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otm
Guest
No, not completely. they are not identical, but to posit they are not linked is to posit that pigs fly. If it has feathers and webbed feet and a bill and quacks, it is not a sheep.
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Scout
Guest
Who said it was a “right”? All I’m saying is that it shouldn’t be denied someone who is called by God.
Scout :tiphat:
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LCMS_No_More
Guest
Actually, it does seem that there are some who DO believe that homosexual attraction is a sign of predestination to damnation…which, of course, makes them heretics because supralapsarianism is a form of Calvinist heresy.
I can live with this declaration because that’s what the Pope has chosen to do.
I would like to make a couple of observations of some posts I’ve read here:
The poster of the CCC citation loves to make talk about how SSA is a sign of a psychological disorder. Fair enough…I guess…if insulting language is your forte, but I digress (I prefer to say that I “have issues”), yet fails to point out any specifics on that disorder and its causes.
Basically, homosexuality is a manifestation of many different things:
Gender identity deficit
Defensive detachment from members of the same sex
Self-pity and unhealthy low self-esteem
A sense of detachment of one’s self from one’s own physical body
I can relate to all of these, which is why I understand why I don’t think I’d be a good fit for the priesthood.
On the other hand, I wonder, sometimes, what people expect persons who have SSA to do. What kind of vocation could they have in their lives in order to serve God? Is cleaning the sewer too GOOD for a person with SSA? For some, I think so. Most people have access to six of the seven sacraments (baptism, communion, confirmation, confession, anointing of the sick, and orders OR marriage). As it is, people suffering with SSA are limited to five (remove orders or marriage). So, what kind of vocation does a person with SSA have? Eternal hellfire? Purgatory for all time until judgement day? A life of penance but no ecclesial blessing or assistance in doing so? What?
Additionally, there is only ONE approved ministry to persons struggling with this issue and it doesn’t really deal with the issues that underly SSA, only how to live in accord with the CCC’s teachings on the subject (which, interestingly enough, actually cause the underlying issues to come to the surface with amazing speed). Also, that ONE approved ministry is very limited in the number of chapters exist and some chapters only meet twice a month.
I believe that the Church needs to aggressively REACH OUT to people with SSA in order to assist us in dealing with the underlying issues so we can overcome them.
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otm
Guest
There is a significant difference between a pedophile and an ephebophile.
There is a difference between a male pedophile who exclusively abuses male prepubescent children, one who is an equal opportunity abuser, and one who abuses female children exclusively.
The great majority of abusers appear to have been men who abused post pubescent boys. Given the vocal commentary by NAMBLA, it would appear either a case of naievety or intellectual dishonesty to try to make the male adult on male post pubescent boys into something other than homosexual activity (I am refering to others’ statements, not yours).
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Scout
Guest
My point is that people just love to make the two equal. “If one is a homosexual, then one is a potential child-molester”. Absolute nonsense!!
I used to date women in high school, and there is nobody who’s going to tell me that I’m a potential child-molester. It’s all a bunch of people making accusations against people they don’t know and don’t want to take the time to get to know. If there was ever a prejudice in this world, this is it.
Scout
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Scout
Guest
They’re not the same thing! But oh, how people just love to make the two equal. “If one is a homosexual, then one is a potential child-molester”. Absolute nonsense!!
I used to date women in high school, and there is nobody who’s going to tell me that I’m a potential child-molester. It’s all a bunch of people making accusations against people they don’t know and don’t want to take the time to get to know. If there was ever a prejudice in this world, this is it.
Scout
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otm
Guest
That might have some basis if one were to accept the delisting of homosexuality as a mental disorder. That in itself was an issue lobbied extremely hard by a very vocal and small minority. It bcame a political issue instead of a scientific issue.
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otm
Guest
Priesthood is not a privilege, unless one believes in clericalism.
It is a calling, a gift from God.
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otm
Guest
The simple basics of morality say that homosexulaity is an abomination. It is condemned boith in the Old Testamnet and by St. Paul.
Moral theology after Vatican 2 was supposed to move away from the Manual approach to a more biblical approach, but the whole process got sidetracked by what was going on in philosophical ethics and bubblegum psychology with Situational Ethics and a whole raft of beyond goofy psycholological experimentation.
the intent was not to abandon the simple basics of morality, but to move beyond a legalistic, minimalistic approach to morality to what Christ calaled us to. It went astray with a whole lot of other things in the aftermath of Humanae Vitae.
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TeriGator
Guest
Holy cow! I have never seen obedience to the Bride of Christ compared to being a Nazi! :bigyikes: In fact, I’m very much taken aback by the audacity. Are you sure that’s really what you meant?
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MikeinSD
Guest
It is amazing that this “vocal minority” managed to keep a mental illness delisted for over 25 years. With, I guess, absolutely no scientific evidence.
