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Sword_Brethren
Guest
That altar has not been used in decades?
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mangy_dog
Guest
This is wonderful!! Little by little Pope Bendict XVI is being the catalyst for positive, holy change.
Long live Pope Benedict XVI.
My prayers are with you Santo Papa.
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mangy_dog
Guest
De Gloria Olivae
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Conservative
Guest
A-MAZING ! “in a stark break with tradition”? STARK BREAK? One has to be blown away by those words = Do any of these announcers, speakers, representatives - anyone - know the history of the Church - and how many centuries there were of the Mass offered one way - before Vatican II? UGH ! :banghead: Thanks for this link, though.The Vatican Radio announcer is too funny…" in a stark *break *with tradition Pope Benedict has decided to celebrate the Mass on the altar…"
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
HARD to imagine, but it is true. There was a “free standing” altar (another altar added in the center of the sanctuary for the Pope to stand behind facing the people) that has been used for about 40 years.
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Aramis
Guest
Not really news. Ad orientam has been allowed in the OF since inception. It just isn’t the default posture. Pope Benedict has used it fairly often.
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natsclem
Guest
well perhaps the announcer was born post-vatican 2, just as i am.myself,i dont get it yet–the ad orientem thing.what is in it that makes it something, "oh great,wow!?"can something out here explain it?as a novus ordo man,all that matters to me is that as a worshiper in the Mass,one ought to have the full attention and participation–mind and heart and soul directed to the Glory of the Triune God and Christ in the Scriptures and the Eucharist–during the celebration.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
I’ll simplify it:
- Vatican never called for the change in the position of the alter and therefore it’s not with the line of V-II reforms
- It is the most ancient practice that has been used in Christianity for as long as we know. Christians always turned to the east and this even led some pagans concluded that we worship the Sun.
- East, which where the sun rises, represents, among other things, the second coming of Christ, which we all expect. Thus we turn to the East and direct our prayers there.
- The tabernacle should be behind the altar. There is God in the tabernacle and so the priest should pray in that direction and not “turn his back” on God.
- A captain that leads soldiers into a battle faces the same direction as the soldiers. Why should priest turn around if he leads us in prayer?
- The Holy Mass is about us and God and not about priest and us…and God. Why should priest face us as if he is some kind of performer or entertainer? The Mass isn’t about him.
- A priest that *** the Mass towards the people is often tempted to “show off” himself, to entertain the people etc. It is however during mass that his presence should become unnoticeable. He should become small so that God is see in all his glory.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
Where have you last seen the pope celebrate the mass Ad Orientem when he had a perfect chance to do it the old “new” way?
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pnewton
Guest
In Spirit of the LIturgy, which he wrote when he was Cardinal, the Pope included a section on the history of facing east and how the orientation was swapped. It gave me a new appreciation for this practice. I’m not much of a traditionalist in many respects, but this is one change I would like to see changed…er…back, that is.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
I am struck by this answer from a priest on AOL (although not from exactly the same question):
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Markstorm
Guest
Hmm, interesting point. It’s hard to decide whether to put more trust in the Holy Father or an AOL priest. Times like this, you really wish Catholics had some authority to turn to…
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natsclem
Guest
I subscribe to that idea. The Mass is for mankind. The Word of God became man for mankind. The same Word of God made Himself available in the Eucharist for mankind. We do the Mass in remembrance of Him who suffered and died on the cross for mankind. There is nowhere in which the greatness of God’s love is deeply and profoundly expressed than the celebration of the Liturgy of the Word and the Eucharist. Imagine the Word of God, King of kings, Lord of lords, the Alpha and Omega with all His glory and holiness makes Himself so vulnerable so as to make Himself really present in the form of bread and wine so that we can eat His flesh and drink His blood and that in doing so we can have life everlasting? That is all for mankind sake. How can we not then celebrate the Love of God? The victory of the Cross? With all the attendees as one community with the same Faith, Hope, and Love? I do believe that is the real purpose of the Novus Ordo bringing us the basics, the essentials. so that divested of things accidentals, we as a community can focus on the essentials, so that as a community we can worship God in spirit and truth.
