Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[guanophore]

Did you know that Paul is using the word justification as a forensic (legal) definition which is different usage than how James is using the word justification. What Paul and James teach are compatible and are not in contradiction. Remember, the Apostle Paul wrote half of the New Testament with a clear teaching of the doctrine of justification which is the heart of the Christian gospel. James is adressing a kind of faith which is demonic and does not save a sinner, which is a dead faith and comes from the flesh and not from God.

This is an important article to understand our differences of the doctrine of justitfication:

gracesermons.com/robbeeee/imputed.html

We can reduce its meaning to the concept of legal declaration.

This last sentence is the basis of the error. The Apostles never reduced it this way.
"Sproul:

 Our sin may be forgiven, but forgiveness does not undo the sin. The consequences of the sin may be removed or ameliorated, but the sin itself is not undone.

This statement is also at the basis of the doctrine of Purgatory.
Sproul:

The Bible speaks figuratively about the sin being washed, cleansed, healed, and blotted out. The sin, which is scarlet, may become white as snow, the crimson may become like wool, in God's sight. The sin may be cast into the sea of forgetfulness or purged with hyssop.

Actually, it is a modern innovation that these references are "figurative’. The Apostles taught that they are literal.
Sproul:

If we define forensic justification as a legal declaration by which God declares a person just and we leave it at that, we would have no dispute between Rome and Evangelicalism. Though Rome has an antipathy to the concept of forensic justification, this antipathy is directed against the Protestant view of it.

This is a false statement.On the contrary, this limitation is the basis of the dispute. It is not limited to a declaration, according to the Apostolic Teaching.
Sproul:

Here Rome is jealous to distinguish between being reputed just and actually being just, yet it is still true that God calls the baptismally regenerated just. That is, for Rome justification is forensic in that justification involves God’s legal declaration. A person is justified when God declares that person just. The reason or the ground of that declaration differs radically between Roman Catholic and Reformed theology. But both agree that a legal declaration by God is made.

This is another false statement. As evidenced by the topic of the thread,there is not disntinction in Catholic theology as to how we are justified. Sproul did not understand Catholic Teaching.
Sproul:

Nor is it sufficient merely to say that Rome teaches that justification means "to make just," while Protestants teach that justification means "to declare just." For Rome God both makes just and declares just. For Protestants God both makes just and declares just -- but not in the same way. For Rome the declaration of justice follows the making inwardly just of the regenerate sinner. For the Reformation the declaration of justice follows the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the regenerated sinner.

This is simply a strawman arguement, since Catholic teaching is that we are declared just as a result of the imputation of Chris’t righteousness to the sinner. The only difference is that the Reformed teaching is that a person is born again before being justified, and the Apostles taught that these events occur at the same time. He is correct that there is a difference between the Catholic and Reformed concepts of how justification happens, he just seems confused about what it is, since he does not understand Catholic Teaching.

R. C. Sproul is an author, chairman of Ligonier Ministries, and professor at the Orlando campus of Reformed Theological Seminary

A good example of the misunderstandings that exist, and why they do.

 

[guanophore]

Again, please share the difference of Pope Benedict’s idea of faith alone and the faith alone proclaimed by the Protestant Reformers.

Calvin taught that saving faith was present in a person because their soul had already been regenertated. They are born again by grace first, then they experience faith, and because of that they can be justified. God does not justify a person he has not already regenerated by grace.

This is a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, we must have faith that we are receiving the grace of God through all the sacraments. However you are using language that emanates from modern innovations in theology that departs from the Teachings of the Apostles.

The “alone” notions imply that there is no human participation, or human will (work) involved, and this is not what was handed down to us from the Apostles. they taught that the grace of God must be mixed with faith in those who are called. Each one much choose if one wishes to receive and respond to the grace, or the grace will not save him.

Please answer my question which is Pope Benedict’s question. You are totally ignoring the central issue of justification according to Paul.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation:** the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes?..**." Pope Benedict

 

[guanophore]

We are all commanded to repent and have faith in the gospel. However, I see repentance that leads to eternal life, and saving faith as being gifts from God, granted to the Elect of God.

This is one of the areas where the Reformed theology departs from Apostolic Teaching. The Apostles taught that Christ died for ALL, not just the elect, and that God gives enough grace to everyone that they may be saved, not just to the 'elect". The Apostles taught that the “elect” are those who respond to God’s grace, and choose Him, at which time the faith that is in them, mixes with the grace that is available to justify them, resulting in salvation. The Apostles taught that each person must choose to be saved, that those who reject the grace that draws them to the foot of the cross are not saved because they choose not to be, not because they were not destined to be among the elect.

Do you see your repentance and your faith to be generated from yourself apart from God?

no

We all agree that good works is evidence of saving faith. However, do you see good works as being done by self, or do you see good works are being done by God through and in us.

the latter

I do see sanctification to be a synergistic act between the redeemed and God.

