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Tantum_ergo
Guest
And (to put things in context). . .when the Pope was a young man (younger than, say, 35). . .there was a much higher percentage of Catholics who attended weekly Mass, received the sacraments, and participated in the faith.
So the person who was coming from a situation where there was not that sort of practice stood out. There was a huge likelihood that these were the people whose families, or they themselves, were in the early ‘rebellion’ stages not just against The Catholic Church but against Christianity in general and were just ‘going through the motions’ but would very likely soon stop practicing the faith altogether.
NOW. . .when the Pope sees people coming to him from families where the faith has not been practiced but requesting the sacrament for themselves or their children. . .they are not ‘going into’ rebellion but actually ‘coming out of’ rebellion for the most part. They’re on their way ‘back’. … and they have a much greater chance of ‘continuing’ than those people did back when Benedict was young.
So of **course **given the huge change in circumstances it makes sense for Benedict, in a pastoral sense, to see these people as having ‘a flicker of desire’. . .whereas 40 years ago, the vast majority of those who were coming in ‘asking’ but having ‘no visible or expressed intent to practice the faith in future’ were on their way ‘out’ of the faith, and thus there really was little or no hope that they would practice once they had the sacraments. . .and, since once they have been ‘practicing Catholics’ in some way ONCE, their rejection or lack of practice becomes a much more weighty issue regarding their ultimate salvation and this was the reason to (in charity) deny them.
It isn’t that Benedict has ‘changed’. He is actually doing exactly what he did ‘then’. . .he is watchful for the individual person, but noting that whereas “then”, lack of practice ‘before’ pretty much guaranteed lack of practice after, but today, no such ‘guarantee’ can be assumed, and thus, a request is most often a ‘flicker of desire’ rather than the previous ‘smoldering of rebellion.’
So the person who was coming from a situation where there was not that sort of practice stood out. There was a huge likelihood that these were the people whose families, or they themselves, were in the early ‘rebellion’ stages not just against The Catholic Church but against Christianity in general and were just ‘going through the motions’ but would very likely soon stop practicing the faith altogether.
NOW. . .when the Pope sees people coming to him from families where the faith has not been practiced but requesting the sacrament for themselves or their children. . .they are not ‘going into’ rebellion but actually ‘coming out of’ rebellion for the most part. They’re on their way ‘back’. … and they have a much greater chance of ‘continuing’ than those people did back when Benedict was young.
So of **course **given the huge change in circumstances it makes sense for Benedict, in a pastoral sense, to see these people as having ‘a flicker of desire’. . .whereas 40 years ago, the vast majority of those who were coming in ‘asking’ but having ‘no visible or expressed intent to practice the faith in future’ were on their way ‘out’ of the faith, and thus there really was little or no hope that they would practice once they had the sacraments. . .and, since once they have been ‘practicing Catholics’ in some way ONCE, their rejection or lack of practice becomes a much more weighty issue regarding their ultimate salvation and this was the reason to (in charity) deny them.
It isn’t that Benedict has ‘changed’. He is actually doing exactly what he did ‘then’. . .he is watchful for the individual person, but noting that whereas “then”, lack of practice ‘before’ pretty much guaranteed lack of practice after, but today, no such ‘guarantee’ can be assumed, and thus, a request is most often a ‘flicker of desire’ rather than the previous ‘smoldering of rebellion.’
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rlg94086
Guest
From the perspective of someone on the catechetical front lines, I somewhat agree. We still have a lot of twice-a-year Catholics and/or “cultural” Catholics, who show up for Baptism of their child at birth (or at least while they are an infant…most of the time) and at 2nd grade CCD for First Communion. The kids are usually as clueless about our faith as their parents (I know that sounds harsh, but it is often true). I look at this as a great opportunity for those kids to be exposed to the faith and a chance to reintroduce the faith to the parents…if you can get in front of them.
I know in our parish, one of my fellow catechists converted (from Mormonism) after his first child went through First Communion. His wife was not a regular church-goer, but now the whole family goes weekly. On the other hand, our catechetical director told a mother that the child had to go to Mass during the year leading up to First Communion. She did…and afterwards, the whole family went back to “normal” and stopped going.
So, it may be a difference between “rebellion” and “apathy.” But, the way I see it, even a flicker (cultural requirement of the Sacraments for the kids) may be the way the Holy Spirit is working in that child/family.