I dont believe that the structure itself can bring us the fruits of the Mass but rather it is the Faith that is alive in us, without which attending Mass will just be like attending a get-together party or a meeting with snacks.
Here in the Philipines, the old ones, who were able to attend TLM are attached to superstition, fortune telling, credulous to some who claim to have been possessed by Mother Mary, Sto Niño, or dwende (dwarf spirits). Latin is used by quasi-Catholic animistic sects as magical language; they use it for their witchcraft. That’s why TLM versus Novus Ordo or the Tradition versus Modernism conflict in the West is not relevant or felt here. We do not even know who is traditional bishop or modernist bishop here. Preferential option for the poor and living the “Church of Poor” is what concerns the clergy here. They battle for Life. They call for moral governance and stoppage of graft and corruption. They are the voice of the oppressed and the landless. One priest managed to win a gubernatorial position and is effective showing a powerful governance in the light of Faith.
What we need here is new evangelization, re-evangelization with vigor. so that we can be freed from attachment to paganistic beliefs, from selfishness and greed.
The Novus Ordo here is attended well; during Sundays churches are exceedingly full. the clergy is never remiss in terms of ensuring the strict application of the Novus Ordo directives. No clowns as in the US. In my observation, although “ad populum” the priests here are focused on their function as representative of the people and there is cross on the altar/table. by the way,we still call it altar not table. and we adorn it with flowers at the foot.with candles at the altar.we use incense on some occassions.
If “ad orientem” is to be re-introduced, the faithful need to be catechized to understand its meaning and value.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
I do hope you are not inferring something is infallible because the author is now pope or inferring that my source is going against church teaching in any way, shape or form.
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Conservative
Guest
Thanks for those beautiful links / pics.
Agreeing with your items 1-7. One of the saddest things is expensive marble altars (who knows the cost) ripped out, for wooden tables. Sometimes, you even have to look for a Crucifix once table has been installed. But then the parishes request contributions for necessary upkeep, utility costs, heat, etc. It’s a terrible excess expense to remove built-in, one-of-a-kind artwork altars, when money is already tight. At least some Churches just moved portions of altars forward so the priest could face people - but still the expense. (Guess I’m very practical.) I’ve walked into two churches I hadn’t visited in a while - and found unused, original altars - removed completely - with just the Tabernacle on a stand.
Now, not the place of honor for the Tabernacle is gone. Further, let’s not forget The “Reformation” - Cranmer’s Table? I believe (correct me, if I’m wrong) it was Cranmer who introduced “the table” during Protestant Reformation?Adding to Item 7 - I heartily agree that in offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we are praying to God. With the priest facing us, even though he raises the Host and Chalice upward, he’s facing us. Better to be facing the Tabernacle, in my mind, where the priest is less likely to be distracted than when facing congregation.
I can understand the poster who has only known post-Vatican II Mass arrangement. But you have to consider based on the above - at what cost - financially or spiritually.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
The Priest is turning towards people when he addresses them. He turns towards God when he addresses God. He is facing the people when he is giving the homily.
No, but people don’t receive communion from a priest facing in the other direction.
So the mass is not about God but about us? I’m shocked!
Where do the passages you just quoted suggest that it’s about us? Does is say: “Do it in remembrance of yourself?” or does it say “Do it in remembrance of me?” So we are to do it in remembrance of Jesus and mass is indeed all about Him and not us.
I think that’s just from the priest’s view point. From the view of the Church for 2000 years the mass is the highest form of worship of God.
Is the Holy Mass a sacrifice? Yes or No?
To whom is the sacrifice directed? Us or God?
What does turning towards God in prayer has to do with loving man? This passage is completely irrelevant.
We are a community - community that worships the One God lead by a priest.
Mass is all about the Eucharistic Sacrifice that is necessary for our salvation.
By your logic it seems that now that Jesus has come to save us we can just go on with our business because we are all saved. We no longer need him. We don’t need to worship him, pray to him and accept his graces.
