Poor Catechesis

[EmergencyOps]

When reading through CAF threads, the phrase “poor Catechesis” comes up regularly. I did a search and am posting four examples out of approximately 700 to 800 that are on CAF:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=73222
The fact that she was raised a Catholic and changed to JW indicates to me that she was poorly educated in her cathechism.

I notice variances in different parishes. CATECHESIS (education of Catholic faith) or lack of catechesis has an impact on the congregants involved.

Catholics are not impeccable. Poor Catechism gets the best of everybody.

JRKH:

For instance the OP was baptized but never fully catechized and initiated. Others may have been the victims of poor catechesis.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=403229&page=4
Well, I think lots of us had the experience of poor catechesis in the 70s. I did as well.

The first quote was regarding Pope Benedict XVI’s cousin. If someone decides to leave the Church or willfully disobey Church teachings, is poor catechesis the standard excuse/scapegoat? As a non-Catholic, I am curious about the Catechismal(sp?) process…who runs it, when it occurs, and how many cradle Catholics feel that their Catechesis was sub-par.

 

[Marie5890]

When reading through CAF threads, the phrase “poor Catechesis” comes up regularly. I did a search and am posting four examples out of approximately 700 to 800 that are on CAF:

The first quote was regarding Pope Benedict XVI’s cousin. If someone decides to leave the Church or willfully disobey Church teachings, is poor catechesis the standard excuse/scapegoat? As a non-Catholic, I am curious about the Catechismal(sp?) process…who runs it, when it occurs, and how many cradle Catholics feel that their Catechesis was sub-par.

You raise a valid question. And it is wrong to scapegoat everyone who leaves the Catholic church as having been poorly catechized. Too easy to fall into that stereo-type…

However, I will say as someone who has come into full communion just a few years ago I do find many of even the very active parishioners at my parish are not very well catechized…

I find myself kind of stunned that I know more about the teachings of the Church then they do.

I think that there are several reasons for this.

But it is a valid statement to say that many Catholics who are faithful Sunday Mass observers have not been well catechized.

 

[graceandglory]

But it is a valid statement to say that many Catholics who are faithful Sunday Mass observers have not been well catechized.

I was one. I went through Catholic school and CCD classes in the seventies and Catholic HS and University in the 80s. When confronted with a very few simple easy to answer accusations by my born-again friends, I had no answers, so I left the Church. I was never taught enough about my faith to defend it. I didn’t even know I could look for an answer. I did go ask my priest a couple of questions I wrote up when I was about 16, but he just blew me off as he blew cigarette smoke in my face. I can’t find anyone my age who I grew up in the church with still practicing their Catholic faith. Those who are of the age to have been my teachers at the time are the most liberal ones still in the church. This is my story, and I’m sticking to it.

 

[twopekinguys]

When reading through CAF threads, the phrase “poor Catechesis” comes up regularly. I did a search and am posting four examples out of approximately 700 to 800 that are on CAF:

The first quote was regarding Pope Benedict XVI’s cousin. If someone decides to leave the Church or willfully disobey Church teachings, is poor catechesis the standard excuse/scapegoat? As a non-Catholic, I am curious about the Catechismal(sp?) process…who runs it, when it occurs, and how many cradle Catholics feel that their Catechesis was sub-par.

Interesting question.

First of all, I don’t think poor catechesis can, or should be used for every person who leaves the Church. Although, that does come into play with a large number of people.

In today’s society, many people tend to look for a church that fits their way of thinking, and not the other way around.

For example, some (not all) protestant denominations have a much more liberal view on abortion or divorce. Instead of trying to live within the teachings of the Church, they move on to another church that isn’t so strict on those teachings, or may not have a stance on the issue at all. They are still going to church, still hearing God’s word, but they don’t have to deal with those issues. Poor catechesis? possible, but not probable.

In every Diocese, there should be an Office of Catechetics. I guess you could compare them to the school board of a public school, or the state board of education. They are the ones responsible for what will be taught and when.

Now, for Catholic children, they have religion class in school, and may attend CCD (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine) classes on a weekly basis in addition to their regular schooling. Especially if they are in public school.

For adults, there is the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults). This is a much more accelerated version, and is usually completed in about 9 months.

In either case, the subject matter, and what is learned depends on the teachers, the curriculum, and the willingness of the student.

