Pope approves barring gay seminarians

[YinYangMom]

ncjohn:

Maybe I’ll be written off as just being “emotional” here. I admit I get that way when I come to a logical conclusion that my Church is out of step with its own teachings and undermining its own credibility. While the Church may have the purest intentions in the world here—and I’m not assuming they don’t—I can’t help but conclude that it’s a bad political reaction to an admittedly horrible problem. While the moral good being sought may be laudable, I don’t see the end justifying the means.

Nah, you did good.

Question though…
do you believe being a priest is a choice or a calling?

In either situation:

CHOICE -
If it’s a choice, then a faithful Catholic would respect, accept and obey the Church’s authority in matters of faith and morals. While they may disagree with the position or not fully understand or embrace it, they would honor it humbly and dutifully. Therefore, faithful SSAers would not seek the priesthood.

CALLING -
I think what I’m hearing from SSA seminarian defenders is the question about a celibate, obedient, honorable SSAer who feels the call to the priesthood as a vocation. I would include my concern about past SSAers who, by the grace of God and the teaching/support of the Church to help them realize and live the truth, being banned from the seminary when they feel the call to offer their lives in return for being saved by Her.

I wouldn’t question the calling itself. But I, and they, being faithful Catholics would respect and honor the Church’s authority to discern whether or not the calling is indeed for the priesthood as opposed to some other line of lifelong service (monastery? Lay organizations? Third orders?). And so we would trust the Bishop and the Church to accept or reject accordingly and accept the ruling.

The bottom line is priesthood is something the Church passes down through apostolic succession and She is obliged to do so with great respect, regard and concern for the Church and the men before them seeking the priesthood.

Your opinion and mine, our personal beliefs, do not really matter here. They are not capable of seeing the bigger picture as it is not revealed to us through the Holy Spirit as it is to the Church. We must trust in the Lord in all things, including those we do not understand.

 

[contemplative]

contemplative:

I want to reintroduce an idea than many of you may already be familiar with.

Simple Obedience

Simple obedience is to simply obey the Church even when you don’t fully understand why you are suppose to or not suppose to do something…even when you don’t have the foggiest idea why you should do something.

Years ago I chose to disobey the Church when I didn’t fully understand Her. I knew that I should have simply obeyed the Church but my selfishness and pride would never hear of it. Today I realize my sin. God has His own way of getting to us…in His time…not ours.

Think of all the Holy men who have been denied priesthood and have settled on being a brother or once they were a priest they were not allowed to hear confessions or be the celebrant for Mass. These Holy men simply obeyed when perhaps they didn’t fully understand.

There is a reason for everything. God’s ways are not our ways. If we believe in one Catholic Apostolic Church then we would never give this order from our Pope a second thought.

When the feelings of rebellion rear their wicked heads then ask God to touch all that isn’t Him in you. Ask God to send His saving Grace.

ncjohn:

While the Church may have the purest intentions in the world here—and I’m not assuming they don’t—I can’t help but conclude that it’s a bad political reaction

and again …
We are not talking about a political process and civil obedience. We are talking about simple obedience to the Church…in our thoughts and actions.

 

[Hildebrand]

ncjohn:

In a zeal to protect someone (children, maybe the seminarians themselves, the Church itself?) we are willing to target all gay seminarians and banish them regardless of whether they are involved in the fray or ever would be involved in any evil.

The Church already “targets” people with psychological problems and bars them from the priesthood.

Each seminarian goes through psychological testing. Included are questions like “Do you see visions?” “Do you hear inner locutions?”

If the Catholic Church is willing to “discriminate” against people who may potentially be seeing valid visions of God, the saints, angels, future events, etc; then the Church is right in “discriminating” against people with very serious disorders like SSA.

 

[contemplative]

Think of all the Holy men who have been denied priesthood and have settled on being a brother or once they were a priest they were not allowed to hear confessions or be the celebrant for Mass. These Holy men simply obeyed when perhaps they didn’t fully understand.

Andre Bessette Brother - simple porter of the College of Notre-Dame-du-Sacré-Coeur in Côte-des-Neiges

St. Padre Pio was a priest but there were times when he was not allowed to be celebrant for Mass.