Pray for those who don’t know their faith. The Holy Spirit doesn’t abandom them. He still calls them back to the Church. Hopefully, they will soften their hearts and return.
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mark_a
Guest
This certainly seems to be the most pastoral postion a pope could take.
Many apathetic Catholics will one day need to take another look at their faith. Harsh exclusion from the sacraments will certainly repel these folks if and when that time comes.
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NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
Part of that comes from the duties of the office of Pope. Popes are expected to take a more public pastoral position than say the Office of Inquisition.
No Catholic should wish to “repel” or push for “exclusion” of other Catholics. If a Catholic is “apathetic” or not depends on a personal point of view.
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rlg94086
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Can you elaborate on that? I’m not sure I know what you mean. Are you saying that the “apathetic Catholic” is not really apathetic…that they just appear to be? I mean, I certainly don’t know an individual’s heart, but apathy seems pretty evident to me based on people’s actions. Certainly, when someone doesn’t come to Mass, doesn’t instruct their children in the faith and/or take them to Mass, etc. is putting their apathy on display.
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NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
But as you say, we do not know their heart. And while mass is one part of Catholic life, it is not the entire part of it. I am referring to the Benedictine teachings on faith through works. In that the Church and Mass is often not a brick and mortar building but inside each of us. Other parts of fair disagreement could come from mass styles (we all know that by reading parts of CAF
).Also, people go through many stages in spirituality, some of it may come from one parish style or other reasons. It is human nature to be apathic about some things at some times of your lives.
When I come across people who may be apathetic, turning them away is still the worst thing that can be done. If you turn them away at a young age or sometime during youth, you are giving up on them very early on which does not serve either party.
It is good to continue to welcome and show hospitality to everyone, including this case. Without warm hospitality any type of coming together on similarities is often lost.
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rlg94086
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Exactly. I’m not saying they are condemned to hell due to their apathy, because it isn’t a matter of judging their hearts. If a person isn’t apathetic in regards to their Catholic faith, they are either devout - in which they would be at Mass every Sunday because they understand that it is a precept of the Church - or they are apostate - firmly reject the Church. So, when someone brings children in for preparation for First Communion and they don’t know anything about their faith and haven’t been to Mass, I am making the logical and charitable assumption that their parents are apathetic, as opposed to apostate. After all, if they are apostates, they wouldn’t be bringing their kids to the Sacraments.But as you say, we do not know their heart. And while mass is one part of Catholic life, it is not the entire part of it. I am referring to the Benedictine teachings on faith through works. In that the Church and Mass is often not a brick and mortar building but inside each of us. Other parts of fair disagreement could come from mass styles (we all know that by reading parts of CAF
Also, people go through many stages in spirituality, some of it may come from one parish style or other reasons.** It is human nature to be apathic about some things at some times of your lives**.
Here, we agree completely. You don’t water down the faith, but you do welcome them with hospitality. As I said, it is a great opportunity to share the faith with these children. The Holy Spirit does the rest by hopefully touching their hearts and the hearts of their parents.
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turtle18
Guest
Our local Catholic newspaper interpreted this statement by the Pope that he might allow divorced and remarried Catholics to receive Communion and that he might allow married priests.
Someone gives you an inch and they will take 1,000 miles…everytime.
Someone gives you an inch and they will take 1,000 miles…everytime.
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rlg94086
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tabsie3210
Guest
Well, the Catholic Church does allow married priests in one regard - any married Anglican/Episcopelian priest who becomes disillusioned with the faith and wishes to join the Catholic Church may remain married and have kids and so forth. And I think I read somewhere that Eastern Rite Catholic priests are allowed to marry, but I’m not entirely sure. But refraining from marriage is hardly a horrible thing.
As for the whole “apathy” thing, my father is a devout believer, but he doesn’t attend Mass because first of all, his second wife divorced him (after trying to kidnap his kids and have him institutionalized, saying he was insane), and even the nuns at his church said, “You need to get rid of that woman, she’s evil.” No kidding there. But he re-married, to my mother (a little Jewish girl, of all things), and accepted that he couldn’t receive Communion anymore. Second of all, now that he’s had surgery for cancer, his legs aren’t right anymore, and he cannot walk, so attending Mass would be painful for him. He does view the televised Mass every Sunday, he believes in God, and he wants nothing better than to make amends.
