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misericordie
Guest
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misericordie
Guest
The issue here is not one of subjectivity. It regards the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, not FEELINGS
When RAP is inserted into the Mass: just to attract a few, it becomes a degrated form of entertainment
Entertainment is what the Mass is NOT
If a friar priest wants to do street preaching which is a great thing, as many Saints did, such as Saint Francis of Assisi, and Saint Anthony of Padua (both Franciscan) let him do so. However, turning the Mass into a popularity contest is totally not cool
Rather, is is quite an act of disobedience to the Holy Father, and documents of the Holy See. Why is it that some people want to create an image of Jesus as social worker?:tsktsk: Mass is not what we FEEL is cool, but is what it is in an objective way: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. For some reason it is hard for me to imagine the Blessed Mother, the Beloved disciple, and Mary Magdalene, in Hip Hop style dancing on Mount Calvary. If the Holy Sacrifice is Calvary all over again, and it is, then we should not be rapin and zapin, in satin in Mass:dancing:
When RAP is inserted into the Mass: just to attract a few, it becomes a degrated form of entertainment Entertainment is what the Mass is NOT If a friar priest wants to do street preaching which is a great thing, as many Saints did, such as Saint Francis of Assisi, and Saint Anthony of Padua (both Franciscan) let him do so. However, turning the Mass into a popularity contest is totally not cool Rather, is is quite an act of disobedience to the Holy Father, and documents of the Holy See. Why is it that some people want to create an image of Jesus as social worker?:tsktsk: Mass is not what we FEEL is cool, but is what it is in an objective way: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. For some reason it is hard for me to imagine the Blessed Mother, the Beloved disciple, and Mary Magdalene, in Hip Hop style dancing on Mount Calvary. If the Holy Sacrifice is Calvary all over again, and it is, then we should not be rapin and zapin, in satin in Mass:dancing:
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karisue
Guest
I don’t think Fr. Stan raps during Mass.
Furthermore, here’s a little something to think about. Kids are going to listen to hip hop because that is what is popular. Would you rather have them listening to Stan Fortuna or Eminem? He is using a medium that kids are interested in and relate to to tell them about Jesus. How does this destroy the dignity of the priesthood? He is not compromising the Sacraments, the Mass, or orthodoxy when he does this. The reality is that we can wag fingers at kids all day long, telling them that the music they like stinks, and you know, that is NOT going to help kids grow in love of Jesus. (BTW, this is what kids perceive that adults do.) So whose approach is right: the effective one, or the ineffective one? If one can be effective AND orthodox, what’s the problem?
I also find it really sad that anyone would say something so horribly disparaging about a priest, esp. publicly here. I was taught as a child that we should NEVER say bad things about a priest by name like that. It insults Jesus Himself.
Furthermore, here’s a little something to think about. Kids are going to listen to hip hop because that is what is popular. Would you rather have them listening to Stan Fortuna or Eminem? He is using a medium that kids are interested in and relate to to tell them about Jesus. How does this destroy the dignity of the priesthood? He is not compromising the Sacraments, the Mass, or orthodoxy when he does this. The reality is that we can wag fingers at kids all day long, telling them that the music they like stinks, and you know, that is NOT going to help kids grow in love of Jesus. (BTW, this is what kids perceive that adults do.) So whose approach is right: the effective one, or the ineffective one? If one can be effective AND orthodox, what’s the problem?
I also find it really sad that anyone would say something so horribly disparaging about a priest, esp. publicly here. I was taught as a child that we should NEVER say bad things about a priest by name like that. It insults Jesus Himself.
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yinekka
Guest
I have heard Fr Stan Fortuna speak on Catholic Answers Radio and he was very orthodox. I have heard him give a sermon during Mass and it was a fantastic sermon but it raised the young congregation to such a pitch of excitement I wondered if they would consider the rest of the Mass an anticlimax. I feel that the talk would have been better delivered outside of Mass.
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Disillusioned
Guest
The thread is not some personal attack-others have grasped that it is about the effect of using compromising and compromised music if you are a priest.I have worse in my country-no even bothers to sing me rap music, but they tell me the football results and use jokes instead of preaching a sermon.As observed, there is a point where irrespective of the man being a priest, if his liturgy is filled with these things he is disgracing his holy vocation.There is also a canonical right that the laity can either complain privately to the priest himself and that will involve criticism or very carefully inform the bishop and let the real authorities deal further. To anyone who keeps telling me that what I have seen over the years instils reverence in anyone from babes in arms to babes in jeans, I would record that leakage and lapsation in our English church is going higher and higher. The schools don’t teach them about the mass and singing rap music and telling jokes won’t either.If someone tells me about World Youth Day, I observe that it was not all that the cock-eyed optimists made of it, the Catholic Woodstock,it lost vast amounts of money and bankrupt people.Now where is the future in all that ?
The South Bronx is the South Bronx but The Church used to be universal!
The South Bronx is the South Bronx but The Church used to be universal!