If fact, presumption that homosexuality was a mental illness was under fire since the late 1950s. Psychologists actually started testing gay men outside mental health hospitals with standard psychological tests and discovered that there was no difference in response between homosexuals and the heterosexuals. apa.org/pi/statemen.html
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otm
Guest
No, actually the Church has said that the feelings are gravely disordered. That is not the same thing as saying that they are sinfual; feelings are emotions, and they come and they go; morality involves intended acts based on those feelings. But the Church says that a person made in the image and likelyness of God is instilled with a certain basic (normal) response in sexual terms, and that is to the opposite sex. One who does not have that innate response is disordered, just as one who has that innate response to the opposite sex is po\roperly ordered.
Yes, with the exception first noted.
that borders on the assumption that because one feels one has a vocation, that one therefore does. Further, it borders also on an implied assumption that because one feels one has a vocation, that one therefore has a right to that vocation. Just because you may feel you have a calling to marry Suzie Q doewn’t mean you have a vocation to do so, nor a a right to do so.
However, our sexual orientation is a significant part of who we are - not the totality, but a significant part. If a significant part is disordered, then how is that to reflect Christ, who is not disordered?
Again, you talk about discrimination, but discrimination is about a denial of a basic right; and you have not shown any basic right to ordination. Ultimately, ordination is a combination of a call by God to the individual, and a call by the Church to the individual. It is not a right.
I agree. However, the Church is helping him find his place; and priesthood is not a place that he has a right to. None of us has rights before God, except to His justice. We have no right to His mercy.
There appear to be some who are trying to muddy the water by saying that ephebophilia and homosexuality are two entirely different things. While they are different, there do not appear to be any ephebophiles , male on male, who do not alos have homosxual tendencies; further, it outright ignores history (men boy love was not unknown throughout it, with some particualr attention to both ancient Greece and Rome) and current studies.
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otm
Guest
No, common sense would say that there have been no reporting of abuse; that is not the same as no abuse.I am sure that the church in the Uk must have more than 0 homosexual priests, yet statistics say that we have none, as there has been no scandal.
Similarly in respect Libero.
Further, abuse is not the only source of reporting of homosexuality. As homosexuals have become the “darlings” of society, society is not inclined to look at behavior that has become more and more public; the fact that the behavior is not reported is not proof that there is not behavior.
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nucatholic
Guest
I have been meeting with several priests about possibly joining the seminary. It has been clearly explained that the priesthood is NOT a right. No one has the right to become a priest. The Church working with the Holy Spirit decides who to accept. If this is the new policy so be it.
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otm
Guest
Joan MAs for how will Seminary Rectors find out if Seminarians have SSA - they will be in the Seminary for at least 4 years said:
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otm
Guest
I would not expect a standard psychological test to discover homosexuality if homosexuality were not the subject the test was designed to discover.
That is like saying that the standard eye exam did not discover a difference between those who were color blind and those who weren’t; of course it didn’t, as the test was designed to determine whether or not you were near sighted.
And if you are amazed, you might want to read up on the battle that was waged, and read about what psychiatrists have had to say about the issue since then.
Most people are not widely read; and this is an area that most people have not read much, if anything, and certainly not anything much deeper that Newsweek.
There is plenty of discussion out there to be found and read, but first one must exhibit some interest.
It also helps if one is not highly biased before one begins reading.
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otm
Guest
Well, then, let’s go a little deeper. We believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church, and the Church is ultimately the one who makes the final call. that is, ultimately it is God who makes the call, but the call is exercised through the ministry of the Church, not through the individual.
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otm
Guest
I agree, let’s get back to the Gospel of Christ, and since we consider St. Paul to be one of the preeminent theologians, let’s pay attention to what St. Paul says about homosexuality. And don’t give bach the bit about it being a cultural comment.
Further, there can only be discrimination where there is a right; if there is no right, there is no discrimination.
Ordination is not, and never has been, a right.
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otm
Guest
It would appear that you are almost completely ignorant of the amount of homosexual activity “on the street” between runaway teenage boys and homosexual men. It as nothing to do with prejudice, and a whole lot to do with facts. You also appear to never have heard of NAMBLA. You might want to find out what they have to say.They’re not the same thing! But oh, how people just love to make the two equal. “If one is a homosexual, then one is a potential child-molester”. Absolute nonsense!!
I used to date women in high school, and there is nobody who’s going to tell me that I’m a potential child-molester. It’s all a bunch of people making accusations against people they don’t know and don’t want to take the time to get to know. If there was ever a prejudice in this world, this is it.
Scout
No one is saying that if one is a homosexual, one is a child molester; but there is ample evidence that many, if not a majority of homosexuals have admitted to having either sexual fantasies about post pubescent boys, or having had sexual relations with them. There is more research than you are fmiliar with. Before you start making charges, do some reading.
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KBarn
Guest
Without taking a stance either way, the Church decides if a man truly has the call. God makes the call through His Church. She decides if a man is “qualified” (if any can be spoken of as qualified). If the Church is not equipped to decide who can be a priest, then she must ordain any and every man who makes the claim.
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