Pope Benedict and Bishop Williamson

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sonofourlady

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It has been said here that by lifting the excommunication of the SSPX Bishops, that Pope Benedict XVI, is going to be able to have a closer hand in how they conduct themselves. Example being Bishop Williamson’s comments about the Holocaust.

I never considered how true it was until reading the Bible last night. Jesus, as God, knew everything that was to happen. He knew that Judas would betray him and there was nothing he could do about it (free will). One might wonder, why Jesus had Judas chosen in the first place. The Bible in St. John’s Gospel said he was a thief, and probably did other sinful acts as well while under Jesus’ care. Perhaps Jesus felt that the best way to try to save Judas, was to keep him close to him. Like that expression in business: Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer!

Thoughts?
 
Bishop Williamson isn’t Judas. In fact, his statements on the Shoah have nothing to do with Church Doctrine.
 
sonofourlady said:
I He knew that Judas would betray him and there was nothing he could do about it (free will). One might wonder, why Jesus had Judas chosen in the first place. The Bible in St. John’s Gospel said he was a thief, and probably did other sinful acts as well while under Jesus’ care. Perhaps Jesus felt that the best way to try to save Judas, was to keep him close to him. Like that expression in business: Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer!

Thoughts?
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I think you have a valid comparison. I think it is noteworthy and promising that Bp. Williamson has agreed to re-think the subject and consider he could be wrong.
 
Everytime I read something about what Bishop Williamson said and the reactions I can’t help but think of the saying “The wise man knows when to keep silent” I know I probably didn’t quote it acurately but I do believe it’s in the Bible. Also, it makes me grateful that on a grand scale pretty much no one cares what I say-because there have been quite a few times I’ve start shooting my mouth off about something and later I had to eat crow about it. But the whole world didn’t know about it.
 
sonofourlady said:
It has been said here that by lifting the excommunication of the SSPX Bishops, that Pope Benedict XVI, is going to be able to have a closer hand in how they conduct themselves. Example being Bishop Williamson’s comments about the Holocaust.

I never considered how true it was until reading the Bible last night. Jesus, as God, knew everything that was to happen. He knew that Judas would betray him and there was nothing he could do about it (free will). One might wonder, why Jesus had Judas chosen in the first place. The Bible in St. John’s Gospel said he was a thief, and probably did other sinful acts as well while under Jesus’ care. Perhaps Jesus felt that the best way to try to save Judas, was to keep him close to him. Like that expression in business: Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer!

Thoughts?
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hey son, so jesus was trying to save judas?
 
Bishop Williamson a possible Judas ? Who is he betraying ? The court of world opinion, which he was never loyal to in the first place ?
 
sonofourlady said:
It has been said here that by lifting the excommunication of the SSPX Bishops, that Pope Benedict XVI, is going to be able to have a closer hand in how they conduct themselves. Example being Bishop Williamson’s comments about the Holocaust.

I never considered how true it was until reading the Bible last night. Jesus, as God, knew everything that was to happen. He knew that Judas would betray him and there was nothing he could do about it (free will). One might wonder, why Jesus had Judas chosen in the first place. The Bible in St. John’s Gospel said he was a thief, and probably did other sinful acts as well while under Jesus’ care. Perhaps Jesus felt that the best way to try to save Judas, was to keep him close to him. Like that expression in business: Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer!

Thoughts?
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Wrong.

Lifting the excommunication is not so that the Pope can have a closer hand on them like Judas.

In fact, the Pope NEEDS THE SSPX because they are a HUGE AID to fixing all that is wrong in the Church today. And the liberals all hate it, hate the SSPX, hate the TLM and now Pope Benedict.

Once the discussions begin - the Church will realize all the errors of what came after Vatican II - all the eroneous interpretations and how the progressives used the documents to put forth an agenda the Council fathers never envisioned. [Vatican II did not create Mass facing the people, total vernacular liturgies, females in the Sanctuary, lay readers, lay ministers of Holy Communion at Mass, communion in the hand for example] Archbishop Lefebvre signed all those documents inlcuding the one on the liturgy - if you recall - and rebelled when the progressives took them and misinterpreted them- thus the anarchy of the past 40 years that continues today.

The dialogue with the SSPX will change much in the Church - clarify much that has been taught wrongly over the past 40 years - it will take a lot of time- and we will not be alive here on earth to see it happen - this is just the beginning.

Ken
 
I feel very uneasy about the unlifting of the excomunication. I feel like we are being betrayed. BenedictXVII either has a soft spot for tradition,or he is very evil. I do pray that for that soft spot. I also know that he has been talking with the Anglican church and is also ready to bring them back to church. Even giving them there own space in Vatican city. Long Live Christ the King!
 
