Pope Benedict and the Reform of the Reform

[brotherhrolf]

The Gloria, Credo and Pater Noster at the Papal Mass in Sidney today were straight out of what I remember as a kid. No. No one participated at Mass when I was a kid…we were asleep, daydreaming, or busily saying our rosaries. I had no problem singing along with them even after 40+ years.

 

[palmas85]

The Gloria, Credo and Pater Noster at the Papal Mass in Sidney today were straight out of what I remember as a kid. No. No one participated at Mass when I was a kid…we were asleep, daydreaming, or busily saying our rosaries. I had no problem singing along with them even after 40+ years.

No you didn’t Brother,:tsktsk: Its impossible. You are caught up in a Traditionalist fantasy fueled by memories that never were reality. You must always remember that none of us knew or cared what was going on as long as we were in and out of Mass in 7 minutes or less.

You have got to get down to the Insectarium if you have not already done so… It is well worth it.

 

[AMDGtoo]

No you didn’t Brother,:tsktsk: Its impossible. You are caught up in a Traditionalist fantasy fueled by memories that never were reality.

So it’s just fantasy memories that never were. Good to know. But the fantasy must be real powerful in order to explain the well-worn assortment of missals and response cards (that appear to show that they did indeed “participate” in the Mass) that I found when going through deceased parents and grandparents things (God rest their souls) plus my own worn missals and response cards that I saved. And then when the other person mentioned the “dreaded clicker” that the nuns used to keep us kids in line at Mass, I couldn’t help but smile in memory. (I’m sure that there’s a name for folks having similar imaginary memories. )

 

[LRThunder]

So it’s just fantasy memories that never were. Good to know. But the fantasy must be real powerful in order to explain the well-worn assortment of missals and response cards (that appear to show that they did indeed “participate” in the Mass) that I found when going through deceased parents and grandparents things (God rest their souls) plus my own worn missals and response cards that I saved. And then when the other person mentioned the “dreaded clicker” that the nuns used to keep us kids in line at Mass, I couldn’t help but smile in memory. (I’m sure that there’s a name for folks having similar imaginary memories. )

I think palmas was being sarcastic, imitating the responses of those vehemently opposed to the Latin Mass.

 

[JRKH]

OK folks, let’s not get too carried away with the sarcasm. (although some is great fun).
The Truth, of course, lies somewhere in the middle.
Blessed Pope John XXIII did call Vatican II to address real issues in the Church.
There certainly were people before the reforms who “snuck out” right after communion just as they do now. There were then, as there are now, those who only go as an obligation. They hear the words but do they understand them - even in their own language.

If the reforms, as implemented, were to solve participation issues and draw us closer to The Church, why did vocations dry up? Why are there no religious to teach in our School? Why are there abuses in the Mass? Why are there now a host of new ills in the Church that need to be addressed?

As JimR said, the Changes must be in peoples hearts. All the Holy Father can do is try to foster a new reverence and orthodox leadership.

Gotta Go.

Peace
James

 

[nightwalker]

No you didn’t Brother,:tsktsk: Its impossible. You are caught up in a Traditionalist fantasy fueled by memories that never were reality. You must always remember that none of us knew or cared what was going on as long as we were in and out of Mass in 7 minutes or less.

You have got to get down to the Insectarium if you have not already done so… It is well worth it.

“Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up all these things… Suppose we have. Then all I can say in that case, the made up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones”
~Puddleglum

 

[brotherhrolf]

No you didn’t Brother,:tsktsk: Its impossible. You are caught up in a Traditionalist fantasy fueled by memories that never were reality. You must always remember that none of us knew or cared what was going on as long as we were in and out of Mass in 7 minutes or less.

You have got to get down to the Insectarium if you have not already done so… It is well worth it.

 

[ethelzguy]

No you didn’t Brother,:tsktsk: Its impossible. You are caught up in a Traditionalist fantasy fueled by memories that never were reality. You must always remember that none of us knew or cared what was going on as long as we were in and out of Mass in 7 minutes or less.:

At least somebody is being honest about things

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JRKH

If the reforms, as implemented, were to solve participation issues and draw us closer to The Church, why did vocations dry up?

