Pope Benedict and the Reform of the Reform

[KingAlfred]

Pope Benedict is a transitional pope. He shouldn’t try to change much. He already made his major contributions under John Paul II. I hope Benedict understands that about himself, and doesn’t get carried away.

 

[nightwalker]

Pope Benedict is a transitional pope. He shouldn’t try to change much. He already made his major contributions under John Paul II. I hope Benedict understands that about himself, and doesn’t get carried away.

There is no such thing as a “transitional Pope”. Popes who were elected at an older age have accomplished far more than their short reigns would have suggested. Bl John XXIII, for example. Already Pope Benedict has laid the groundwork for a continuation of applying the actual Council documents. That is a major contribution, and the more he moves it along, the bigger it will be.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There is no such thing as a “transitional Pope”. Popes who were elected at an older age have accomplished far more than their short reigns would have suggested. Bl John XXIII, for example. Already Pope Benedict has laid the groundwork for a continuation of applying the actual Council documents. That is a major contribution, and the more he moves it along, the bigger it will be.

Transitional Pope is more of a figure of speech. However, historically its a reality in the Vatican. They elected Pope John XXIII as a transitional Pope, but it backfired on them. He ended up being one of the greatest Popes of the Church.

Jim

 

[ethelzguy]

Transitional Pope is more of a figure of speech. However, historically its a reality in the Vatican. They elected Pope John XXIII as a transitional Pope, but it backfired on them. He ended up being one of the greatest Popes of the Church.

Jim

The joys of “expeectations”…those from whom much is expected sometimes come up short of those expectations, while those who were a “stop-gap” often turn out to be the big surprise.

 

[ProVobis]

Transitional Pope is more of a figure of speech. However, historically its a reality in the Vatican. They elected Pope John XXIII as a transitional Pope, but it backfired on them. He ended up being one of the greatest Popes of the Church.

Jim

Next to Pope Pius V anyway.

But may the Missal of Blessed Pope John XXIII live forever.

 

[benedictgal]

How dare anyone say that Pope Benedict is a transitional pope!

That is an insult to someone who is working diligently to steer the liturgical barque back on course. In a very short time he has done more to move us away from the fog of the “spirit” of Vatican II and get us going in the right direction under an authentic interpretation of what the documents actually said.

He will, more than likely, go down as a greater Pontiff than even Pope John Paul II. Don’t get me wrong. I love the late Holy Father; however, Pope Benedict is taking the whips and cleansing the Temple. It may not be as immediate as some of us would like, but, he is getting the house in order.

 

[KingAlfred]

There is no such thing as a “transitional Pope”. Popes who were elected at an older age have accomplished far more than their short reigns would have suggested. Bl John XXIII, for example. Already Pope Benedict has laid the groundwork for a continuation of applying the actual Council documents. That is a major contribution, and the more he moves it along, the bigger it will be.

Good. I’m glad for it. I just don’t think this is his time. John Paul II was a colossal figure at a major turning point in human history. Everything came together in his papacy – time, events, themes, achievements. This is a time for consolidation, a detail of which you just alluded to. That’s what I meant by ‘transitional’.

 

[KingAlfred]

How dare anyone say that Pope Benedict is a transitional pope!

That is an insult to someone who is working diligently to steer the liturgical barque back on course. In a very short time he has done more to move us away from the fog of the “spirit” of Vatican II and get us going in the right direction under an authentic interpretation of what the documents actually said.

He will, more than likely, go down as a greater Pontiff than even Pope John Paul II. Don’t get me wrong. I love the late Holy Father; however, Pope Benedict is taking the whips and cleansing the Temple. It may not be as immediate as some of us would like, but, he is getting the house in order.

You’re obviously a very determined traditionalist. Personally, I don’t expect to see a pope greater than JP2 during the remainder of my time on Planet Earth.

 

[benedictgal]

You’re obviously a very determined traditionalist. Personally, I don’t expect to see a pope greater than JP2 during the remainder of my time on Planet Earth.

I think great things come in small, petite packages. Pope Benedict will go down as the finest mind to ever occupy the throne of St. Peter. He will be remembered as Benedict the Great. But, he still has a lot of work to do. As it stands, inasmuch as I love JP2, Benedict is the one who will make the difference.

He’s already moving full steam ahead. The Benedict express is chugging along. Look at all of the wonderful things he has done and what he has begun to implement. If you want a GPS tracker to see where we are heading, buy his books on the liturgy. Everything he has written about as a cardinal is now taking shape since he has become Pope.

 

[nightwalker]

Good. I’m glad for it. I just don’t think this is his time. John Paul II was a colossal figure at a major turning point in human history. Everything came together in his papacy – time, events, themes, achievements. This is a time for consolidation, a detail of which you just alluded to. That’s what I meant by ‘transitional’.

Everything came together. JPII will be remembered as great not for Theology of the Body, or any other great theological work, but because ‘things came together’.

Benedict will be remembered as great because what he is doing to implement the Council. Everything around the Church is falling apart, but the Church is still coming together.