I really don’t think that the SSPX is big enough or as influential as some people believe. They are a relatively small religious order as compared to the major ones (even after years of decline on the latter’s part). If anything it will be the Church which shall change the SSPX. If reunion occurs, the Society will still be traditional, but probably in a more muted fashion, like Campo’s.

You can already see it starting to occur in the way the SSPX has bent over backwards to apologize for bishop Williamson (even going so far as to remove various articles from their web sites which could be considered anti Semitic. When the time comes, they will probably begin to act the same way about other topics. still being against them but taking a more moderate approach to presentation.
 
sonofourlady said:
It has been said here that by lifting the excommunication of the SSPX Bishops, that Pope Benedict XVI, is going to be able to have a closer hand in how they conduct themselves. Example being Bishop Williamson’s comments about the Holocaust.

I never considered how true it was until reading the Bible last night. Jesus, as God, knew everything that was to happen. He knew that Judas would betray him and there was nothing he could do about it (free will). One might wonder, why Jesus had Judas chosen in the first place. The Bible in St. John’s Gospel said he was a thief, and probably did other sinful acts as well while under Jesus’ care. Perhaps Jesus felt that the best way to try to save Judas, was to keep him close to him. Like that expression in business: Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer!

Thoughts?
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My thoughts: analogizing the SSPX with the enemies of the Church is a bit like calling Freemasons friends of the Church. an outright LIE.
 
Ottaviani said:
My thoughts: analogizing the SSPX with the enemies of the Church is a bit like calling Freemasons friends of the Church. an outright LIE.
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Two logical fallacies: and analogy can not be “a lie.” It is accurate, inaccurate; good or bad, but not a lie. Second, your post, like kleary’s only begs the question. It makes since only if one already assumes the SSPX is right and the Holy Father is wrong.

Perhaps you can point out why the analogy is a poor one? It does not imply that the SSPX is evil, only in need of closer supervision. I do not see how this can be denied since their predecessor is on record with one very serious act of disobedience. Whether on agrees with that act or not, it is understandable that the Holy Father would like to eliminate any such reoccurance by making the bishops in the SSPX both accountable and receptive to what he has to say.
 
kleary said:
Wrong.

Lifting the excommunication is not so that the Pope can have a closer hand on them like Judas.

In fact, the Pope NEEDS THE SSPX because they are a HUGE AID to fixing all that is wrong in the Church today. And the liberals all hate it, hate the SSPX, hate the TLM and now Pope Benedict.

Once the discussions begin - the Church will realize all the errors of what came after Vatican II - all the eroneous interpretations and how the progressives used the documents to put forth an agenda the Council fathers never envisioned. [Vatican II did not create Mass facing the people, total vernacular liturgies, females in the Sanctuary, lay readers, lay ministers of Holy Communion at Mass, communion in the hand for example] Archbishop Lefebvre signed all those documents inlcuding the one on the liturgy - if you recall - and rebelled when the progressives took them and misinterpreted them- thus the anarchy of the past 40 years that continues today.

The dialogue with the SSPX will change much in the Church - clarify much that has been taught wrongly over the past 40 years - it will take a lot of time- and we will not be alive here on earth to see it happen - this is just the beginning.

Ken
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Actually, the Pope lifted the excommunications of the Bishops as an act of mercy and to reunite the Catholic Church. They are to obedient to the Pope…not vice versa. The lifting of the excommunications doesn’t imply that they were right all along at all. We will all have to wait and see what happens next. The church on earth is the militant church there will always be suffering and striving to do the Will of God…we all have to pray that the church becomes completely united according to God’s will and remember our enemies are not each other but the fallen angels. We are at war while the true enemies are united; we have been divided for far to long. As I recall most of the greatest saints were raised up in times of great turmoil in the church those who come to mind are St Francis, St John of the Cross, St Therese, St Catherine of Sienna God worked through all of them because of their humble submission to God and their superiors not from being defiant to the Pope. God just doesn’t work that way.
 
Lainey63 said:
Actually, the Pope lifted the excommunications of the Bishops as an act of mercy and to reunite the Catholic Church.
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But also an act of justice, please don’t forget.
They are to obedient to the Pope…not vice versa. The lifting of the excommunications doesn’t imply that they were right all along at all.
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Yeah, but when the SSPX bishops haven’t had to come in line with any of the VII novelties, it doesn’t imply that they were wrong all along, now, does it? If their excommunications were lifted without having to do anything, what does that mean about their excommunications in the first place?