Unfortunately, the distance between himself and the physical Church (not the faith, he’s always had that) actually drove me away from the faith for a while. Happily, I had a nervous breakdown that brought me back into the fold.
I think apathy is more like, “Yeah, I believe, can I go watch TV now?” My priest calls the apathetic C&E Catholicss (they show up for Christmas and Easter and that’s it). Then there are people who are strugglers, like me, who keep making bad choices but want to make good ones, and then there are people like my father, who know what good choices are but have made bad ones and accept just punishment for them as part of their mistake. So, eh, I talk too much. Blah.
As for the whole “apathy” thing, my father is a devout believer, but he doesn’t attend Mass because first of all, his second wife divorced him (after trying to kidnap his kids and have him institutionalized, saying he was insane), and even the nuns at his church said, “You need to get rid of that woman, she’s evil.” No kidding there. But he re-married, to my mother (a little Jewish girl, of all things), and accepted that he couldn’t receive Communion anymore. Second of all, now that he’s had surgery for cancer, his legs aren’t right anymore, and he cannot walk, so attending Mass would be painful for him. He does view the televised Mass every Sunday, he believes in God, and he wants nothing better than to make amends.
Unfortunately, the distance between himself and the physical Church (not the faith, he’s always had that) actually drove me away from the faith for a while. Happily, I had a nervous breakdown that brought me back into the fold.
I think apathy is more like, “Yeah, I believe, can I go watch TV now?” My priest calls the apathetic C&E Catholicss (they show up for Christmas and Easter and that’s it). Then there are people who are strugglers, like me, who keep making bad choices but want to make good ones, and then there are people like my father, who know what good choices are but have made bad ones and accept just punishment for them as part of their mistake. So, eh, I talk too much. Blah.
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Wolseley
Guest
My own dear wife was driven out of the Church for upwards of two years because of liturgical abuses. We didn’t have a bishop at that time, and the local parishes more or less went nutzoid----it rivalled the Silly Seventies, when every Mass you went to was some sort of dog-and-pony show with God knows what insane novelty cobbled into it to make it “modern and trendy”.
The lay worship committees of every parish in the deanery got ahold of some old copies of Liturgy This Week and decided to try out everything in them, and my wife walked out of a Mass in tears one Sunday, and refused to go back for a long, long time afterwards. I’ve finally managed to get her back in church, but she’s still reserved, I’m afraid. It’s like she’s waiting for the dog-and-pony show to start up again. If it ever does, I don’t know what’ll happen.
I hold it against the “liturgists” and their fun and games who caused this situation, but I don’t know what I can do about it. I gave up all hope of ever attending a quiet, dignified, respectful and worshipful Mass years ago; I long for wine, but I simply grit my teeth and drink the vinegar every Sunday.
The lay worship committees of every parish in the deanery got ahold of some old copies of Liturgy This Week and decided to try out everything in them, and my wife walked out of a Mass in tears one Sunday, and refused to go back for a long, long time afterwards. I’ve finally managed to get her back in church, but she’s still reserved, I’m afraid. It’s like she’s waiting for the dog-and-pony show to start up again. If it ever does, I don’t know what’ll happen.
I hold it against the “liturgists” and their fun and games who caused this situation, but I don’t know what I can do about it. I gave up all hope of ever attending a quiet, dignified, respectful and worshipful Mass years ago; I long for wine, but I simply grit my teeth and drink the vinegar every Sunday.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
The Pope actually leans toward liberal ideology more than a conservative one.
In his book, “Values in a Time of Upheaval,” he writes how people call for change, but for change to take place, society must be open to change, which is a liberal ideology. This is different than conservative ideology which seeks to keep the status quo.
The Pope wrote more books when he was a Cardinal, and spoke as a Cardinal. Now, he must speak as a Pope, and is responsible for everything he says regarding the universal Church.
Jim
In his book, “Values in a Time of Upheaval,” he writes how people call for change, but for change to take place, society must be open to change, which is a liberal ideology. This is different than conservative ideology which seeks to keep the status quo.
The Pope wrote more books when he was a Cardinal, and spoke as a Cardinal. Now, he must speak as a Pope, and is responsible for everything he says regarding the universal Church.
Jim
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Digitonomy
Guest
This is an interesting spin, and I think there is some truth to your approach. However, the pontiff had time to prepare his responses beforehand, and could have explained more clearly if that’s what he meant. Overall I think we can take his words on this matter at face value, without having to read between the lines.
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