The Holy Office in Rome became aware of Padre Pio’s stigmata and by Christmas of 1920 had its reasons to forbid him to hear confessions, baptize, or to celebrate Mass in public. He was not allowed outside of his monastery to visit the sick, to administer Extreme Unction to the dying, or to perform any pastoral duty. These restrictions remained in force for two years. Read more…

Read about these two men and draw conclusions but please don’t say …

Originally Posted by ncjohn

While the Church may have the purest intentions in the world here—and I’m not assuming they don’t—I can’t help but conclude that it’s a bad political reaction

The Church has a reason for doing everything that it does. We just can not possibly see the whole picture each and every time. We are not meant to.

 

[fix]

ncjohn:

Finally, while the Church has confined this to the seminary and decided to let the existing gay priests just die off, their action has allowed for the laity to make the assumption that these priests, regardless of how distinguished and chaste their careers have been, can be branded as sinful and disordered. I have already heard of people calling for a gay priest to be transferred out of their parish based on this, referring to “getting this wolf out of the flock.” I fear that the Church’s actions here have fed into the already manic homophobia of the religious right that will result in people feeling justified in further demonizing and marginalizing the gay population.

There is much in your post I could respond to, but I wanted to remark about this particular passage. In this age we have become co-opted by those pushing the “gay” agenda. Every act of legitimate concern, or prudential judgment is called “homophobic”. This is patently absurd and I believe comes from the deception that “gays” are the victims of huge amounts of discrimination. This is a tactic used to silence those who are tired of the moral relativism, disingenuous charity and subtle erosion of Christian civilization and the replacement of virtues and vices with political correctism.

Each time the Church takes a stand that defends the truth and calls us to conversion I read about how the Church is “hurting” those who call themselves"gay".

There should be no such thing as a “gay” priest. The term “gay” is a political word that assumes one accepts the “gay” culture and “gay” political aspirations. Priests that suffer from SSA, and are holy men, do not call themselves “gay”.

 

[ncjohn]

fix:

There should be no such thing as a “gay” priest. The term “gay” is a political word that assumes one accepts the “gay” culture and “gay” political aspirations. Priests that suffer from SSA, and are holy men, do not call themselves “gay”.

I’ll defer to you on this one fix. You are right about the connotations of “gay,” right or wrong, that could confuse what I’m saying here and set off mental blocks just by its use.

It doesn’t change the content at all though; you can substitute in SSA everywhere I said gay and it still comes out the same–there won’t be any priest with SSA regardless of how chaste and holy they are.

 

[YinYangMom]

Blessed Brother Andre of St. Joseph - simple porter of the College of Notre-Dame-du-Sacré-Coeur in Côte-des-Neiges

St. Padre Pio was a priest but there were times when he was not allowed to be celebrant for Mass.

The Holy Office in Rome became aware of Padre Pio’s stigmata and by Christmas of 1920 had its reasons to forbid him to hear confessions, baptize, or to celebrate Mass in public. He was not allowed outside of his monastery to visit the sick, to administer Extreme Unction to the dying, or to perform any pastoral duty. These restrictions remained in force for two years. Read more…

Read about these two men and draw conclusions but please don’t say …

The Church has a reason for doing everything that it does. We just can not possibly see the whole picture each and every time. We are not meant to.

Thanks for those links…quite interesting…

not wanting to hijack this thread, I can’t help but comment on this part of the Padre Pio link:

He replied, “I see all the people who ask for my intercession during the day, but I also see many souls from Purgatory, so many that you would need a mountain to hold them all.”

In reading that my heart grows so heavy. Why, with all the masses said all around the world, with every mass including the souls of purgatory - with so many devout catholics offering up indulgences for the souls in purgatory that there are still so many waiting???

Do you think these souls Padre Pio saw included non-Catholic souls or were those just the Catholic baptized ones?

 

[contemplative]

YinYangMom:

Do you think these souls Padre Pio saw included non-Catholic souls or were those just the Catholic baptized ones?

My guess is that they could be any one - Catholic and no-Catholic.

 

[ncjohn]

contemplative:

The Church has a reason for doing everything that it does. We just can not possibly see the whole picture each and every time. We are not meant to.

Contemplative,

I agree that there are sometimes things we can’t see, and that sometimes holy people are called to suffer.

We are also called by our Church to speak out in areas where we have expertise and concern. If we don’t speak out when we perceive injustice we become like the old quote: “They came for the Jews, but I did not speak out because I was not Jewish…”

This position is not one I came by lightly. There was, as I mentioned, a tremendous amount of time spent in prayer and discernment on this. I really felt more like Jeremiah saying “Lord I will speak your name no more” but realized that I don’t have that option. If I discern Him telling me to speak, I must speak. If I discern wrongly, I’ll accept His patient correction.