 

[Jordan_Francis]

Personally, as a young Catholic (and recently re-converted to the faith), I find this all very exciting.

One of the reasons I was precisely drawn to Catholicism was the sense of mystery that I did not find when I was in Protestant services.

While studying Catholicism and the astounding theology of the Mass I developed a very idealized understanding of the Liturgy (even though I had experienced it when I was much younger). When I started attending Mass again I found myself often disappointed. I felt that the choice of song, the attitudes and postures of fellow parishoners, the way the priest sometimes said the prayers…and even (IMO) the way the Eucharist is distributed and the direction the priest faces…did not always seem to correspond to the event of the Mass as it is described to us in the Catechism and other literature.

It continues to be something of a spiritual obstacle today.

Recently I attended a traditional latin high Mass and found it a very moving Liturgical experience. I plan to continue to attend. The only problem is that I don’t want to feel as though I have a sectarian attitude.

The Novus Ordo has flaws, but because it is the “ordinary” Mass, I feel as though I have an obligation.

I sincerely hope the Holy Father can steer the Liturgy permanently in a more reverent direction that more richly expresses what we believe is happening in the Mass.

Benedictgal

Pope Benedict will go down as the finest mind to ever occupy the throne of St. Peter

I agree he might very well be regarded as such. His book “Jesus of Nazareth” set me on the track to conversion, and I continue to lap up everything of his I can get my hands on.

When I hear him explain the Christian faith, I always find myself thinking…yes, I have really found the truth.

 

[Phemie]

Of course the Constitution was misinterpreted. But that misinterpretation was approved by Pope Paul VI. The Reform of the Reform is a rejection of Pope Paul VI and the Consilium that made all of the changes which were approved by Pope Paul VI.
Paul VI was Pope until 1978. He never corrected any of the 'misinterpretations"
:

This is what the CSL says on the use of the Vernacular:

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

1. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

1. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.

I’ve looked at all the decrees issued by our Conference of Bishops over the years – none such as the above appears. Does that mean that, rather than risk having a decree that the vernacular was to be used all the time rejected by the Holy See, they simply opted not to issue one?

It can’t be said that Pope Paul VI approved, if in fact the conferences didn’t ask. Just because the entire Roman Missal was translated didn’t mean the translation had to be used always & everywhere.

 

[Joysong]

It can’t be said that Pope Paul VI approved, if in fact the conferences didn’t ask. Just because the entire Roman Missal was translated didn’t mean the translation had to be used always & everywhere.

Hi Phemie,

This was a hot issue of debate around the time of the change to vernacular, so luckily I still have the document in my files. Maybe it will be helpful to review again.

Pope Paul VI did give formal approval:

1. It is here that the greatest newness is going to be noticed, the newness of language. No longer Latin, but the spoken language will be the principal language of the Mass.

1. Understanding of prayer is worth more than the silken garments in which it is royally dressed. Participation by the people is worth more—particularly participation by modern people, so fond of plain language which is easily understood and converted into everyday speech.

1. If the divine Latin language kept us apart from the children, from youth, from the world of labor and of affairs, if it were a dark screen, not a clear window, would it be right for us fishers of souls to maintain it as the exclusive language of prayer and religious intercourse? What did St. Paul have to say about that? Read chapter 14 of the first letter to the Corinthians: “In Church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue” (I Corinthians 14:19).

1. But, let us bear this well in mind, for our counsel and our comfort: the Latin language will not thereby disappear. It will continue to be the noble language of the Holy See’s official acts; it will remain as the means of teaching in ecclesiastical studies and as the key to the patrimony of our religious, historical and human culture. If possible, it will reflourish in splendor.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/p6691126.htm

 

[JRKH]

Personally, as a young Catholic (and recently re-converted to the faith), I find this all very exciting.

One of the reasons I was precisely drawn to Catholicism was the sense of mystery that I did not find when I was in Protestant services.

While studying Catholicism and the astounding theology of the Mass I developed a very idealized understanding of the Liturgy (even though I had experienced it when I was much younger). When I started attending Mass again I found myself often disappointed. I felt that the choice of song, the attitudes and postures of fellow parishoners, the way the priest sometimes said the prayers…and even (IMO) the way the Eucharist is distributed and the direction the priest faces…did not always seem to correspond to the event of the Mass as it is described to us in the Catechism and other literature.

It continues to be something of a spiritual obstacle today.

Recently I attended a traditional latin high Mass and found it a very moving Liturgical experience. I plan to continue to attend. The only problem is that I don’t want to feel as though I have a sectarian attitude.

The Novus Ordo has flaws, but because it is the “ordinary” Mass, I feel as though I have an obligation.