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misericordie
Guest
Is there such a thing as “holy rap”? We are talking about the MASS. A priest who is just one of the homeboys can rap, dance merengue (though I thought they are supposed to leave the pleasures of wordliness once they become ordained or professed) salsa, or the macarena, OUTSIDE of Mass. Otherwise they can preach from the rooftops, or dance the hussle all they want: I am speaking IN GENERAL of the PRIESTHOOD.:dancing:
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MichelleTherese
Guest
I don’t think we are talking about the Mass here. We are discussing Father Stan Fortuna’s music. There’s a difference. No, the Mass should not be profaned and turned into a song-and-dance show. But I think it’s ok to sing cultural music during the music parts of the Mass.
However, this thread isn’t about the Mass. It’s about this holy Priest’s music.
However, this thread isn’t about the Mass. It’s about this holy Priest’s music.
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Disillusioned
Guest
Wait a minute- we are fast and loose.If you are a Catholic priest, you possess character, you are what you are, because you offer the Mass and there is no separation.That is why if a priest abuses people, it is such an horrendous sin.So on a slightly less ethical and moral plane, you cannot separate the man and his music either. Priests who in England pose on calendars in the manner of model hunks even though they say it’s for charity are disgracing their divine character.Two of these wrongs will not make the right.
People like Father Stan should stay musicians…in the end you must argue the universality and culturally normative and not give up the Mass in favour of music.
England probably has far worse than Stan Fortuna.We have an utterly disobedient Franciscan (what is it about them ?) who took it into his head to tour churches strumming a guitar with a pair of warbling nuns at each side of him.They sing Abba songs "Thank you for the music the songs I’m singing " Whether at the verse about the girl with golden hair, he dons a suitable wig on his tonsured pate, who knows ? He was told to stop by his superiors and took not a blind bit of notice
Cat Stevens-his Muslim faith meant enough to him that he gave up his music.I don’t think priests should become so involved-maybe that’s what led to Jesuit Schutte leaving.In which case, he made a wise decision and he was not morally compromised. Francis of Assisi was never a priest by the way.
The line between offering the Mass and putting on a performance is to be carefully discerned.If you hear a man who puts his vocation down to wanting to stage-manage all those lovely ceremonies, be careful.Jesus had great disdain for the hypocrite priests and His word derived from actor.The Mass and our Faith is not a matter of acting and star quality, though you’ll soon come across clerics and even religious who would have it so.
They’re usually not in mainline Roman churches now but if faith be a mask we put on and take off, faith is worthless.Truths are an acid test, taste often does not reconcile…
People like Father Stan should stay musicians…in the end you must argue the universality and culturally normative and not give up the Mass in favour of music.
England probably has far worse than Stan Fortuna.We have an utterly disobedient Franciscan (what is it about them ?) who took it into his head to tour churches strumming a guitar with a pair of warbling nuns at each side of him.They sing Abba songs "Thank you for the music the songs I’m singing " Whether at the verse about the girl with golden hair, he dons a suitable wig on his tonsured pate, who knows ? He was told to stop by his superiors and took not a blind bit of notice
Cat Stevens-his Muslim faith meant enough to him that he gave up his music.I don’t think priests should become so involved-maybe that’s what led to Jesuit Schutte leaving.In which case, he made a wise decision and he was not morally compromised. Francis of Assisi was never a priest by the way.
The line between offering the Mass and putting on a performance is to be carefully discerned.If you hear a man who puts his vocation down to wanting to stage-manage all those lovely ceremonies, be careful.Jesus had great disdain for the hypocrite priests and His word derived from actor.The Mass and our Faith is not a matter of acting and star quality, though you’ll soon come across clerics and even religious who would have it so.
They’re usually not in mainline Roman churches now but if faith be a mask we put on and take off, faith is worthless.Truths are an acid test, taste often does not reconcile…
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misericordie
Guest
I am sorry, i just cannot picture priests (or religious) dancin and a rappin in their habits. i don’t think that’s the way a priest or any catholic can bring a young person to God: by imitating their behavior. If that were the case should a priest sleep on the streets to bring the homeless back to church, only after hanging out all night with them on the benches(just using allegory in this case)?
The ONE way to bring souls to God is by preaching (without musical theatrics) the truth in kindness, love and tradition.
Code:
If I want to convert a pagan music band, should i then first become pagan and imitate their lingo?
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thann
Guest
There is only one style of music I cannot stand and it is rap.
That being said, I don’t care for Father Stan’s rap music, but, hey, he didn’t write it for me. He wrote it to reach a specific audience, and he is successful.
The other music he does, the jazz, is rather nice and well done.
In case anyone wants to check out the “questionable lyrics,” here is a link to lyrics for all of his songs.
francescoproductions.com/lyrics/lyrics.html
'thann
That being said, I don’t care for Father Stan’s rap music, but, hey, he didn’t write it for me. He wrote it to reach a specific audience, and he is successful.
