews (Peter) they should pay their taxes to Caesar. Hardly the words of a anti-Roman protagonist, as the Jews groaned under the heavy yoke of taxes heaped upon them by Rome. Pilate was well aware of Jesus’s publicly stated intentions, that He posed no direct threat to local Roman rule. Just another strange Jewish self-proclaimed prophet; a Jewish affair that he really didn’t want to be any part of as his wife had been warned in a dream that he should stay clear of any involvement with Jesus. The Jewish leaders considered Jesus as gaining popularity, believed Him a Hell-bent dangerous heretic out to destroy Judaism and it’s traditions. The Gospels clearly demonstrate that the Jewish leaders had Him in their sights for some time preceding his arrest by the Jewish authorities.
The Emperor Tiberius was ruthless and impatient; if things had gotten out of hand under Pilate, most likely the least retribution Pilate could expect from Tiberius Caesar would be if he were fortunate enough to only be reassigned to some barbarous remote outpost. At Jesus’s trial, the crowd was so worked up, Pilate feared a riot might break out engulfing the entire city. He made five attempts to free Jesus only made much more difficult and frustrating by Jesus’ own refusal to say anything in His own defense! He tried passing the buck to Herod, keeping it under Jewish Jurisdiction, hoping that would solve his problem, but Herod passed that buck right back returning Him to Pilate. Pilate declared Jesus’s innocence on three separate occasions during the trial, and again by allowing the crowd to choose to set him free under a special Passover pardon, but instead they chose Barrabas, a member of the seditious anti-roman Zealot faction arrested for murder; perhaps making him a minor local hero to the citizens of Jerusalem. All attempts having failed, the mob becoming even more violent, finally, Pilate placated the crowd hoping to restore order. He symbolically washes his hands as though that would clear his conscience of the blood-guilt of knowingly sentencing an innocent man to a horrible death. Pagan that he was, he knew of Jesus’s message and miracles, that He was probably no ordinary man, but someone sent by the Jewish God. One is almost tempted to empathize with his predicament. If you read Acts 4:27 you will learn that it was really the Divine Providence of God the Father orchestrating and presiding behind the scenes over the whole procedure from beginning to end. This miraculous intervention in the affairs of men had all been prophesied for centuries in the Old Testament was to fulfill that “Thy Kingdom come; Thy will be done, on the earth as it is in Heaven.” This side of Eternity one can only speculate what ever became of Pontius Pilate.
The Emperor Tiberius was ruthless and impatient; if things had gotten out of hand under Pilate, most likely the least retribution Pilate could expect from Tiberius Caesar would be if he were fortunate enough to only be reassigned to some barbarous remote outpost. At Jesus’s trial, the crowd was so worked up, Pilate feared a riot might break out engulfing the entire city. He made five attempts to free Jesus only made much more difficult and frustrating by Jesus’ own refusal to say anything in His own defense! He tried passing the buck to Herod, keeping it under Jewish Jurisdiction, hoping that would solve his problem, but Herod passed that buck right back returning Him to Pilate. Pilate declared Jesus’s innocence on three separate occasions during the trial, and again by allowing the crowd to choose to set him free under a special Passover pardon, but instead they chose Barrabas, a member of the seditious anti-roman Zealot faction arrested for murder; perhaps making him a minor local hero to the citizens of Jerusalem. All attempts having failed, the mob becoming even more violent, finally, Pilate placated the crowd hoping to restore order. He symbolically washes his hands as though that would clear his conscience of the blood-guilt of knowingly sentencing an innocent man to a horrible death. Pagan that he was, he knew of Jesus’s message and miracles, that He was probably no ordinary man, but someone sent by the Jewish God. One is almost tempted to empathize with his predicament. If you read Acts 4:27 you will learn that it was really the Divine Providence of God the Father orchestrating and presiding behind the scenes over the whole procedure from beginning to end. This miraculous intervention in the affairs of men had all been prophesied for centuries in the Old Testament was to fulfill that “Thy Kingdom come; Thy will be done, on the earth as it is in Heaven.” This side of Eternity one can only speculate what ever became of Pontius Pilate.
