Pope Benedict 16 and Radical Traditionalists

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It’s possible…if they ever get over their Protester ways. Who knows. Most of them would not know Christ and His church if they ran into it like a brick wall. They love to whine about how deep they can bow and how reverent they are…all the while condeming everyone else. The Pharasee’s felt much the same. But as Christ said: “They were white washed tombs on the outside and dirty as sin on the inside.”

But then again…some of those dispicable twits became wonderful Christians and died for the faith. Hard to tell. They need to learn what Catholic is first. Perhaps Bennie XVI can teach them. 🙂
 
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Marie:
It’s possible…if they ever get over their Protester ways. Who knows. Most of them would not know Christ and His church if they ran into it like a brick wall. They love to whine about how deep they can bow and how reverent they are…all the while condeming everyone else. The Pharasee’s felt much the same. But as Christ said: “They were white washed tombs on the outside and dirty as sin on the inside.”

But then again…some of those dispicable twits became wonderful Christians and died for the faith. Hard to tell. They need to learn what Catholic is first. Perhaps Bennie XVI can teach them. 🙂
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I agree but also note that I’m (and most of us) are also still learning what it is to be Catholic. It’s a long journey.
 
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CooneyCA:
Sadly Pope Benedict XVI has been made out to be a conspirator against the message of Fatima. He has dismissed with little patience those who insist that Russia has not been consecrated and that the Vatican is hiding the “true” third message.

There have been a couple books specifically placing Cardinal Ratzinger in the forefront of, at best, those who do not believe in the specific Fatima message, and, at worst, an active subverter of the message and fulfillment of Our Lady’s wishes.

For many, this is all they know about our new Pope. I pray that now they will be able to witness a man who will defend the true faith without compromise.
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If that is so, then Father Nicholas Gruner and his fellow conspiracy theorists (and there are those on this forum) will just have to keep on waiting. How sad indeed…😦
 
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mtr01:
I disovered an interesting fact as I was debating another poster who claimed Pope Benedict’s views on the Eucharist were more Protestant than Catholic (I know, :whacky: ). Anyhow, it seems that apart from the expected liberal/heterodox contingent, the strongest opposition and criticisms of him came from the traditionalist/schismatics.

I’ve been trying to get my head around that one, and the best I could do is that his papacy would pretty much render their existence meaningless. I don’t think they will be able to really claim the pope adheres to heterodox or non traditional ideals, so they have to make it appear that he does to justify their existence.

At least, that’s the only thing I can think of.
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Let’s not forget that during his participation in the Second Vatican Council His Holiness was grouped among the “Progressives.” It doesn’t really surprise me that schismatic traditionalists would fault such a man’s theology. Maybe after a few hundred years their “more Catholic than the pope(s)” schtick will cause them to question the plausibility of a centuries-long interregnum, but until then they’ll keep banging their heads against the same old wall.

At the same time, if Benedict chooses to carry out his “reform of the reform” the traditionalists’ liturgical ammunition will decrease in direct proportion to how closely he moves the normative missal in the direction of the Pian missal.
 
There have been a couple books specifically placing Cardinal Ratzinger in the forefront of, at best, those who do not believe in the specific Fatima message, and, at worst, an active subverter of the message and fulfillment of Our Lady’s wishes.

Anyone who knows the story of Fatima in any kind of depth will know that the Vatican document “The Message of Fatima” (The official interpretation) IS a distortion of that message.

Where does Pope Benedict XVI stand on Marian dogma? From “The Message of Fatima”.

“And now they are told why they have been exposed to this moment: “in order to save souls”—to show the way to salvation. The words of the First Letter of Peter come to mind: “As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls” (1:9). To reach this goal, the way indicated —surprisingly for people from the Anglo-Saxon and German cultural world—is devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”

he contines…

*A brief comment may suffice to explain this. In biblical language, the “heart” indicates the centre of human life, the point where reason, will, temperament and sensitivity converge, where the person finds his unity and his interior orientation. According to Matthew 5:8, the “immaculate heart” is a heart which, with God’s grace, has come to perfect interior unity and therefore “sees God”. To be “devoted” to the Immaculate Heart of Mary means therefore to embrace this attitude of heart, which makes the fiat—“your will be done”—the defining centre of one’s whole life. It might be objected that we should not place a human being between ourselves and Christ. But then we remember that Paul did not hesitate to say to his communities: “imitate me” (1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 1 Th 1:6; 2 Th 3:7, 9). In the Apostle they could see concretely what it meant to follow Christ. But from whom might we better learn in every age than from the Mother of the Lord? *

His twist of the concept of the Immaculate Heart of Mary into a heart anyone can have who follows God can have is a distortion of the message of Fatima.

and later he continues…

*I would like finally to mention another key expression of the **“*secret” which has become justly famous: “my Immaculate Heart will triumph”. What does this mean? The Heart open to God, purified by contemplation of God, is stronger than guns and weapons of every kind.

