Pope and China in historic deal on bishops

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The other popes were wrong when they chose to leave Chinese Catholics in hiding? in any way, as I said, Cardinal Zen is himself scandalized by this choice of the Vatican.
 
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Well if China starts angering their neighbors by their claim to the South China Sea or to the water sources important to India, the CCP may be on their way out.

A war between China and India may be a worst case scenario.
 
What I think does not matter on the rightness or wrongness of the Pope’s decision since I lack information and will probably be wrong anyway.

All I can do is pray for the Pope.

I also never mentioned other Popes so I don’t understand your question.
 
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Precisely that Catholics in China deserve shepherds like we have that the Chinese government should not be allowed to choose bishops—which must be wholly in the domain of the Catholic Church.
 
Randolph said:
which must be wholly in the domain of the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
It is. It is wholly in the domain of the Catholic Church right now. It is the church’s decision to make. Not ours.
 
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If you know what happened to Catholics in China, then you would also know that Cardinal Zen, who understands the situation so well, opposes the Chinese government to choose bishops there… And so do the underground Catholics themselves…
 
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No, they should have good bishops appointed by the Holy See.
 
There are a number of them trolling this site.

Thanks for the heads up.
 
It’s the decision for the Church to make…But this is a very bad decision and will have negative consequences to Catholics in China. They, and their future generations, are the ones who will bear all the sufferings—not those sitting comfortably in Rome.
 
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How it does not visibly embarrass some people to see Pope Francis doing progressively the opposite of what these predecessors had do? to cross each time the red lines placed by his predecessors?
 
Yes, as I said on the other thread, Cardinal Zen’s opposition gives me pause. Hiwver, the cuyrrent archbishop of Hong Kong, Cardinal John Hong Ton, supports the aggreement. He is also well placed.
And the fact that the Chinese government is cracking down on religion might be one reason this agreement, which seems to me to be a formalization if what Pope Benedict started early in his pontificate, is being agreed upon now.

As I detailed on the other thread:
These types of aggreement with totalitarian governments have been done in the past.
Most (almost all?) of the bishops under the CPCA have been recognized by Rome.
It is simply not the case that most Catholics in China have to choose between the CPCA and the underground church.
Pope Benedict and the Chinese givernment jointly appointed two bishops in 2007.
Catholics in China have been given permission to receive Sacraments from CPCA priests andbishops who have not been recognized by Rome for grave reasons.
I believe ( but have only found one source) that the Vatican quit allowing new underground bishops to be ordained in 1995.
Catholics who attend CPCA parishes have never been declared in schism.
There is overlap in places, but it is not true that there is a schismatic church under the CPCA and a valid underground church.
Pope Benedict invited two CPCA bishops to attend a synod in Rome.

Very complex. We just do not know what is best.
Those condemning the policy in the West seem to me to be uninformed and using it as another way to attack Pope Francis. The latter part of this past sentence is, admittedly, a guess as to their motivation.
 
Steve Mosher of Population Research Institute, spent years helping underground Catholics in China build Churches and open orphanages, and also has misgivings about the China deal. He was the first American social scientist allowed into mainland China in 1979, a pro-choice, atheist at that time. After reviewing documents and witnessing traumatic abortions he become a practicing, pro-life Roman Catholic. He also see the deal as a betrayal -the Chinese Communist Party has long been determined to force underground Catholics out of the catacombs so they can be brought under strict Party control.

You can browse through his numerous articles at:

www.pop.org

Our President - PRI

Steven W. Mosher is an internationally recognized authority on China and population issues, as well as an acclaimed author, speaker. He has worked tirelessly since 1979 to fight coercive population control programs and has helped hundreds of thousands of women and families worldwide over the...
www.pop.org www.pop.org
 
This is what I mean!!! It seems to me to be very much inline with the policy direction of St John Paul II, a direction that was moved substantially forward under Benedict. You guys making these statements are just pulling your opinion out if thin air and presenting it as fact.
 
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I respect and admire Mr. Moshet, but his latest commentary on the aggreement has a couple of red flags. Namely, he perpetuates an inaccurate view of how the Church in China exists. For a good article, which tends to support your position, but which does a much better job of describing the Catholic Church in China, I would refer you to:


As for doing your research for you to help your cause: your welcome 🙂
 
Thanks -good historical context.

The Catholic World Reporter who wrote the article you linked for my research, Anthony E Clark, also interviewed Cardinal Zen. He shares the same “inaccurate?” concerns as Steve Mosher:
  • Chinese Underground Catholics feel betrayed
  • Pope Francis does not have very wide and strong experience with communist regimes, and all the time I am trying desperately to give him some insight.”
  • “The difference is in that while Pope Benedict XVI knew very well the situation, the people in the Vatican did not follow his directives, and now while Pope Francis does not know much about the Chinese communists and is so optimistic, the people around him are pushing him further in his optimism, and avoiding informing him about the very negative side of the present reality.”
  • “Tearing down the crosses and demolishing churches are only the more visible episodes,” he insisted, “the continuous harassments and humiliations [endured by China’s Catholics] would take volumes to be narrated.”
www.catholicworldreport.com

Cardinal Zen: Chinese Catholics’ “continuous harassments…would take volumes to be narrated.”

www.catholicworldreport.com www.catholicworldreport.com
 
Aren’t we part of the church ? Or is all that just nice sounding theology. Pray pay and obey. No wonder the protestant reformation was so widespread
 
No…it is realism on my part.
The day they call me to NASA to hear my opinion about how to fix the last rocket launging.,I will let you know. So that austronauts start running away before I get there.:running_man:😀
 
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