One, the call to the priesthood, was not and is not being heard.

Two, families aren’t as large as they use to be, so there are less men to be called.

Three, the culture we live in is in danger, because we’ve lost our moral values. We’re essentially a pagan culture. Heck my little town years ago, had to stop having fireworks for the Forth Of July celebration, because the police chief, as pay back to the town for voting down an issue he was seeking, refused to issue a permit, claiming the traffic set up a dangerous situation. The town had fire works for 25 years with no problem. About 3 years later, the town started celebrating the summer solstice, a pagan holiday, and now thats the big celebration, the week-end before the 4th of July, were there’s hardly anything. No problem with controlling traffic for that, even thought it attracts every kind of strange character in New England.

Take a look back at the scandal at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. The immoral abuse of the prisoners which we saw on the news, was actually a reflection our immoral society. People said, this doesn’t represent America. Uh, yes it does.

Why are there no religious to teach in our School? Why are there abuses in the Mass? Why are there now a host of new ills in the Church that need to be addressed?

As long as the Church has human beings, there will be ills to address. Our duty is to be better Catholics.

Personally, I think the Church has gone through a purgation, especially during sex abuse scandal and the purgation is almost done. Most of the bad priest have been rooted out and are gone.

Also, as parishes are closed and merged, new communities are coming together and I think we’ll see a better form of worship and fellowship, than we saw in the past.

An interesting story in my dioceses just this last week. A parish was closed and the members of the parish now had to move over to another parish, in their area. They had their first Mass together last week. The members of the parish did a wonderful thing in welcoming the new members of their parish. As the new members of their parish arrived for Mass on Sunday, they were all handed a rose by the members of the existing parish. The tears of joy and love, were amazing. God bless them all!

So yeah, the Church is going through some pain, but the pain will bring new growth and a new life that will be better than what we’ve ever experienced before. The people coming to Mass each Sunday, come because they want to be there, not because they fear committing a mortal sin if they don’t show up.

Jim

 

[JRKH]

(snip)
**So yeah, the Church is going through some pain, but the pain will bring new growth and a new life **that will be better than what we’ve ever experienced before. The people coming to Mass each Sunday, come because they want to be there, not because they fear committing a mortal sin if they don’t show up.

Jim

Jim,
Of everything you said in your response I think this really says it best. There will be a great sense of renewal in the various parishies. Recommitments, Renewals and a new and better understanding of the roles of old and new will, I believe, result in a Wonderful, Beautiful, and Glorious blend of both the more orthodox with the more modern.
The best thing we can all do for each other is to try and not “pidgeon hole” each other. I know you’ve seen it too how a statement can be misconstrued, or someone you’re speaking with can only think in “absolute” terms. They are trying to place you (or me) in some sort of “position” when in actuality we probably all (well most) can see strengths on both sides of the issue.
I know that from the little and unscientific polls I’ve posted there seems to be much less concern about these issues than some would like us to believe.
Many people are fine with the old mass or the new mass, many people would attend either one, that sort of thing. That doesn’t mean that we should run pall-mall back to some Pre-Vat utopia. It just shows that people are much more accepting and flexible than the opposing “camps” want us to believe. This is the strength that will allow the progress you mention into a greater, more consistant, and more reverent future.

God Bless

Peace
James

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, the Mass at St. Mary’s is one of the finest examples of the OF celebrated with solemnity, reverence, dignity and beauty (outside of Rome). This was the perfect balance of what the Holy Father has been saying all along.

For those of you who are quick to dismiss the writings of the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger as meaningless since he wasn’t pope at the time, I say look at what is happening now. If one carefully reads what he said back then and looks at the picture now, it is evident that what he observed in the Spirit of the Liturgy, Feast of Faith and A New Song for the Lord is taking shape under his papacy.

The only thing that was disappointing during the broadcast of the Mass was the commentary from the Aussie broadcast team. First of all, they should keep their comments to a minimum and allow the Mass to speak for itself. Furthermore, there was a lot of misrepresentation regarding “active participation” when one of the commentators, a priest, said that such a thing didn’t exist prior to the Second Vatican Council. Furthermore, there was also some misrepresentation regarding the issue of a free-standing altar. The Council documents never called for that and, furthermore, the commentators should have read what the Holy Father wrote in The Spirit of the Liturgy and in his foreword to Fr. Lang’s book.