He has clipped the first part of Our Lady’s words from the phrase “In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph” because he wants Fatima put firmly in the past. Again he twists the meaning of The Immaculate Heart of Mary to mean anyones heart open to God. The clipping of the words is a dishonest act and a distortion of the message of Fatima.

That is the mind of the man we have as Pope. A man with an “anglo-saxon german” mindset surprised by Marian devotion.

Watch out.
 
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dumspirospero:
I am hoping and praying that he will be able to reconcile with our separated bretheren…This split amongst Catholics and the schismatic traditionalist hurts the Body of Christ terribly…it is time to heal the wounds and become one, once again.
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Congradulations on the call dums. BTW, for those that don’t know, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was once known as the Holy Office of the Inquisition, and the prefect was once known as the Grand Inquisitor.
 
Hi,

I apologize if I’m mistaken about this, but hasn’t Joseph Ratzinger claimed that Lords Covenant with Israel remains and has not after all been fulfilled in the Catholic Church?

Is this not the most catastrophic heresy in two millennia of Christianity? Does this not mean, if it were possible, the end of the Catholic Church?
 
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judicame:
Hi,

I apologize if I’m mistaken about this, but hasn’t Joseph Ratzinger claimed that Lords Covenant with Israel remains and has not after all been fulfilled in the Catholic Church?

Is this not the most catastrophic heresy in two millennia of Christianity? Does this not mean, if it were possible, the end of the Catholic Church?
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Answer:

No

and

NO.

:rolleyes:
 
I replied "maybe"but could also be convinced to vote “they’re too far gone”.

(FYI, RE:Fatima - It’s a PRIVATE revelation folks, you aren’t even required to believe it. Let this whole issue with the secrets of Fatima rest.)

I’ve been reading “The Ratzinger Report”. It was B-16’s interview with an Italian reporter back in 1985. Ratzinger’s take is that he has not changed his views since Vatican II, it’s all the dissenters and radicals and liturgical innovators who used Vatican II as an excuse to let the “smoke of Satan” enter the Church.

The point of departure is this: Ratzinger sees that Vatican II is in basic continuity with the Church’s sacred tradition. It builds off of the previous councils of Vatican I and Trent. He disagrees vehemently with those who see it as some sort of radical break, whether they be liberal dissenter heretics or traditionalist/schismatics. Both groups cling to the same heresy, that V-II was a radical break from the past. To the liberals, he says they go well beyond the council as they didn’t see it as liberating enough. To the traditionalists, he says that it is ridiculous to claim that V-II disregarded the previous councils as it builds specifically off of V-I and Trent and takes their findings as normative (and quotes them liberally).

As long as the SSPX and sedevacantists reject V-II, they will never rejoin the Church. I have heard some SSPX’s state that all they want is a Church-wide right for any priest to celebrate the Tridentine mass. Were such a right to be recognized by Rome, you may very well get many to return to the Church. However, I doubt that that is the only point of departure and my guess is that the SSPXers will still find fault with B-16.

That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.
 
Both groups cling to the same heresy, that V-II was a radical break from the past. To the liberals, he says they go well beyond the council as they didn’t see it as liberating enough. To the traditionalists, he says that it is ridiculous to claim that V-II disregarded the previous councils as it builds specifically off of V-I and Trent and takes their findings as normative (and quotes them liberally).

The Vatican II proclamation that Muslims worship the same God as us IS a radical break with the past.

Unless you want to show me where we claimed that before V-II.

I think the “traditionalists” (ie. those who wonder what was wrong with Catholic teaching before V-II) have a point.
 
(FYI, RE:Fatima - It’s a PRIVATE revelation folks, you aren’t even required to believe it. Let this whole issue with the secrets of Fatima rest.)