 

[Marie5890]

I was one. I went through Catholic school and CCD classes in the seventies and Catholic HS and University in the 80s. When confronted with a very few simple easy to answer accusations by my born-again friends, I had no answers, so I left the Church. I was never taught enough about my faith to defend it. I didn’t even know I could look for an answer. I did go ask my priest a couple of questions I wrote up when I was about 16, but he just blew me off as he blew cigarette smoke in my face. I can’t find anyone my age who I grew up in the church with still practicing their Catholic faith. Those who are of the age to have been my teachers at the time are the most liberal ones still in the church. This is my story, and I’m sticking to it.

Exactly. I think that is one of the negative residuals of Vatican II…(there have been both positive and negative side effects)

One of the strongest “weaknesses” of even faithful Catholics is that they dont really read or know the Bible…It has just not been part of the average Catholic family culture to actually read it.

 

[kib]

The catechesis at my parish growing up was terrible. I went to CCD classes (I think they just called it Catechism when I was very young) for 11 years. I was confirmed not knowing which books were in the new or old testament, let alone why Catholics hold their beliefs to be true. All we did was “learn” from our “Life in the Spirit” workbooks, which were all about our feelings and a bunch of wishy washy unsubstantial garbage.

By the way, I’m a few months shy of 24 so I’m not very old in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Marie5890]

For adults, there is the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults). This is a much more accelerated version, and is usually completed in about 9 months.

In either case, the subject matter, and what is learned depends on the teachers, the curriculum, and the willingness of the student.

I know for me going thru RCIA, I really did learn more about Catholicism thru my own research, even the “nuts and bolts” of the faith if you will. RCIA was more of the …Ummmm…formality they put me thru…

For those who were/are the teachers of RCIA at that time, they pretty much were learning as they went along to teach it.

(I now am a teacher in our RCIA program as they main steering committee knew I had alot of knowledge to share because of the extensive, personal research I did. We also have added a teacher who has been a widow for over 20 years who also has self-catechized over those years, so our program is far more comprehensive and indepth.)

(I dont mean any of that to be a criticism of how the program was as compared to now, just an honest observation. Back then, they really were doing the best they could with what they have. We just happen to have a stronger program now because of the past . )

 

[kib]

One of the strongest “weaknesses” of even faithful Catholics is that they dont really read or know the Bible…It has just not been part of the average Catholic family culture to actually read it.

Exactly. My parents kept a large family bible in our living room as I was growing up, yet we NEVER read it. I have also heard Catholics say that it can be dangerous to read scripture because it can be so easily misunderstood. Well, yes it can but that is why you LEARN about it!!

 

[Marie5890]

Exactly. My parents kept a large family bible in our living room as I was growing up, yet we NEVER read it. I have also heard Catholics say that it can be dangerous to read scripture because it can be so easily misunderstood. Well, yes it can but that is why you LEARN about it!!

LOL. You remind of how my grandmother had this lovely white leather bound Bible that was always visable, but you could tell by the fact the the gilded edges stuck together that is was never read.

And she was a very faithful Catholic. Polish Catholic to the hard core. LOL

 

[kib]

That is what I don’t get. I have 5 bibles, the one I cherish the most is my Catholic study bible that I took with me to bible study every week in college- I wrote notes in it, underlined my favorite verses etc. It is the bible I learned the Word of God from! What good is any bible if it just collects dust!? Get into THE WORD, my friends!

 

[twopekinguys]

I know for me going thru RCIA, I really did learn more about Catholicism thru my own research, even the “nuts and bolts” of the faith if you will. RCIA was more of the …Ummmm…formality they put me thru…

For those who were/are the teachers of RCIA at that time, they pretty much were learning as they went along to teach it.

(I now am a teacher in our RCIA program as they main steering committee knew I had alot of knowledge to share because of the extensive, personal research I did. We also have added a teacher who has been a widow for over 20 years who also has self-catechized over those years, so our program is far more comprehensive and indepth.)

(I dont mean any of that to be a criticism of how the program was as compared to now, just an honest observation. Back then, they really were doing the best they could with what they have. We just happen to have a stronger program now because of the past . )

We have alot in common.

I came into full communion with the Church in 1995, and am now the Lay Director of RCIA for our parish. Small world huh!?!

Our program has progressed by leaps and bounds over the years, and we even have other RCIA programs throughout the Diocese following our lead.

Right now, we have about 25 full time team members involved in the process, excluding guest speakers that come in for special subjects.

One thing we have done is trade priests so to speak. Our pastor does a phenominal explaination Mass for our class, then he will visit another parish to do the same thing, and their pastor may come to talk to ours about Church history, or Canon Law, or whatever his particular specialty is.