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Aloysium
Guest
:twocents:
Empathically speaking, I know what it feels like to be a coward, to give in to evil to preserve what is transient and will succumb to “moth and rust”, and ultimately death.
I don’t see the situation so much as God ochestrating what is the charade of human justice, as it is that He knew what we would do; it was revealed to us so that we may be prepared and know when it happened.
His will is always done, we decide whether we are to play the part of Peter or that of Judas.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Aloysium
You wrote, “His will is always done”.
“First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time. For this I was appointed preacher and apostle (I am speaking the truth, I am not lying), teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.”
I think/believe that even tho “His will is always done”, as you wrote, and with what is written in the bible “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved” that we should still pray for “… Thy Kingdom come, The Will be done on earth as it is in heaven …” just as Jesus, God-Incarnate, taught us when He was asked to “teach us how to pray”, don’t you?
You also wrote, “we decide whether we are to play the part of Peter or that of Judas.”
Do you think that Peter chose to be Peter and that Judas chose to be Judas?
Do you believe what you wrote, “His will is always done” considering that “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved”?
I happen to believe that the “Good News” truly is GOOD NEWS.
By the way, I do not look at Peter and Judas as two “players” in a play but as two human beings and as such, our brothers.
You wrote, “His will is always done”.
“First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time. For this I was appointed preacher and apostle (I am speaking the truth, I am not lying), teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.”
I think/believe that even tho “His will is always done”, as you wrote, and with what is written in the bible “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved” that we should still pray for “… Thy Kingdom come, The Will be done on earth as it is in heaven …” just as Jesus, God-Incarnate, taught us when He was asked to “teach us how to pray”, don’t you?
You also wrote, “we decide whether we are to play the part of Peter or that of Judas.”
Do you think that Peter chose to be Peter and that Judas chose to be Judas?
Do you believe what you wrote, “His will is always done” considering that “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved”?
I happen to believe that the “Good News” truly is GOOD NEWS.
By the way, I do not look at Peter and Judas as two “players” in a play but as two human beings and as such, our brothers.
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Aloysium
Guest
- yes, so that we may participate in the bringing about of His kingdom on earth, at least within ourselves
- yes, free will
- yes, but He allows us the choice; His will includes justice and the shrivelling up of the fig tree that did not produce
- it’s an analogy.
We will ultimately know this wondrous universe to be good, in spite of all the anguish, the pain and the evil. God intervenes to make this happen. I cannot say what Lucifer’s role would have been. Likely it had to do with demonstrating God’s love for us through the incarnation of the Word. In spite of his attempts to sabotage the process, his actions would have led to the very reality he hoped to stop. That’s what I was getting at that God’s will is always done.
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rcwitness
Guest
I agree. Thats an interesting way to look at it.
So you seem to be making the point of the Gospel…that NO ONE is good, we are all destined to remain in sin…UNLESS we turn from our ways. This in some degree demands suffering. Those in possitions who have ‘more’, will be demanded more. Pilate, as far as we know, did not show any signs of belief or repentance. This probably would have been recorded in Acts. However, I definitely believe its posible he could have converted unto salvation before he died.
Michael
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Aloysium
Guest
The hope is that we all do.
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steve53
Guest
“The Jewish leaders considered Jesus as gaining popularity, believed Him a Hell-bent dangerous heretic out to destroy Judaism and it’s traditions. The Gospels clearly demonstrate that the Jewish leaders had Him in their sights for some time preceding his arrest by the Jewish authorities.
The Emperor Tiberius was ruthless and impatient; if things had gotten out of hand under Pilate, most likely the least retribution Pilate could expect from Tiberius Caesar would be if he were fortunate enough to only be reassigned to some barbarous remote outpost.”
Hagan in “Year of the Passover” postulates that at the same Passover Syrian President Lucius Vitellius was due shortly to arrive in Jerusalem. The High Priest wanted Jesus out of the way quick to avoid any possibility of unrest due to Jesus that Vitellius might see.
The Emperor Tiberius was ruthless and impatient; if things had gotten out of hand under Pilate, most likely the least retribution Pilate could expect from Tiberius Caesar would be if he were fortunate enough to only be reassigned to some barbarous remote outpost.”
