Pope Benedict admits evidence for evolution

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Consider this, if God created the earth 6 thousand years ago and made it to look billions of years old, that would be deception. God does not deceive nor can he be deceived. So, if the earth appears billions of years old, then it probably is. I am very glad the Pope made his declaration.
That makes it that no matter what you observe God created it that way, else you’d not observe it to be that way.

Originally (in Darwin’s day) they believe the earth to be maybe a few million years ago. Obviously God deceived them to believe that and every time they’ve put the age of the earth back, God’s been there tricking them until at last we’ve got it right!
 
Granted the Eastern Orthodox believe in intelligent design, but is there a leaning one way or another on evolution within intelligent design? Are there a majority of theologians that lean one way or another? Just curious.
Long ago, in the 4th Century to be precise, Saint Basil warned us against tying our faith to science, because scientists are always contradicting themselves
 
By creationism, I mean believing that God literally created the universe, the earth and everything on it, and Adam & Eve, all in 6 days.

Yes, we must believe that God created everything and that Adam & Eve were the first humans, but we are not required to believe that they were brought into existence within 6 days. One can believe that evolution lead to the first humans, who would be Adam & Eve.

God could have made the universe, the earth and everything on it, and Adam & Eve all by way of evolution. That is consistent with believing that God created everything and that there was a literal Adam & Eve.
And God just decided to place a soul in an ape-like creature to make it human? I thought the soul came into being at conception (according to Catholic belief)
 
Thanks for the update on the present Pope and evolution. I’ll wait until his and Cardinal Schonborn’s book Creation and Evolution appears in English.

He’s said similar things in the past. Examples:

No problem with human evolution:

“…but is it not ultimately disproved by our scientific knowledge of how the human being evolved from the animal kingdom? Now, more reflective spirits have long been aware that there is no either-or here. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the ‘project’ of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities…It is the affair of the natural sciences to explain how the tree of life in particular continues to grow and how new branches shoot out from it. This is not a matter for faith…”

And accepts intelligent design:

“But we must have the audacity to say that the great projects of the living creation are not the products of chance and error. Nor are they the products of a selective process to which divine predicates can be attributed in illogical, unscientific, and even mythic fashion. The great projects of the living creation point to a creating Reason and show us a creating Intelligence, and they do so more luminously and radiantly today than ever before. Thus we can say today with a new certitude and joyousness that the human being is indeed a divine project, which only the creating Intelligence was strong and great and audacious enough to conceive of. Human beings are not a mistake but something willed; they are the fruit of love. They can disclose in themselves, in the bold project that they are, the language of the creating Intelligence…”

“In the Beginning…” : A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall (Eerdmans, 1986, 1995)

Phil P
 
“No on should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory” said St Ephraim the Syrian

St. Basil the Great in his Hexatemeron says “Therefore, let it be understood as it has been written.”
 
Which one of these did God deceive us on?

Here is a short list of changed theories.
“Homo sapiens neanderthalensis (Neanderthal man) - 150 years ago Neanderthal reconstructions were stooped and very much like an ‘ape-man’. It is now admitted that the supposedly stooped posture was due to disease and that Neanderthal is just a variation of the human kind.
Ramapithecus - once widely regarded as the ancestor of humans, it has now been realised that it is merely an extinct type of orangutan (an ape).
Eoanthropus (Piltdown man) - a hoax based on a human skull cap and an orangutan’s jaw. It was widely publicized as the missing link for 40 years.
Hesperopithecus (Nebraska man) - based on a single tooth of a type of pig now only living in Paraguay.
Pithecanthropus (Java man) - now renamed to Homo erectus.
Australopithecus africanus - this was at one time promoted as the missing link. It is no longer considered to be on the line from apes to humans. It is very ape-like.
Sinanthropus (Peking man) was once presented as an ape-man but has now been reclassified as Homo erectus.”
answersingenesis.org/Docs/263.asp
 
And God just decided to place a soul in an ape-like creature to make it human? I thought the soul came into being at conception (according to Catholic belief)
In evolution, at some point, the evolutionary creature evolved into what we know today as human. At some point, the ape creature became a human being. That human being was conceived with a soul. Not an ape-like creature. The first humans. Adam & Eve.
“No on should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory” said St Ephraim the Syrian
St. Basil the Great in his Hexatemeron says “Therefore, let it be understood as it has been written.”
We imitate the saints for their wisdom and holy lives they lead, but their words are not infallible. When THE POPE infallibly tells me I must believe God created everything, including human beings, in 6 days, then I will believe it. Until then, personally, I believe that God created the universe, the earth and everything in it, and human beings, through the laws of physics and evolution.
 
In evolution, at some point, the evolutionary creature evolved into what we know today as human. At some point, the ape creature became a human being. That human being was conceived with a soul. Not an ape-like creature. The first humans. Adam & Eve.
Can we assume that there were more than two in the population of this group of creatures? Did God just choose two out of the group to instill a soul, or were there only one male and one female left?