What is amazing, is that so many of our team members are “converts”, and have gone through the process. It really helps those in the class, knowing that others have been through what they are going through.

Pray for us, we have 20 in our class this year. Praise the Lord!!

 

[Marie5890]

We have alot in common.

I came into full communion with the Church in 1995, and am now the Lay Director of RCIA for our parish. Small world huh!?!

Our program has progressed by leaps and bounds over the years, and we even have other RCIA programs throughout the Diocese following our lead.

Right now, we have about 25 full time team members involved in the process, excluding guest speakers that come in for special subjects.

One thing we have done is trade priests so to speak. Our pastor does a phenominal explaination Mass for our class, then he will visit another parish to do the same thing, and their pastor may come to talk to ours about Church history, or Canon Law, or whatever his particular specialty is.

What is amazing, is that so many of our team members are “converts”, and have gone through the process. It really helps those in the class, knowing that others have been through what they are going through.

Pray for us, we have 20 in our class this year. Praise the Lord!!

Love those ideas. Thanks for sharing!

20? Praise the Lord, God Bless them and you, and good luck!

We have one, but a bit of, not a challenge but different; he is Jewish but was never a practising Jew.

So he really doesnt even have any real understanding of Christian theology. Period. BUT, he loves to learn and has also taken to doing a lot of his own research away from class.

 

[twopekinguys]

Love those ideas. Thanks for sharing!

20? Praise the Lord, God Bless them and you, and good luck!

We have one, but a bit of, not a challenge but different; he is Jewish but was never a practising Jew.

So he really doesnt even have any real understanding of Christian theology. Period. BUT, he loves to learn and has also taken to doing a lot of his own research away from class.

One is a blessing also. You will be in our prayers.

We have a Buddhist this year, and had a Muslim a couple of years ago. What wonderful stories they have, and what a wonderful desire to learn.

We even had one of our RCIA alumni ordained to the Holy Priesthood in 2008. Talk about a blessing!!

 

[EmergencyOps]

However, I will say as someone who has come into full communion just a few years ago I do find many of even the very active parishioners at my parish are not very well catechized…

I find myself kind of stunned that I know more about the teachings of the Church then they do.

Congrats on the recent events. When I was beginning RCIA in Baton Rouge, the priest told the congregation not to feel threatened by the converts’ burning desire for Catholic teaching, but to embrace them. I was amazed at how little knowledge of her own faith my CCD’d wife had.

In every Diocese, there should be an Office of Catechetics. I guess you could compare them to the school board of a public school, or the state board of education. They are the ones responsible for what will be taught and when.

Now, for Catholic children, they have religion class in school, and may attend CCD (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine) classes on a weekly basis in addition to their regular schooling. Especially if they are in public school.

For adults, there is the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults). This is a much more accelerated version, and is usually completed in about 9 months.

In either case, the subject matter, and what is learned depends on the teachers, the curriculum, and the willingness of the student.

Thanks for the great explanation. I have been through half of RCIA but couldn’t finish…and learned a lot.

 

[Incomplete]

I’m a cradle Catholic who grew up with incredibly poor catechesis. I learned as an adult when I began to question the existence of God, and decided to start exploring the various Christian churches. I now consider myself hardcore Catholic.

Though we can’t, of course, blame poor catechesis for everyone who leaves the Church, I know several who have left the church and not one truly understands Catholicism. For example, there is a family member who is now looking for other churches and, as she tells me where she disagrees and I respond with, “but that’s not what the Church teaches” she shrugs, makes it plain she doesn’t want to “go there”, and states that there are a lot of other reasons.

You’ll see it here a lot. I read through a thread started by somebody who claims to have been Catholic for 42 years before leaving the Church, but is full of misunderstanding about Church teachings.

 

[twopekinguys]

I’m a cradle Catholic who grew up with incredibly poor catechesis. I learned as an adult when I began to question the existence of God, and decided to start exploring the various Christian churches. I now consider myself hardcore Catholic.

Though we can’t, of course, blame poor catechesis for everyone who leaves the Church, I know several who have left the church and not one truly understands Catholicism. For example, there is a family member who is now looking for other churches and, as she tells me where she disagrees and I respond with, “but that’s not what the Church teaches” she shrugs, makes it plain she doesn’t want to “go there”, and states that there are a lot of other reasons.

You’ll see it here a lot. I read through a thread started by somebody who claims to have been Catholic for 42 years before leaving the Church, but is full of misunderstanding about Church teachings.