 

[AMDGtoo]

The people coming to Mass each Sunday, come because they want to be there, not because they fear committing a mortal sin if they don’t show up.

I hope it’s still known that coming to Mass on Sundays and Holy Days is still an obligation under penalty of mortal sin, because it still is.

I hope it’s not being said that a “laissez faire” attitude is being introduced by the “changes” but the people are just not being told about Mass obligation even though it still exists. Somehow that scenario would seem just a tad dishonest.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I hope it’s still known that coming to Mass on Sundays and Holy Days is still an obligation under penalty of mortal sin, because it still is.

I hope it’s not being said that a “laissez faire” attitude is being introduced by the “changes” but the people are just not being told about Mass obligation even though it still exists. Somehow that scenario would seem just a tad dishonest.

Well my opinion, and it is just my opinion, is that it is a greater sin to come to Mass, because you fear mortal sin, more than you love God.

Jim

 

[palmas85]

Well my opinion, and it is just my opinion, is that it is a greater sin to come to Mass, because you fear mortal sin, more than you love God.

Jim

You are right. It is your opinion and not the opinion of the Church at all.

 

[Joysong]

JimR,

That was a lovely comment, and I think tonight’s LOTH echoed your sentiments in the first psalm. [For some reason, this evening prayer spoke to me in so many ways! ]

I rejoiced when I heard them say:
“Let us go to God’s house.”
And now our feet are standing
within your gates, O Jerusalem.

For Israel’s law it is,
there to praise the Lord’s name.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t speak Latin, don’t want to learn Latin, am not going to learn Latin and am happy with French or English.

Rome is gone, Latin with it. No?

LOL. This sounds so much like my kid brother’s second day in grade school. “But mommy, I don’t want to go to school.”

Third day, he went by himself.

 

[ProVobis]

Of course the Constitution was misinterpreted. But that misinterpretation was approved by Pope Paul VI. The Reform of the Reform is a rejection of Pope Paul VI and the Consilium that made all of the changes which were approved by Pope Paul VI.
Paul VI was Pope until 1978. He never corrected any of the 'misinterpretations"

:

Everything Pope Paul VI did was vulnerable to rejection. Nothing he said or did was infallibly done. At least that’s what the argument against Pope Pius V’s Quo Primum was.

It’s a pity he seemed to have started this pitting of one Pope vs another. Actually one Pope against many Popes.

Pope Benedict at least is trying to minimize this rejection of Paul Paul and he’s doing it quite well actually.

 

[ProVobis]

At least somebody is being honest about things

I can’t believe what I’m reading. I’d like to hear just one person say all the Latin in the EF Latin Mass audibly in seven minutes, or even 20 minutes. Many priests have a problem with pronouncing any Latin at all.

 

[Aramis]

I can’t believe what I’m reading. I’d like to hear just one person say all the Latin in the EF Latin Mass audibly in seven minutes, or even 20 minutes. Many priests have a problem with pronouncing any Latin at all.

Sadly, you can not meet Rev. Fr. John Fearon, O.P., as he passed on a decade ago. His 20minute DLM was audible & intelligible (at least to the servers, and he had no discomfort with a lapel mic…) and included a homily, usually about 5 lines in length, and thought provoking. Then again, he was part of the team for the '56 Catholic Encyclopedia…

Very Rev. Fr. Leo Walsh, STL, has done daily mass (OF, in english) in 20 minutes. It did not feel rushed at all. Only a few people, tho’, under 20.

OF Daily mass is shorter than OF Sunday, due to 1 reading, rather than 2, and a number of the longer communal prayers being very optional for daily mass. (Read the GIRM… it tells clearly which are.)

 

[JRKH]

I can’t believe what I’m reading. I’d like to hear just one person say all the Latin in the EF Latin Mass audibly in seven minutes, or even 20 minutes. Many priests have a problem with pronouncing any Latin at all.

(Read the following with a quirky foghorn leghorn accent)

What we have here is a failure to communicate…

It’s a joke son - I say - I say - It’s a joke.



Peace
James