Actually, we still practice perpetual servitude in most countries. Here in the US, a person in prison makes things like auto license plates or other items used by the State.Do special dispensations to enslave heretics still exist today in the Catholic Church? If not, would you say that they have changed how it views dispensations regarding slavery?
If you read Pope Francis’ “nowadays” in its full, proper context, you will better understand the entirety of his message as opposed to being fixated on one word out of context.**Nowadays **
definition:
“at the present time”
Source:
Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Example:
Nowadays, my wife has a job while I don’t.
What is your reason for believing that capital punishment should be banned absolutely and never used again? The fact is that we live in a very volatile world. So even if every prison system in the world were perfect today there’s no reason that it would go on that way indefinitely.In both examples, what is implied with the use of the word “nowadays” is that we don’t do things the way we did them before.
It looks like the infallible teaching has been changed since according to recent reports Cardinal O’Malley has said that the death penalty is against the teaching of the Catholic Church.The doctrines contained are infallible. Some of those might be ex cathedra, like CCC 966, in which the ex cathedra doctrine of the Assumption is restated.
Others are from the Infallible Extraordinary Magisterium (Ecumenical Councils) like CCC 195, where it reiterated the Nicene Creed ( Infallible by the Council of Nicaea)
CCC 2267, which includes the reiteration of the teaching of the death penalty given by the Council of Trent via it’s Catechism, is included as an infallible teaching of the Extraordinary Infallible Magisterium
And, of course, the are many other teachings given by the Ordinary Infallible Magisterium (the normal form in the infallible teachings, that which was given to us by the Apostles)
Like CCC 1577 , the teachings on the valid recipient of Holy Orders.
Are you saying that the perpetual servitude of Black Africans by the white European slavemaster is allowed as long as they are considered to be people and have human dignity and serve their slave masters with their labor in perpetuity?Actually, we still practice perpetual servitude in most countries. Here in the US, a person in prison makes things like auto license plates or other items used by the State.
But ‘perpetual servitude’ does not equal slavery. The prisoners are still considered to be people, and have human dignity, but their labor is compelled ( servitude), a person serving a life sentence would do thus serve with their labor in perpetuity.
With regard to slavery’s being permissible, I once read a Jewish response to the issue, which, to summarize, stated that the slavery permitted in the Bible was more of an indentured servitude and slaves were treated far better than they were by other nations. More important still, the abolition of slavery would less likely have been possible if the attempt was made to abolish it all at once, thus it had to be diminished slowly. I realize this sounds like a rationalization, but the details of the argument were interesting within a cultural context. Perhaps it is also applicable to the death penalty from a biblical perspective.Are you saying that the perpetual servitude of Black Africans by the white European slavemaster is allowed as long as they are considered to be people and have human dignity and serve their slave masters with their labor in perpetuity?
To my mind, buying and selling of women and children on the auction block, just like you would buy or sell a goat, is wrong. Changing the words to describe this, in order to justify it, calling it servitude or something else, imho is not appropriate, since the effect of being enslaved remains the same, regardless of what you want to call it.With regard to slavery’s being permissible, I once read a Jewish response to the issue, which, to summarize, stated that the slavery permitted in the Bible was more of an indentured servitude and slaves were treated far better than they were by other nations. More important still, the abolition of slavery would less likely have been possible if the attempt was made to abolish it all at once, thus it had to be diminished slowly. I realize this sounds like a rationalization, but the details of the argument were interesting within a cultural context. Perhaps it is also applicable to the death penalty from a biblical perspective.
Context is important in reading Scripture. Here’s the rest of what those verses say (bold emphasis is mine):At one time slaves were told that they had to obey their masters with fear and trembling.
Ephesians 6:5
Colossians 3:22
1 Peter 2:18
As far as I can see, that teaching has been changed.
Has the teaching changed or are slaves still supposed to obey their masters with fear and trembling as long as their masters treat their slaves “fairly”?Context is important in reading Scripture. Here’s the rest of what those verses say (bold emphasis is mine):
“Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ; not in the way of eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to men, knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.” -Ephesians 6:5-9
“Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality. Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.”
Saint Paul was not advocating for slavery. He was addressing slaves and masters of slaves and telling them how they should treat one another. And Peter was saying that when we suffer we should do it as Christ did. This principle of enduring suffering with patience for the sake of the Kingdom is Christ’s teaching that we should love our enemies. It’s a universal principle that applies to all Christians. One of the Pope’s official titles is “Servant of the Servants of God.” All Christians are called to humility and service and to love those who persecute us. Loving our enemies is what distinguishes Christians from the pagans. And this extraordinary virtue is what impressed the pagans in the early Church so much that many of them became Christians. This is how Christianity was spread without a revolt.
- Colossians 3:22-4:1
“So the last will be first, and the first last” - Matthew 20:16
The Church makes a distinction between chattel slavery, where the person is considered to be property, not a person and situations where the person has rights, but is compelled to provide labor.Are you saying that the perpetual servitude of Black Africans by the white European slavemaster is allowed as long as they are considered to be people and have human dignity and serve their slave masters with their labor in perpetuity?