Hagan in “Year of the Passover” postulates that at the same Passover Syrian President Lucius Vitellius was due shortly to arrive in Jerusalem. The High Priest wanted Jesus out of the way quick to avoid any possibility of unrest due to Jesus that Vitellius might see.
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RPRPsych
Guest
Pilate was the typical “personally opposed but” politician.
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steve53
Guest
Pilate could well have been a cultured man.
The rhetorical question “What is truth?” indicates this.
Also, part of his own fortune went into the remodeling of the amphitheater in Caesarea, according to an inscription found at the site.
The rhetorical question “What is truth?” indicates this.
Also, part of his own fortune went into the remodeling of the amphitheater in Caesarea, according to an inscription found at the site.
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ovenwally74
Guest
Josephus in his work "Antiquities of the Jews Book XVIII Chapter III paragraph 3 - an historical account originally written when memory of Jesus was still fresh in the minds of some of His contemporaries.
Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those that loved him at first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
Insofar as this is a Catholic Forum, I will endeavor to refrain from Doctrinal debates that may confuse practicing Catholics and introduce unneeded controversy as Christianity as a whole is certainly become the focus of much criticism. The basic criticism is that Jesus is not who Christians believe He was and the New Testament is basically a pack of lies introduced and fabricated centuries after his death by a small group looking to promote their own religion amidst many competing ideas and religions extant at that time. Muhammed wrote that Jesus never died at all, but was instead translated bodily into paradise (as Muslims also believe was Muhammed himself.) He wrote that it was Judas who was crucified instead and since there was no crucifixion, there was no resurrection either. Also, that the Old and New testament Scriptures were unreliable and had been corrupted so as not to be able to be believed. His claim does not just dispute Christianity, it erases it altogether. The Apostle Paul emphatically states that if Christ was not resurrected then our faith is in vain and there is no Salvation at all. The Apostle Paul is brought before the Jewish leaders to explain how and why he miraculously healed a beggar born lame. He says:
(Acts 4:10) “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole”.
As much as possible, it is my intention to simply quote or paraphrase Scripture in the plain, simple ordinarily understood meaning as can plainly be derived from reading the text without endeavoring to glean some arcane interpretation or new doctrine. My statement that Jesus’s trial and surrounding events can clearly be understood as Providential from reading Acts 27:4 which I give as a reference so as not to be misunderstood or some meaning assumed that is not suggested by the text. To interpret my meaning as different from the quoted text is certainly the result of not referring to the text.
The basic premise of the best-selling books “the Davinci Code” and “Zealot the life and times of Jesus Christ.” (written by a Muslim) is that the traditional interpretation of the Gospels are not to be believed, and that the book’s authors have uncovered a whole spectrum of new data that begs re-interpretation which not only contradicts, but supersedes what foolish, gullible, Christians have naively been misled to believe for 2,000 years. I have only one answer: “read the New Testament and then decide for yourself.” I believe that if someone will do that honestly and without pre-conception, that the multitude of seemingly insignificant details will lend much credence towards convincing the reader that the Gospels are eye-witness accounts of ordinary events in the daily lives of ordinary people. So many precise details of the Gospels could not possibly be fabricated centuries, or even decades beyond the actual time of occurrence.
Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those that loved him at first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
Insofar as this is a Catholic Forum, I will endeavor to refrain from Doctrinal debates that may confuse practicing Catholics and introduce unneeded controversy as Christianity as a whole is certainly become the focus of much criticism. The basic criticism is that Jesus is not who Christians believe He was and the New Testament is basically a pack of lies introduced and fabricated centuries after his death by a small group looking to promote their own religion amidst many competing ideas and religions extant at that time. Muhammed wrote that Jesus never died at all, but was instead translated bodily into paradise (as Muslims also believe was Muhammed himself.) He wrote that it was Judas who was crucified instead and since there was no crucifixion, there was no resurrection either. Also, that the Old and New testament Scriptures were unreliable and had been corrupted so as not to be able to be believed. His claim does not just dispute Christianity, it erases it altogether. The Apostle Paul emphatically states that if Christ was not resurrected then our faith is in vain and there is no Salvation at all. The Apostle Paul is brought before the Jewish leaders to explain how and why he miraculously healed a beggar born lame. He says:
(Acts 4:10) “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole”.