Perhaps God put a soul in A-creature and E-creature first, turning them into Adam, and Eve respectively, and then put souls in others of the same species too.

Have you got any Church Fathers to back you up on your theories?🤷
 
Can we assume that there were more than two in the population of this group of creatures? Did God just choose two out of the group to instill a soul, or were there only one male and one female left?

Perhaps God put a soul in A-creature and E-creature first, turning them into Adam, and Eve respectively, and then put souls in others of the same species too.

Have you got any Church Fathers to back you up on your theories?🤷
As you know, no one knows for sure how God created humans. That is why we have these debates. That is why the Church does not require us to believe either way. Until the Church does require one way or the other, you would be wise not to ridicule anyone for their beliefs.
 
There’s a big difference between the claims of physicists and chemists and biologists about how the world works today, and the claims biologists make about what, historically, has occurred.
Yes, but if we can accept as reliable the evidence we see of how the universe was created, why can’t we accept the evidence of evolution as reliable?
Being a creationist doesn’t mean denying the evidence that we see exists today: mutation, speciation, population change, etc. It simply means rejecting that as a historical explanation of the origin of life, and especially, mankind.
Why is evolution incompatible with the idea that God created everything? As long as we don’t deny the Original Sin of Adam and Eve, we are not guilty of apostasy.
The evolution that creationists reject is a historical theory masquerading as science.
Oh? Care to demonstrate how?

The fact that many evolutionary biologists are atheists does not make evolutionary biology an atheistic science.
Which is one reason why creationists are so opposed to evolution. Is a creation that improves only by death and pain and suffering something most people would call “good”?
Well, for one thing, pain and suffering are a part of reality. In fact, suffering is one of the ways that grace enters our lives. Evolution could be viewed as one of the goods that comes of suffering, perhaps.
(who doesn’t anathemize those who seek to reconcile evolution and Christian belief, but who doesn’t find evolution a compelling historical theory)
You still haven’t told me why you feel this way.

Peace,
Dante
 
As you know, no one knows for sure how God created humans. That is why we have these debates. That is why the Church does not require us to believe either way. Until the Church does require one way or the other, you would be wise not to ridicule anyone for their beliefs.
Actually we know quite a bit. Genesis says God created Adam from dust. Not “God created Adam by infusing an animal (ape-like) with a soul”

And I’ve yet to see any Church Father supporting the making of an animal into a human by infusion of a soul
 
Why is evolution incompatible with the idea that God created everything? As long as we don’t deny the Original Sin of Adam and Eve, we are not guilty of apostasy.
Peace,
Dante
The difference is

Evolution : Man evolved from lesser beings through a method wholly naturalistic

and

Bible : Man was created for a purpose

There’s conflict on; who, how and why.
 
Which one of these did God deceive us on?

Here is a short list of changed theories.
“Homo sapiens neanderthalensis (Neanderthal man) - 150 years ago Neanderthal reconstructions were stooped and very much like an ‘ape-man’. It is now admitted that the supposedly stooped posture was due to disease and that Neanderthal is just a variation of the human kind.
Ramapithecus - once widely regarded as the ancestor of humans, it has now been realised that it is merely an extinct type of orangutan (an ape).
Eoanthropus (Piltdown man) - a hoax based on a human skull cap and an orangutan’s jaw. It was widely publicized as the missing link for 40 years.
Hesperopithecus (Nebraska man) - based on a single tooth of a type of pig now only living in Paraguay.
Pithecanthropus (Java man) - now renamed to Homo erectus.
Australopithecus africanus - this was at one time promoted as the missing link. It is no longer considered to be on the line from apes to humans. It is very ape-like.
Sinanthropus (Peking man) was once presented as an ape-man but has now been reclassified as Homo erectus.”
answersingenesis.org/Docs/263.asp
“When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?” - John Maynard Keynes

Science is not in the business of theology. All scientific theories can change when the facts change.

The attitude of the church to usury, slavery and crusades has changed over time. Your point applies to both sides.

rossum
 
“When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?” - John Maynard Keynes
That’s the problem with ‘facts’ - which are, simply evidence as currently perceived by man. For, there was once a time when Neptunism was ‘fact’.

One then needs to rely on something other than man. I know it’s difficult for modernist minds to put their faith in God, but that’s it.
Science is not in the business of theology. All scientific theories can change when the facts change.
And there’s the problem. Right now there are people out there who belittle Christianity (people such as Richard Dawkins) because they think a current set of scientific beliefs are more ‘real’ than Christian beliefs. In 50 years time those scientific beliefs may have perished and new scientific beliefs emerged and people will be just as sure of those.
The attitude of the church to usury, slavery and crusades has changed over time. Your point applies to both sides.
Firstly the issue of slavery is not bound to Christian faith. Usury has always been a sin.

I as an Orthodox can say that we never had ‘the crusades’ as a religious form of expression - as far as I’m aware.

As an Orthodox we believe that the church’s teachings on dogma have never changed… to the point where we believe that the things taught at the time of the Apostles are what we’re taught now.
 