You make an excellent point.

Something our RCIA does, is invite everyone (Catholic or not) to RCIA.

We are blessed each year with people who are “cradle” Catholics, that come to learn more about their faith. It works out to be a kind of renewal or refresher course for them.

I can’t tell you how many of these cradle Catholics have told us how much they have learned by sitting in on the classes. Their responses have ranged from “Wow, I didn’t know that.” or “Boy , was I wrong about that.” Not to mention, many of the older cradle Catholics can, and do provide a wonderful perspective for those going through the program.

Maybe this is something your family member might be willing to explore. Check with your RCIA program.

As a side note, our program puts all of our presentations on DVD for those that have missed a class, or for those in the parish that might want to brush up on a subject. (maybe they offer something similar)

 

[twopekinguys]

Congrats on the recent events. When I was beginning RCIA in Baton Rouge, the priest told the congregation not to feel threatened by the converts’ burning desire for Catholic teaching, but to embrace them. I was amazed at how little knowledge of her own faith my CCD’d wife had.

Thanks for the great explanation. I have been through half of RCIA but couldn’t finish…and learned a lot.

Glad we could help.

 

[apricot_yogurt]

This is from my blog:

“*I want you to imagine a magnificent painting. The artist is gifted beyond words, the brush strokes detailed. Let’s imagine that the Catholic Church is a painting. The colours are rich and deep. The subject poignant, yet joyful. The characters -Our lady in a prominent position -radiating love-her beautiful gown. He gaze is turned upon Jesus -his eyes painted in such a way that they draw you towards him. So much love and peace and suffering and freedom contained in those eyes. You cannot help but stop and look. In the background-saints and martyrs to inspire us by their example. Other things too-unique to Catholic life. An intricate monstance containing the Blessed Sacrament. Precious metal chalices filled with the precious Blood. Kneeling children in Adoration.
What then if you took this picture and destroyed it-stamped it underfoot,tore it up, made a mockery of it. You’d hope that people would protest. You’d hope that Catholics would protest.
Imagine then that this destruction was more subtle. Imagine that the image was adjusted a bit here, altered a bit there. Imagine some well meaning soul wanted to make the image more child-friendly. Imagine some catholics went along with this. They took the image of Christ and diminished him-cartoonised him. People looked at this new Jesus and were not bothered. He was child friendly after all.
Over the years Our Lady’s image was removed altogether. Some people thought she was old-fashioned. Her image become grey with dust. No one thought to clean her.
The saints and martyrs were painted over with rainbows and fluffy bunnies. No one thought children should see such disturbing things. And so old fashioned too, with their dark clothes-their robes and their habits-who wears such things anyway?
The Blessed Sacrament in the monstrance-someone painted over this with a loaf of bread. Children can’t be expected to understand such things. This was helping children to understand wasn’t it? And the chalices? Replaced with a glass of Merlot, because children don’t get this old-fashioned stuff do they? And it helps them to understand.
Later still the kneeling children were replaced. Some lounged against pillars, some were on beanbags, some children were performing a dance for the audience, or the congregation as it used to be called. You can worship in any way you please, they said, no longer bound by the rigours and constraints of the past. This was welcomed. It wasn’t fair they said to make children kneel. There’s no need for it these days.
Let’s go back and look at this new picture. Do you like it? My whole peer group looked at this picture. They didn’t like it, they thought it was stupid. They had never been told about the Masterpiece. They rejected such a muddle. No one wanted to hang this on their wall.
“Do you know about the picture?”, people would say to them. “Yes”, they replied, “but we didn’t like it, not on our walls will this picture hang.”
For a tiny few of us, we took this picture home, because that is what we were given. Some of us had parents who told us where the Masterpiece was. And so we set to work. We labourously scrape away the old layers of paint. We have to be careful-so entertwined are the layers, we don’t scrape off the original. Occasionally, we unearth some long-forgotten remnant-a rosary, a monstrance, a long forgotton lady, beautiful, and we cry, “Why did no one tell us about this!?”
We work at it. We ask a half-remembered God to aid us. We ask a lady, beautiful as the sun to hold our hand as we scrape, and scrape away the desecration of our heritage. *”

 

[Incomplete]

You make an excellent point.

Something our RCIA does, is invite everyone (Catholic or not) to RCIA.

We are blessed each year with people who are “cradle” Catholics, that come to learn more about their faith. It works out to be a kind of renewal or refresher course for them.