I sincerely hope the Holy Father can steer the Liturgy permanently in a more reverent direction that more richly expresses what we believe is happening in the Mass.
(Snip)

Please do not feel torn, or sectarian just because you are drawn to the EF as opposed to the OF. The Holy Father has made it perfectly clear that both forms are acceptable. Personally I Prefer the EF on Sundays while the OF is fine during the week.
I find that, during the week, when the OF is said without the music, it feels very close, prayerful and communal. With music and such, it loses that feeling for me. Also, I am somewhat distracted by the casual dress of people at Sunday mass. This is less of an issue during the week since people are working, or otherwise engaged. (sort of a workingman’s mass idea)
The Sunday EF, on the other hand, with the Latin Chants and Sung Prayers carries me along with it in reverent and contemplative worship. I find myself immersed in the experience of listening to the Priest and Choir while praying along in my missal and offering my entire self to Our Lord. Every sense of my being is taken up with praise, prayer, worship and the Glorification of God, leading up to the moment when I can receive Him in the Eucharist.

Unfortunately, due to my wife’s illness we cannot make the trip downtown to the EF mass anymore. I miss it terribly, but attend the Sunday OF at our local parish which is just a couple of blocks away.

Anyway, I hope this helps you to realize that you need not feel “Sectarian” or like your being loyal to one or the other mass just because you have a preference. In fact, it is my fervent hope that someday everyone will come to accept both forms of the mass for the beautiful qualities of each. Such acceptance will allow the more general use of both forms throughout the Church.

Peace
James

 

[Phemie]

But you’ve skipped no. 13 in “CHANGES IN MASS FOR GREATER APOSTOLATE – Pope Paul VI” which clearly says:

1. St. Augustine seems to be commenting on this when he says, “Have no fear of teachers, so long as all are instructed” (P.L. 38, 228, Serm. 37; cf. also Serm. 229, p. 1371). But, in any case, the new rite of the Mass provides that the faithful “should be able to sing together, in Latin, at least the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, the Our Father” (Sacrosanctum Concilium n. 19).

That has not happened, at least not in any of the many parishes where I’ve worshipped since Vat. II.

 

[ethelzguy]

How dare anyone say that Pope Benedict is a transitional pope!

It is an opinion. Much like “opinions” that decry certain types of music, instruments, or dance at Church functions.

We are all entitled to our opinions, yes?

 

[KingAlfred]

Everything came together. JPII will be remembered as great not for Theology of the Body, or any other great theological work, but because ‘things came together’.

Benedict will be remembered as great because what he is doing to implement the Council. Everything around the Church is falling apart, but the Church is still coming together.

I strongly disagree. I read everything JP2 published, and I believe he was one of the greatest theologians of all human time. There has never been a pope with deeper insight and better communicative ability. Benedict’s greatness was established when he served as JP2’s chief advisor.

Truthfully, I’m baffled and intrigued by your insistence that Benedict, who has only been pope now for what – five years? – is already, in your opinion, one of the greatest of all popes. Huh?
JP2 was pope for 25 years, helped roll up Communism in Poland, oversaw the publication of the second only Catechism in Church history, and wrote some of the best modern theology available. Yet, according to you, Benedict, in the space of five years, has already outstripped him in terms of achievement?

 

[japhy]

Truthfully, I’m baffled and intrigued by your insistence that Benedict, who has only been pope now for [three] years, is already, in your opinion, one of the greatest of all popes. Huh? … Yet, according to you, Benedict, in the space of [three] years, has already outstripped him in terms of achievement?

I didn’t see that in nightwalker’s posts (although maybe I missed it). He said: “Pope Benedict has laid the groundwork for a continuation of applying the actual Council documents. That is a major contribution, and the more he moves it along, the bigger it will be. … Benedict will be remembered as great because what he is doing to implement the Council.”

I do not see anything close to the an opinion that Benedict is “one of the greatest of all popes”.

 

[AMDGtoo]

That has not happened, at least not in any of the many parishes where I’ve worshipped since Vat. II.

I know. In one parish, when I have even requested one particular song (Salve Regina) that is in Latin (gasp), I get to hear “We don’t do Latin.” Well we do other languages, even if the songs must be taught to the congregation by phoenetic spellings.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Pope John Paul II is the greatest pope of my life time. Even then Cardinal Raztinger was awed by him, as Pope.

JPII brought the world together. He brought Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist and so many others, together to learn about each other and to develop a respect for each other. He will not be matched in my life time, I’m sure of it.

I have been reading Pope Benedict’s(Cardinal Ratzinger) books, on the recommendation of my retreat master, Fr. Mathew OCSB, last spring. I was surprised to hear Fr. Mathew, praise Pope Benedict, being Fr. Mathew leans towards the left on issues. So, I picked up a couple books and I was amazed to see how liberal Pope Benedict XVI, actually is. His quotes on the Tao and Dhrama, and Buddhist thought, are right on. His criticism of political conservatism, gave me new insight on the term.

It is without question that Pope Benedict XXVI, made some political gaffs on a couple of issues, and one even contributed to violence and the death of Catholics living in hostile areas in the Middle East.

However, its still too soon, to know whether Pope Benedict’s accomplishments will go down in history as great, marginal or destructive.

Jim