The other music he does, the jazz, is rather nice and well done.
In case anyone wants to check out the “questionable lyrics,” here is a link to lyrics for all of his songs.
francescoproductions.com/lyrics/lyrics.html
'thann
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jp2fan
Guest
Sure, why not? It’d be great for his humility and solidarity with the poor in any case.
jp2fan
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misericordie
Guest
:dancing: I could picture it now: a rapper priest, rappin’ and the crowd just snappin. People moving hips, side to side, don’t worry, this is sly. Tank tops, hip hop, no matter what, lets spin the top. Jesus rapped, played ball don’t leave him or you fall.
These are my own words, but maybe Christian rap*I am speaking in general) sounds like this. If it does, how can it convert?:hmmm:
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Iohannes
Guest
What kids need to learn today is not rock and roll, rap or any other hip hop styles in Mass. They need to learn the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary during Mass. How is worldly hip hop teaching kids to learn the Sacrifice of Calvary. This also bring up the problem of lifeteen. They seem to have rock and roll entertainment Masses. How is that suppose to re-present the Sacrifice of Calvary?
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MichelleTherese
Guest
It sure is easy to knock someone behind their back.
I highly suggest that you guys take a look at the CFR homepage and drop them a letter or phone call. Ask them, “How is Fr. Stan Fortuna’s music helping kids? What kind of results is his rapping having on bringing kids into the Church?” Rather then sit here and knock Fr. Fortuna and saying, “This rap music isn’t going to draw anyone into the Church” why don’t you do some homework and see if what he is doing is working or not? It’s not hard to do. Here’s the website:
franciscanfriars.com/
Here’s the contact info:
Fr. Luke Mary Fletcher, C.F.R.
St. Joseph Friary
523 W.142 St.
New York, NY 10031
(212) 281-4355
Have at it. If you’ve enough energy to start up an entire thread just to rail against the man then you should have enough energy to find the real facts about his minstry. If his music is so utterly worthless and such a disgrace then the facts and figures will point it out. He’ll be having an impact on no one. But if he’s harvesting fruits (i.e. souls for Christ) then maybe you should quit complaining and start thanking God.
In Christ,
-Michelle
P.S. Remember, this is about culture, not Pagans or other godless people. Father Stan is reaching out to a specific culture. You can’t force White Upper Middle Class culture on everyone, everywhere. It smacks of ethnocentricity and “I’m better then you.”
I highly suggest that you guys take a look at the CFR homepage and drop them a letter or phone call. Ask them, “How is Fr. Stan Fortuna’s music helping kids? What kind of results is his rapping having on bringing kids into the Church?” Rather then sit here and knock Fr. Fortuna and saying, “This rap music isn’t going to draw anyone into the Church” why don’t you do some homework and see if what he is doing is working or not? It’s not hard to do. Here’s the website:
franciscanfriars.com/
Here’s the contact info:
Fr. Luke Mary Fletcher, C.F.R.
St. Joseph Friary
523 W.142 St.
New York, NY 10031
(212) 281-4355
Have at it. If you’ve enough energy to start up an entire thread just to rail against the man then you should have enough energy to find the real facts about his minstry. If his music is so utterly worthless and such a disgrace then the facts and figures will point it out. He’ll be having an impact on no one. But if he’s harvesting fruits (i.e. souls for Christ) then maybe you should quit complaining and start thanking God.
In Christ,
-Michelle
P.S. Remember, this is about culture, not Pagans or other godless people. Father Stan is reaching out to a specific culture. You can’t force White Upper Middle Class culture on everyone, everywhere. It smacks of ethnocentricity and “I’m better then you.”
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Jehanne_Darc
Guest
Dear Disillusioned et al.
I have read through this thread and looked at the PHAT mass link given by a participant on this thread as an example of the sort of thing you were complaining about.
Take a look at the link I re posted below. The fourth or fifth video on the page is entitled PHATMASS.
It is important to remember that changing the mass from what is prescribed by the Church is bad, but having a rap session for the greater glory of God is not necessarily bad. Though I would probably leave a room that had that music in it, I did admire the beautiful mass that the youth had at the end of their prais and worship with that awful music.
Maybe that music is to Chant what Goya, Dali, Escher are to Michael Angelo. Different, but they still have their own beauty that some may not discern readily.
phatmass.com/_video/index.php
I have read through this thread and looked at the PHAT mass link given by a participant on this thread as an example of the sort of thing you were complaining about.
Take a look at the link I re posted below. The fourth or fifth video on the page is entitled PHATMASS.
It is important to remember that changing the mass from what is prescribed by the Church is bad, but having a rap session for the greater glory of God is not necessarily bad. Though I would probably leave a room that had that music in it, I did admire the beautiful mass that the youth had at the end of their prais and worship with that awful music.
Maybe that music is to Chant what Goya, Dali, Escher are to Michael Angelo. Different, but they still have their own beauty that some may not discern readily.
phatmass.com/_video/index.php
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