We its nice to know that when God works his grandest miracle in 2000 years we can safely ignore it.

Fatima won’t rest - it can’t - it isn’t finished yet.

The Holy Father has yet to consecrate Russia.

Maybe when the persecution starts to bite things will look different.
 
In response to Marie’s snide remark about traditionalists,
I have to say that I know several of them, including a couple of sedevacantists, and I will testify in any court that they are among the most godfearing and humble people I have ever met. “holier than thou” and “more catholic than the pope” are just stop-gap arguments that anti-trads use when they can’t disprove with church documents a particular traditionalist argument. They are, in fact, good people concerned for the welfare of Catholicism in it’s full doctrinal integrity. They are not the nasty wackos Marie makes them out to be.
Love,
Jaypeeto
 
They are, in fact, good people concerned for the welfare of Catholicism in it’s full doctrinal integrity.

Absolutely so!

If only others were as concerned.
 
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Jaypeeto:
In response to Marie’s snide remark about traditionalists,
I have to say that I know several of them, including a couple of sedevacantists, and I will testify in any court that they are among the most godfearing and humble people I have ever met. “holier than thou” and “more catholic than the pope” are just stop-gap arguments that anti-trads use when they can’t disprove with church documents a particular traditionalist argument. They are, in fact, good people concerned for the welfare of Catholicism in it’s full doctrinal integrity. They are not the nasty wackos Marie makes them out to be.
Love,
Jaypeeto
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That’s your interpetation of my post about Traditionalists, not mine. A true Trad is not the ones I speak of. I have lot’s of Traditional friends. It’s the fruitcake crowd of which I speak…and there are plenty of those who wreck havoc for those who are true Traditionalist. So let’s get that straight…ok! 😉
 
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Marie:
That’s your interpetation of my post about Traditionalists, not mine. A true Trad is not the ones I speak of. I have lot’s of Traditional friends. It’s the fruitcake crowd of which I speak…and there are plenty of those who wreck havoc for those who are true Traditionalist. So let’s get that straight…ok! 😉
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Ohhh, you’re talking about the neotrads.
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
Ohhh, you’re talking about the neotrads.
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😃 Actually I prefer the term Pope Benedict XVI uses in speaking of them…Pope Benedict has also been critical of the “right,” particularly followers of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. He has called the positions of such **ultra-traditionalists ** “absurd.”
 
It’s the fruitcake crowd of which I speak…and there are plenty of those who wreck havoc for those who are true Traditionalist.

Marie, who are the fruitcake crowd? And can you document with official magisterial teachings any area where they are in heresy?
Sincerely, Jaypeeto
 
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Jaypeeto:
It’s the fruitcake crowd of which I speak…and there are plenty of those who wreck havoc for those who are true Traditionalist.

Marie, who are the fruitcake crowd? And can you document with official magisterial teachings any area where they are in heresy?
Sincerely, Jaypeeto
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See above post…Pope Benedict has also been critical of the “right,” particularly followers of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. He has called the positions of such ultra-traditionalists “absurd.”
 
This is what bugs me. Catholics today bewail and lament the “schism” of Catholic traditionalists, who deny NO Catholic dogma, yet willingly fraternize with the Eastern Orthodox who ARE Schismatics and who ALSO are HERETICS, seeing that they deny the papacy. Yet Catholics and the Church today regard THESE schismatics as “true and particular churches” with “valid sacraments” all seven of them, yet say that today’s “schismatic” traditionalists have a valid eucharist, but NOT valid sacraments of confession, matrimony, etc. And todays Catholics and Church fraternize willingly with protestant heretics and every other religion under the sun, but bemoan “schismatic” Catholic Traditionalists. This strikes me as the height of hypocrisy. And the pope himself, the previous pope, signed numerous agreements with Schismatic and Heretical Eastern Orthodox prelates promising that Catholics would NOT TRY TO CONVERT these heresy-believing, schismatic Eastern Orthodox. He signed such agreements with Teoctist, the schismatic and heretical orthodox Patriarch of Romania, as well as with “Pope” Shenouda of the Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt. This is pure hypocrisy at it’s worst. I don’t care what ANYBODY says.
Love,
Jaypeeto
 
Jaypeeto you are right.

What was it St Basil said?

“Only one offense is now vigorously punished—an accurate observance of our fathers’ traditions”
 
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