As much as possible, it is my intention to simply quote or paraphrase Scripture in the plain, simple ordinarily understood meaning as can plainly be derived from reading the text without endeavoring to glean some arcane interpretation or new doctrine. My statement that Jesus’s trial and surrounding events can clearly be understood as Providential from reading Acts 27:4 which I give as a reference so as not to be misunderstood or some meaning assumed that is not suggested by the text. To interpret my meaning as different from the quoted text is certainly the result of not referring to the text.
The basic premise of the best-selling books “the Davinci Code” and “Zealot the life and times of Jesus Christ.” (written by a Muslim) is that the traditional interpretation of the Gospels are not to be believed, and that the book’s authors have uncovered a whole spectrum of new data that begs re-interpretation which not only contradicts, but supersedes what foolish, gullible, Christians have naively been misled to believe for 2,000 years. I have only one answer: “read the New Testament and then decide for yourself.” I believe that if someone will do that honestly and without pre-conception, that the multitude of seemingly insignificant details will lend much credence towards convincing the reader that the Gospels are eye-witness accounts of ordinary events in the daily lives of ordinary people. So many precise details of the Gospels could not possibly be fabricated centuries, or even decades beyond the actual time of occurrence.
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ovenwally74
Guest
Just a cursory study of the Romans reveals one is astonished at their culture and learning.
It is surprising how much they were able to accomplish. The Parthenon still stands today as a monument to their brilliance.
Augustine quotes profusely from Greek and Roman literature, and Dante Alighieri’s “Inferno” features the Roman Poet Virgil as a main character, chosen for his knowledge and sterling moral character. I admire them very much, but empathize that they endured some maniacal and debauched leaders. Josephus describes how the army broke camp, mustered, grouped and formed up for a days march. As an ex military I was extremely impressed, their army was an awesome, grinding machine.
I think if anyone might suppose the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians as an inferior culture should dig deeper and broaden their research.
I am sympathetic to Pilate. He was a man given a large responsibility in a bad situation. He was not chosen Roman Governor without good reason. There is not enough information to fill in all the blanks of his life. Retroactively I wish him well, I hope he met with a good end.
It is surprising how much they were able to accomplish. The Parthenon still stands today as a monument to their brilliance.
Augustine quotes profusely from Greek and Roman literature, and Dante Alighieri’s “Inferno” features the Roman Poet Virgil as a main character, chosen for his knowledge and sterling moral character. I admire them very much, but empathize that they endured some maniacal and debauched leaders. Josephus describes how the army broke camp, mustered, grouped and formed up for a days march. As an ex military I was extremely impressed, their army was an awesome, grinding machine.
I think if anyone might suppose the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians as an inferior culture should dig deeper and broaden their research.
I am sympathetic to Pilate. He was a man given a large responsibility in a bad situation. He was not chosen Roman Governor without good reason. There is not enough information to fill in all the blanks of his life. Retroactively I wish him well, I hope he met with a good end.
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patrick457
Guest
Well, we just don’t know. But some later Christians liked to imagine that he was the good Roman who eventually got the highest praise by becoming a Christian and being martyred for his faith. (Read for example The Paradosis of Pilate with its too-positive portrayal of the guy. It has little to no important information about the historical Pilate, but it does show you how some Christians viewed him.) Which would set him in contrast with Caiaphas and the priests, who were the “bad Jews” who forever remained in darkness.“Calling it your job, don’t make it right, boss.”
Code:Luke, from Cool Hand Luke… This line came into my head at your comment. But I do understand the level of culpability Pilate was faced with. Even Jesus recognized that. But still, washing his hands of the direct intent to crucify Jesus is a far cry from Baptism. We have no indication Pilate sought reconciliation from Jesus. Becoming friends with Herod seems to show otherwise. But as always, we need to remember Jesus is judge of hearts.
Michael
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