Peace to you,

 

[contemplative]

Blessed Brother Andre Bessette - simple porter of the College of Notre-Dame-du-Sacré-Coeur in Côte-des-Neiges

St. Padre Pio was a priest but there were times when he was not allowed to be celebrant for Mass.

The Holy Office in Rome became aware of Padre Pio’s stigmata and by Christmas of 1920 had its reasons to forbid him to hear confessions, baptize, or to celebrate Mass in public. He was not allowed outside of his monastery to visit the sick, to administer Extreme Unction to the dying, or to perform any pastoral duty. These restrictions remained in force for two years. Read more…

Read about these two men and draw conclusions but please don’t say …

The Church has a reason for doing everything that it does. We just can not possibly see the whole picture each and every time. We are not meant to.

I have a few books about St. Padre Pio. I recall that in them he never, never, never would disobey the Church. St. Padre Pio was very clear about not wanting to disobey the Church. He never complained when the Church told him to stay shut up in the monastery.

Right now I am battling a little cold virus. As soon as I am feeling up to it I will go to those books and find where it describes St. Padre Pio’s simple obedience.

 

[YinYangMom]

ncjohn:

We are also called by our Church to speak out in areas where** we have expertise** and concern. If we don’t speak out when we perceive injustice we become like the old quote: “They came for the Jews, but I did not speak out because I was not Jewish…”

But how can any of us have more expertise than that represented by the combined intellect of “The Congregation for Catholic Education…advice from all of the world’s bishops, from psychologists, and from moral theologians.” coupled with the guidance of the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus Himself?

While I do not discount the amount of struggle you have endured to reach the conclusion you have, with all due respect, keep struggling, you’re not quite there yet. You’re on the right path but apparently there is more to discover which will help you to appreciate the Church’s teaching.

 

[ncjohn]

YinYangMom:

The bottom line is priesthood is something the Church passes down through apostolic succession and She is obliged to do so with great respect, regard and concern for the Church and the men before them seeking the priesthood.

I totally agree that it is a calling that must be discerned equally by the Church and the person feeling called. I went through that process myself in trying to discern a calling to the diaconate.

Let me ask in return: Do you truly believe that none of the innumerable men discerning callings really have them just by virtue of SSA and that this should just be a blanket ban? I have no problem with the “weeding out” process on an individual basis; I can’t see it being right the way it’s being done.

Peace,

 

[fix]

ncjohn:

I totally agree that it is a calling that must be discerned equally by the Church and the person feeling called. I went through that process myself in trying to discern a calling to the diaconate.

Let me ask in return: Do you truly believe that none of the innumerable men discerning callings really have them just by virtue of SSA and that this should just be a blanket ban? I have no problem with the “weeding out” process on an individual basis; I can’t see it being right the way it’s being done.

Peace,

Yes, I truly believe. The “ban” is not unjust. As you agree ordination is not a right, how are guidelines and impediments unjust?

 

[contemplative]

from
Padre Pio
A City on a Mountain
By Pascal P. Parente. S.T.D.,Ph.D.,J.C.B
page 50

In one of his spiritual exhortaions, Padre Pio had this to say about the virtue of obedience:
"Where there is no obedience, there is no virtue; where there is no virtue, there is no good; where there is no good, there is no love; where there is no love, there is no God; and where there is no God, there is no Paradise.

Guided by such wisdom, it was not difficult for him to be resigned to the Will of God as manifested in the command received from his ecclesiastical superiors. With obedience he had God and retained the living hope of never-ending bliss; what did he care if everything else was taken from him?

 

[contemplative]

contemplative:

from
Padre Pio
A City on a Mountain
By Pascal P. Parente. S.T.D.,Ph.D.,J.C.B
page 50

In one of his spiritual exhortaions, Padre Pio had this to say about the virtue of obedience:
"Where there is no obedience, there is no virtue; where there is no virtue, there is no good; where there is no good, there is no love; where there is no love, there is no God; and where there is no God, there is no Paradise.

Guided by such wisdom, it was not difficult for him to be resigned to the Will of God as manifested in the command received from his ecclesiastical superiors. With obedience he had God and retained the living hope of never-ending bliss; what did he care if everything else was taken from him?

What did he care if everything else was taken from him?

 

[YinYangMom]

ncjohn:

I totally agree that it is a calling that must be discerned equally by the Church and the person feeling called. I went through that process myself in trying to discern a calling to the diaconate.