First the ‘pro multis’ debate (SSPX won that one). Then the “abrogation: yes or no” debate (SSPX won that one too). Then the excommunications being lifted without having to change their position…? Man, it’s almost like, the SSPX has basically just stuck with Catholic Tradition…Like, they don’t have to speak for themselves because 1960 years of Church history is speaking for them…
God just doesn’t work that way.
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I’m glad that one of us knows how God works…
 
UnusMilitum said:
But also an act of justice, please don’t forget.

Yeah, but when the SSPX bishops haven’t had to come in line with any of the VII novelties, it doesn’t imply that they were wrong all along, now, does it? If their excommunications were lifted without having to do anything, what does that mean about their excommunications in the first place?

First the ‘pro multis’ debate (SSPX won that one). Then the “abrogation: yes or no” debate (SSPX won that one too). Then the excommunications being lifted without having to change their position…? Man, it’s almost like, the SSPX has basically just stuck with Catholic Tradition…Like, they don’t have to speak for themselves because 1960 years of Church history is speaking for them…

I’m glad that one of us knows how God works…
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I didn’t realize this was a contest. Who wins this argument and who wins that one. But apparently that is very important to you…so rock on with your bad self…
 
rosie2013 said:
I feel very uneasy about the unlifting of the excomunication. I feel like we are being betrayed. BenedictXVII either has a soft spot for tradition,or he is very evil. I do pray that for that soft spot. I also know that he has been talking with the Anglican church and is also ready to bring them back to church. Even giving them there own space in Vatican city. Long Live Christ the King!
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Be not afraid.

Remember the reasons why the bishops were excommunicated: it had nothing to do with the rejection of Vatican 2. They were excommunicated because of their illicit consecration as bishops.

All excommunications are intended to be lifted; they are not ecclesial death sentences. An excommunication is designed to bring about communication.
 
UnusMilitum said:
But also an act of justice, please don’t forget.

Yeah, but when the SSPX bishops haven’t had to come in line with any of the VII novelties, it doesn’t imply that they were wrong all along, now, does it? If their excommunications were lifted without having to do anything, what does that mean about their excommunications in the first place?
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You have a habit of begging the question, which works well as one is only talking to like minded folks. Christ died for us while we were yet in our sins. Does this translate to evidence that our sins were not all that bad? Mercy is a concept our human element has a hard time understanding. Yet in our humanity the SSPX, liberals and even Jews have read into this act far more than it is.
 
Why would Benedict XVI unexcommunicate the 4 bishops of the SSPX? I think that the post councilor church needs the SSPX. I have read that on any given Sunday there are more parishioners in the SSXP churches in France and Germany than at the Vatican II churches. Income has been drying up in the post councilor churches because of sex and embezzlement scandals. Billions of dollars have been lost. It is closing schools and selling off churches and assets daily, and its seminaries and many of its churches sit empty.

Bishop Williamson’s viewpoint on a matter of secular history, unpopular as it may be, should have nothing to do with his standing as a Catholic. It is totally unrelated to his faith.

It’s funny, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have worshiped side by side with Jews, Muslims, Protestants and Pagans without any insistence that they renounce their false religions, no problem. But Williamson is ostracized because of his unpopular viewpoint on a matter of secular history.

Another thing I have found interesting is that if Benedict XVI has such a love for the Traditional Mass and is trying to turn the church towards tradition, why has he never celebrated it in public? But he is scheduled to co-worship with the Muslims again when he visits the Holy Land in May 8-15, 2009. He will pray Mohammedan-style with the imams on the prayer rug in Jordan’s largest mosque.

So much for Catholic Tradition.
 
Lainey63 said:
I didn’t realize this was a contest. Who wins this argument and who wins that one.
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It’s not a contest, nor should it be one! It’s not about winning anything (except souls, of course)…It’s just about truth and justice and righting whatever has gone wrong. My point was that it is very telling when Rome starts backpedalling (or ‘clarifying’, if it suits you better) on a bunch of issues that the SSPX has been ‘claiming’ since the beginning of time. It’s about time there’s a positive change in the church! Thank you, Papa. Thank you, SSPX. Not bad for a cultish, heretical and schismatic fringe group (LOL).
But apparently that is very important to you…
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It should be very important to every serious Catholic. Why is Truth so underappreciated by many in the Church?
so rock on with your bad self…
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I’m not a sede…I’d rather continue to rock on with Peter than with just myself, thank you very much.
 
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