I can’t tell you how many of these cradle Catholics have told us how much they have learned by sitting in on the classes. Their responses have ranged from “Wow, I didn’t know that.” or “Boy , was I wrong about that.” Not to mention, many of the older cradle Catholics can, and do provide a wonderful perspective for those going through the program.

Maybe this is something your family member might be willing to explore. Check with your RCIA program.

As a side note, our program puts all of our presentations on DVD for those that have missed a class, or for those in the parish that might want to brush up on a subject. (maybe they offer something similar)

Sadly, I’m certain the family member wouldn’t be open to this. She’s not open to conversation at all. She has a lot of anger at the Church, and I’m pretty certain I know what the issue is. I know just the priest who could help her, too, but she’s just not open. I’d appreciate it if you’d remember her in your prayers, along with my dad, who at age 80 recently left the Church, also with lack of understanding.

It’s a great idea to invite everyone to RCIA. The church I attend also invites Catholics, and we have several of them who attend, of all age ranges. I enrolled last year to make certain that I was understanding the Church correctly. Though I was, the priest has a way of putting things that added layers to what I already knew.

I actually belong to another parish (long story) and the CCD program there is as poor as mine was. My daughter completed it and was confirmed last year. I’ve taught her a lot, but to continue her learning, she wanted to take the same program I did last year, so I’m re-taking it with her. She’s 17 and the youngest there.

She invited a friend (age 18) who, last August, told me he didn’t know if he believed in God or not. Now he is talking to the priest about joining the Church.

THAT’S the power of a good program.

 

[Incomplete]

This is from my blog:

“*I want you to imagine a magnificent painting. The artist is gifted beyond words, the brush strokes detailed. Let’s imagine that the Catholic Church is a painting. The colours are rich and deep. The subject poignant, yet joyful. The characters -Our lady in a prominent position -radiating love-her beautiful gown. He gaze is turned upon Jesus -his eyes painted in such a way that they draw you towards him. So much love and peace and suffering and freedom contained in those eyes. You cannot help but stop and look. In the background-saints and martyrs to inspire us by their example. Other things too-unique to Catholic life. An intricate monstance containing the Blessed Sacrament. Precious metal chalices filled with the precious Blood. Kneeling children in Adoration.
What then if you took this picture and destroyed it-stamped it underfoot,tore it up, made a mockery of it. You’d hope that people would protest. You’d hope that Catholics would protest.
Imagine then that this destruction was more subtle. Imagine that the image was adjusted a bit here, altered a bit there. Imagine some well meaning soul wanted to make the image more child-friendly. Imagine some catholics went along with this. They took the image of Christ and diminished him-cartoonised him. People looked at this new Jesus and were not bothered. He was child friendly after all.
Over the years Our Lady’s image was removed altogether. Some people thought she was old-fashioned. Her image become grey with dust. No one thought to clean her.
The saints and martyrs were painted over with rainbows and fluffy bunnies. No one thought children should see such disturbing things. And so old fashioned too, with their dark clothes-their robes and their habits-who wears such things anyway?
The Blessed Sacrament in the monstrance-someone painted over this with a loaf of bread. Children can’t be expected to understand such things. This was helping children to understand wasn’t it? And the chalices? Replaced with a glass of Merlot, because children don’t get this old-fashioned stuff do they? And it helps them to understand.
Later still the kneeling children were replaced. Some lounged against pillars, some were on beanbags, some children were performing a dance for the audience, or the congregation as it used to be called. You can worship in any way you please, they said, no longer bound by the rigours and constraints of the past. This was welcomed. It wasn’t fair they said to make children kneel. There’s no need for it these days.
Let’s go back and look at this new picture. Do you like it? My whole peer group looked at this picture. They didn’t like it, they thought it was stupid. They had never been told about the Masterpiece. They rejected such a muddle. No one wanted to hang this on their wall.
“Do you know about the picture?”, people would say to them. “Yes”, they replied, “but we didn’t like it, not on our walls will this picture hang.”
For a tiny few of us, we took this picture home, because that is what we were given. Some of us had parents who told us where the Masterpiece was. And so we set to work. We labourously scrape away the old layers of paint. We have to be careful-so entertwined are the layers, we don’t scrape off the original. Occasionally, we unearth some long-forgotten remnant-a rosary, a monstrance, a long forgotton lady, beautiful, and we cry, “Why did no one tell us about this!?”
We work at it. We ask a half-remembered God to aid us. We ask a lady, beautiful as the sun to hold our hand as we scrape, and scrape away the desecration of our heritage. *”

This is moving.