I thought that most of what is said during the mass is actually addressed to God…so it’s for God.
Now, it’s also true that its for the people because God gave us the ability to pray to him and instructions on how to do it. But ultimately prayer is directed at God.
Unless you’re practicing idolatry of course…
Right, and anyone who does not seem to understand that when we pray we pray to God is a bad Christian at the very least.
True but he deserves it! He deserves our complete undivided attention. Everything we do that is not directed towards God is a waste of time. Now, I’m the biggest time waster I know, but it’s true nonetheless!
Are these truly the only two reasons why we should go to mass? We can receive the Eucharist and listen to the Gospel outside of Mass, can’t we?
In conclusion I have to say that I not only find this article deeply disturbing but I also don’t see how it shows that a priest shouldn’t offer the Holy Mass Ad Orientem.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
Thanks you. I agree with you completely. The whole thing is most obvious in old and beautiful Churches. I once went to a very beautuful gothic cathedral. It had a great high alter with a lovely gothic altarpiece. In front of it they put this simple "post-modern art"marble altar. It just made me sad.Thanks for those beautiful links / pics.
Agreeing with your items 1-7. One of the saddest things is expensive marble altars (who knows the cost) ripped out, for wooden tables. Sometimes, you even have to look for a Crucifix once table has been installed. But then the parishes request contributions for necessary upkeep, utility costs, heat, etc. It’s a terrible excess expense to remove built-in, one-of-a-kind artwork altars, when money is already tight. At least some Churches just moved portions of altars forward so the priest could face people - but still the expense. (Guess I’m very practical.) I’ve walked into two churches I hadn’t visited in a while - and found unused, original altars - removed completely - with just the Tabernacle on a stand.
Adding to Item 7 - I heartily agree that in offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we are praying to God. With the priest facing us, even though he raises the Host and Chalice upward, he’s facing us. Better to be facing the Tabernacle, in my mind, where the priest is less likely to be distracted than when facing congregation.
I can understand the poster who has only known post-Vatican II Mass arrangement. But you have to consider based on the above - at what cost - financially or spiritually.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
Is this his own teaching on the Mass or is it the Church’s teaching? His own teaching doesn’t have any value.
From the Baltimore Catechism-Part 3 Lesson Twenty-Fourth: On the Sacrifce of the Mass, Q. 917. What is the Mass?
A. The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ.
Q. 918. Why is this Sacrifice called the Mass?
A. This Sacrifice is called the “Mass” very probably from the words “Ite Missa est,” used by the priest as he tells the people to depart when the Holy Sacrifice is ended.
Q. 919. What is a sacrifice?
A. A sacrifice is the offering of an object by a priest to God alone, and the consuming of it to acknowledge that He is the Creator and Lord of all things.
Q. 920. Is the Mass the same sacrifice as that of the Cross?
A. The Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the Cross.
Q. 921. How is the Mass the same sacrifice as that of the Cross?
A. The Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the Cross because the offering and the priest are the same – Christ our Blessed Lord; and the ends for which the sacrifice of the Mass is offered are the same as those of the sacrifice of the Cross.
Q. 922. What were the ends for which the sacrifice of the Cross was offered?
A. The ends for which the sacrifice of the Cross was offered were:
1st. To honor and glorify God;
2nd. To thank Him for all the graces bestowed on the whole world;
3rd. To satisfy God’s justice for the sins of men;
4th. To obtain all graces and blessings.
Q. 923. How are the fruits of the Mass distributed?
A. The fruits of the Mass are distributed thus:
The first benefit is bestowed on the priest who says the Mass;
The second on the person for whom the Mass is said, or for the intention for which it is said;
The third on those who are present at the Mass, and particularly on those who serve it, and
The fourth on all the faithful who are in communion with the Church.
The AOL Priest stated “God has no need of our worship” That does not sound right.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
Thanks for that!
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Aramis
Guest
God indeed has no need of our worship. But he does desire it, and WE NEED to do it, for our own good, to repair the damage our sins do to our relationship with God.
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