“No on should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory” said St Ephraim the Syrian

St. Basil the Great in his Hexatemeron says “Therefore, let it be understood as it has been written.”
Against you is St Augustine, who thought that creation was instantaneous and hence was not a six day literalist. There is a long history of discussion within the church about how Genesis is to be interpreted.

rossum
 
Have you got any Church Fathers to back you up on your theories?🤷
When Church Fathers speak about the matters of faith is very different when they speak about the matters of science. Once you start taking the Bible as a scientific book and Church Fathers as scientists you will get into various kinds of problems.
 
I will agree with the holly father ,Without GOD it can not be any Evolution .The Bible says after GOD create everything ,He rest .meaning that God probabily schaduel everething that hapen in the univers.If that hapening now,that do not mean it is not GOD work. SO evolution is part of God creation.
Thank you:) 🙂
 
Against you is St Augustine, who thought that creation was instantaneous and hence was not a six day literalist. There is a long history of discussion within the church about how Genesis is to be interpreted.

rossum
one swallow does NOT a summer make.

You put one example forward as a ‘long history of discussion within the church about how Genesis is to be interpreted’

No where did Augustine believe in anything other than God creating things.

No evidence has been put forward to suggest a Church Father believed in apes being given souls

However in the interests of discussion let us examine some opinions, of opinions. Some claim that Augustine viewed Genesis’ account of creation as less than a literal event.

“Though creation has been widely discussed, the length of the six days of creation, as held throughout the ages of church history, was generally agreed: they were ordinary or sidereal days. There were few exceptions to this: Clement, Origin and Augustine being the main ones. Clement and Origin, of course, followed an allegorical method of interpretation and denied the historicity of much of the Bible. Augustine’s statements, on the other hand, are unclear but it seems that he believed that God actually created the world all at once (i.e., in an instant of time, the six days being repetitions of the one day of creation) but related the story of a six-day creation to us to accommodate our limited understanding. To be sure, there is much in the Bible that is difficult (if not impossible) for our finite minds to grasp, but in this case one must wonder how a six-day account would be any easier to comprehend than an instantaneous creation. In any case, the non-literal views of the days of creation were uncommon and not highly regarded”
rcus.org/main/pub_days_of_creation.asp

Despite this “Augustine maintained that transformation from one kind of creature into another was impossible and that the earth was created around 5500 B.C.”

Fr Seraphim Rose, (2000) “Genesis Creation and Early Man: The Orthodox Christian Vision”, (Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood; Platina, CA), p79.

Irenaeus (Bishop of Lyons c.177-200) says “…in the first Adam we offended God by not performing his command; in the second Adam we have been reconciled, becoming ‘obedient unto death’.” Adversus Haereses v.xvi.3
“Fellowship with God is light and life…separation from God is death.” Ibid v.xxvii.2
Right down to our own day…
“A knowledge of the beginning and end of all things is essential for us to understand the purpose of our existence here on this earth, and what lies beyond it” Fr.Seraphim Rose’s commentary on St. Symeon The New Theologian’s “The First-Created Man.”

They are talking about an historical person, a real Adam.

It goes beyond this too, to the implications of evolutionary theory…

“If you believe that man came up from savagery, you will interpret all past history in those terms. But according to Orthodoxy, man fell from Paradise. In evolutionary philosophy there is no room for a supernatural state of Adam. Thos who want to keep both Christianity and evolutionism, therefore, are forced to stick an artificial Paradise onto an ape-like creature. These are obviously two different systems which cannot be mixed.”
Fr. Seraphim Rose, "Genesis, Creation and Early Ma: The Orthodox Christian Vision, pp324-5
“The most important question which is raised for Orthodox theology by the modern theory of evolution is the nature of man, and in particular the nature of the first-created man Adam.” (Ibid, p46)
 
When Church Fathers speak about the matters of faith is very different when they speak about the matters of science. Once you start taking the Bible as a scientific book and Church Fathers as scientists you will get into various kinds of problems.
But they say we have to have faith in creation!
 
“And He is without beginning, because He is unbegotten; and He is unchangeable, because He is immortal. And he is called God [Qeos] on account of His having placed [teqeikenai] all things on security afforded by Himself; and on account of [qeein], for qeein means running, and moving, and being active, and nourishing, and foreseeing, and governing, and making all things alive. But he is Lord, because He rules over the universe; Father, because he is before all things; Fashioner and Maker, because He is creator and maker of the universe; the Highest, because of His being above all; and Almighty, because He Himself rules and embraces all. For the heights of heaven, and the depths of the abysses, and the ends of the earth, are in His hand, and there is no place of His rest. For the heavens are His work, the earth is His creation, the sea is His handiwork; man is His formation and His image; sun, moon, and stars are His elements, made for signs, and seasons, and days, and years, that they may serve and be slaves to man; and all things God has made out of things that were not into things that are, in order that through His works His greatness may be known and understood.” So said Theophiuls of Antioch in “To Autolycus”
earlychristianwritings.com/text/theophilus-book1.html
 
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