Let me ask in return: Do you truly believe that none of the innumerable men discerning callings really have them just by virtue of SSA and that this should just be a blanket ban? I have no problem with the “weeding out” process on an individual basis; I can’t see it being right the way it’s being done.

Peace,

Well I don’t know that it is a calling which must be discerned equally by the Church and the person at all. I believe if a person feels they are being called they must seek a spiritual advisor to help them discern their experiences. The Advisor, then, will confirm whether or not it is truly a calling and if it is, just what it is a calling toward…it may be the priesthood, it may be marriage, it may be a monastery, it may be social services.

As to your question to me…I don’t understand the question:

Do you truly believe…ok, opening my mind to check
that none … warning, I’m not one who leans toward the all or none approach to reasoning
of the innumerable… sounds like the ‘all’ approach…
men discerning callings…ok, now we’re getting somewhere…Do I truly believe that NONE of the many, many, many men discerning callings…
really have them…well I certainly don’t doubt they’re feeling some sort of pull toward a spiritual direction
just by virtue of SSA…and here’s where you lost me…what does this mean??? “callings” as I understand them are only by the virtue of the grace of God and nothing else. If there is any other source of said “callings” then that alone would lead me to suspect the authenticity of such a feeling. Also, I’d take issue with using ‘virtue’ and ‘SSA’ in the same sentence. SSA is not a virtue by any definition.
and that this should just be a blanket ban…I truly believe **any **policy regarding the conferring of Holy Orders should be set by and administered by the Holy See and not be dictated by secular society.

 

[YinYangMom]

contemplative:

What did he care if everything else was taken from him?

Right.
Do you have a question about that sentence?

It’s basically saying he was not concerned with earthly rules/constraints. With his eyes set on the Lord nothing else mattered except to serve Him and he recognized the heirarchy of the Church as established by Christ to be the instrument of God so he obeyed without regret, without feeling deprived, or wronged in any way - how could he if he places no emphasis on accommodations and personal rights (I mean, a true servant of the Lord has no personal rights as there is no person really, only God’s handiwork).

 

[otm]

Libero:

There seems to be sufficient evidence on that, if not compromised, then ignored. We virtually never hear about celibacy for heterosexual people. It is accepted as the norm amoung todays youth to have sex out of marriage, that you should as soon as you turn 16 / 18. I am not stating that any sin should be ignored, but why is it that homosexuality is so important? The fact that it is in comstant discussion here also says something. Has homosexuality ever been as important to the church as now? The church should start preaching all teachings equally, that is sufficient compromise. It is obvious that some teachings are not preached as others.

None of which answers the question.

I know of priests who, trained during the period where moral theology took a nose dive, have opinions about sexual behavior that are out of sync with the constantly held teachings of the Church.

One needs to distinguish between an opinion held by an individual as an individual, and the teaching authority (the Magisterium) of the Church.

Your issue about trying to down peddle the issue of homosexuality is the same tactic taken by those who want to down peddle discussion of abortion they try to say that the Church needs to be talking equally about other wrongs, particularly in the area of social responsibility.

There is no doubt that we need to, for example, use good stewardship of natual resources, and not overcut our forests, which in turn does direct damage on the fisheries.

The argument, however, makes a moral equivalent between causing a loss of fish with killing a human child. It is an attempt to take the focus off the major issue by substituting, or giving equivalent worth, to a lesser issue.

I am not saying that fornication is ritght; it is not; in fact, it is the leading cause of abortions due to the number of children conceived out of wedlock.

The two issues are not exactly the same, however, as fornication is not of the intrinsic evil that homosexuality is.

I

 

[otm]

YinYangMom:

That is my concern as well. That the Pope signs this document is not news, as the policy he is signing is not new.

What would be ‘news’ would be a declaration from the Pope that this document will now be enforced and have him outline how that will be done, and in what timeline.

I’m not holding my breath for that.

Me neither, and it is not for lack of respect for the Pope that I say that.

What some people cannot seem to understand is that the Pope does not personally micro manage the Church, and isn’t likely to start.

 

[contemplative]

Think of all the Holy men who have been denied priesthood and have settled on being a brother or once they were a priest they were not allowed to hear confessions or be the celebrant for Mass. These Holy men simply obeyed when perhaps they didn’t fully understand.

And more recently there was Fr. Solanus Casey O.F.M.
Solanus was designated to serve as a “simple” priest. This meant he was not permitted to preach doctrinal sermons nor hear confessions. Despite these restrictions, Fr. Solanus became the trusted confidante of many, providing reassuring words that were often accompanied by miraculous healings.