Correct, and the Church has always condemned the view that people are no different from goats, to be sold or killed at the whim of others.To my mind, buying and selling of women and children on the auction block, just like you would buy or sell a goat, is wrong
Yes, the Church expects that a prisoner obey the guards and the Warden, as long as they treat him fairly. If the guards abuse him, the prisoner has a right to complain. That simply confirms that Church’s view that the one from whom servitude is compelled still retain rights.Has the teaching changed or are slaves still supposed to obey their masters with fear and trembling as long as their masters treat their slaves “fairly”?
The Church has never said that there should be slavery. The Apostles gave instructions on how we should treat one another. We should treat one another with love. Is a slave really a slave if he is being treated with love and respect as a child of God and a brother in Christ?Has the teaching changed or are slaves still supposed to obey their masters with fear and trembling as long as their masters treat their slaves “fairly”?
I guess he is just prolife all the way! Good for the Pope!It seems that our Pope has been unequivocal about the evils of capital punishment. I have never been able to understand how any Christian, let alone Catholic, could support the death penalty.
I think now that the Pope has said the final word on this matter.
Here is the link from the Vatican.
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/03/20/pope_francis_no_crime_ever_deserves_the_death_penalty/1130871
Millions of Indian children work as slaves which I believe is wrong, even if they are treated with love and respect. I would not agree that these child slaves should obey their masters with fear and trembling.The Church has never said that there should be slavery. The Apostles gave instructions on how we should treat one another. We should treat one another with love. Is a slave really a slave if he is being treated with love and respect as a child of God and a brother in Christ?
This analogy doesnt hold up. People in prison have broken the law in some way and that is why they are there. The “perpetual servitude”, that is, eternal enslavement that was described in Dum Diversas, was given full permission to those to search out, capture, and enslave people for merely practicing another religion, or for being “pagan.” I think today we understand that people are entitled to their beliefs whatever they my be, and we dont go around enslaving them for it.Actually, we still practice perpetual servitude in most countries. Here in the US, a person in prison makes things like auto license plates or other items used by the State.
But ‘perpetual servitude’ does not equal slavery. The prisoners are still considered to be people, and have human dignity, but their labor is compelled ( servitude), a person serving a life sentence would do thus serve with their labor in perpetuity.
That’s a straw man objection to the Church. The Church has condemned chattel slavery. She condemned it in 1537 and again in 1839, more than twenty years before America’s Emancipation Proclamation. In the first century, the pagans commonly kept slaves. So St. Paul and St. Peter wrote letters addressing both slave and master and telling both to treat the other with love. Their instructions would make it impossible for slavery to exist if the slave master were to follow what they said. Christianity is not about starting a revolutionary war. That’s why Jesus Christ discouraged his apostles from fighting when Jesus’ enemies came to arrest him. St. Paul and St. Peter were not in a position to end slavery. St. Paul was imprisoned, beaten, and beheaded. St. Peter was imprisoned and crucified upside down. But you are talking about them as if they were in charge of the Roman Empire.Millions of Indian children work as slaves which I believe is wrong, even if they are treated with love and respect. I would not agree that these child slaves should obey their masters with fear and trembling.
abcnews.go.com/International/daughters-sale-indias-child-slavery-scourge/story?id=20540368
That was their offense, or more specifically it was the invasion of Christian lands. The Saracens (along with the Turks) invaded Christian Palestine and claimed it as their own. In the case here, they had move forward across the Bosporus that were threating Byzantium. The Emperor appealed to Rome for aid in combating this invasion, and this was part of the authority given to Spain to deal with the invaders. So, no the crime was not simply for being pagan, they could have done that easily if they stayed in the Arabian peninsula and not threated Byzantium.This analogy doesnt hold up. People in prison have broken the law in some way and that is why they are there. The “perpetual servitude”, that is, eternal enslavement that was described in Dum Diversas, was given full permission to those to search out, capture, and enslave people for merely practicing another religion, or for being “pagan.” I think today we understand that people are entitled to their beliefs whatever they my be, and we dont go around enslaving them for it.
Even if this were servitude of the gentlest kind, it is against the dignity of the human person to enslave them for eternity.
My reasons are that the Pope has said so and that in modern society (I am thinking western society) the death penalty is abhorrent.What is your reason for believing that capital punishment should be banned absolutely and never used again? The fact is that we live in a very volatile world. So even if every prison system in the world were perfect today there’s no reason that it would go on that way indefinitely.
Agree!My reasons are that the Pope has said so and that in modern society (I am thinking western society) the death penalty is abhorrent.
Whoa their cowboy! You equate abortion and euthanasia with the death penalty? What a stretch ! From the time he/she is caught and goes to trial and the lengthy appeals process, don’t you think the criminal has time to repent before they receive the “consequences” of their sin? Pope Francis cannot change Church teaching on a whim!Respect for life is just that. Abortion, euthanasia, death penalty… all of these erode our respect and reverence for God’s creations. One of the main reasons that I’ve opposed the death penalty is something that Pope Francis addressed, that is it denies a criminal the chance to repent and make reparation for their crime(s).