Wow!

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is one of the areas where the Reformed theology departs from Apostolic Teaching. Wow!

Please answer the Pope’s question and my question. You are ignoring the thread topic.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes?…" Pope Benedict

 

[guanophore]

The difficulty with Catholic theology (IMO) has to do with baptismal regeneration… and no change of religious affection for some who have been baptized.

Indeed, the Apostles taught that this is indeed a possibility. the Baptized (regenereated) can, and do, fall from grace,and return to a life of sin. It is a modern innovation that teaches they cannot.

The idea that a person who falls from the faith was “never really saved” did not emerge until the reformation, and is only a few hundred years old.

We can sprinkle, dip, and dunk sinners in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... but without the work of the Spirit in regeneration...then the baptism is of no effect of changes the life of a sinner and his affection of the world.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

However, this does not mean that baptism is not regenerative.

You must be born again according to Jesus (john 3), and water baptism does not guarantee a new birth. I've heard the tesitiomies of Catholics who have had a conversion experience later in life... way after their baptism.

And Catholics would say this happened BECAUSE of the grace of their baptism.

A conversion experience is not equivalent with spiritual rebirth. Although it is great when it occurs, it does not always occur immediately, dramatically, or in a “road to Damascus” fashion.

The Apostles taught that we are born again through water and Spirit in Baptism. However, I do agree with you that not all who are thus born again grow in faith. In Jesus’ parable of the seeds, 75% of the seeds sprouted and grew. Two out of three of those were then lost.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Indeed, the Apostles taught that this is indeed a possibility. the Baptized (regenereated) can, and do, fall from grace,and return to a life of sin. It is a modern innovation that teaches they cannot.

The idea that a person who falls from the faith was “never really saved” did not emerge until the reformation, and is only a few hundred years old.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

However, this does not mean that baptism is not regenerative.

And Catholics would say this happened BECAUSE of the grace of their baptism.

A conversion experience is not equivalent with spiritual rebirth. Although it is great when it occurs, it does not always occur immediately, dramatically, or in a “road to Damascus” fashion.

The Apostles taught that we are born again through water and Spirit in Baptism. However, I do agree with you that not all who are thus born again grow in faith. In Jesus’ parable of the seeds, 75% of the seeds sprouted and grew. Two out of three of those were then lost.

It appears you are intentionally ignoring the doctrine of justification which caused the Protestant Reformation. Here is my question to you, which is the question the Pope is asking too. It seems the Pope is acknowleding the truth of justification by faith alone as so is the professor.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes?.Pope Benedict…"

 

[guanophore]

I am not attacking the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church does change, even though it does not like to admit it. For example, the Council of Trent applied to all Protestants in the 16th Century. To get away from condemning all Protestants in the 20th century, new tradition is added such as “at no fault of their own, modern day Protestants do not fall under the curse of the Council of Trent”.

No 2nd Adam, you are mistaken. It is the doctrine (Apostolic Teaching) that cannot be changed. this is the immutable infallible teaching of Jesus committed “once for all” to the Church.

How the Church understands this once for all immutable (unchanging) doctrine may change.

You are correct, though, that the Council of Trent was directed toward Protestants of the 16th cent. Prior to that time, such a massive and pervasive departure from Apostolic Teaching had not been witnessed.

The reason that many of those principles cannot be applied to 20th cent. Protestants is that in order to qualify as a heretic or an apostate one must have, at one time, embraced the Apostolic faith, then willfully chosen to depart from it. The vast majority of modern Protestants never have been exposed to the Apostolic faith. They believe that the modern innovations of theology that have been derived by men from scripture demonstrate Apostolic faith, which is not the case.

  The Catholic Church blends initial justification (conversion or baptism) with the process of sanctification. ]quote]

This is a false statement.
2nd Adam;5760162:

 The best way to understand each other is to understand what each Christian community believes.

Now would be a good time for you to start!

The above misunderstanding is an excellent starting point.

 The Catholic Churches changes through adding more and more sacred tradition which changes older sacred tradition since the old sacred tradition has to be understood through the new sacred tradition.

This is also a false statement.

Sacred Tradition is the Teaching of the Apostles. It cannot be changed. Nothing can be added or subtacted.

I listened to Catholic Answers radio program today... and heard the questons of the Catholics calling in.. trying to understand old sacred tradition in light of new sacred tradition.  Tim Staples was answering the questions.

You misunderstood.

What has changed is our understanding of what the Apostles taught (Sacred tradition) not the tradition itself.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No 2nd Adam, you are mistaken. It is the doctrine (Apostolic Teaching) that cannot be changed. this is the immutable infallible teaching of Jesus committed “once for all” to the Church.

How the Church understands this once for all immutable (unchanging) doctrine may change.

You are correct, though, that the Council of Trent was directed toward Protestants of the 16th cent. Prior to that time, such a massive and pervasive departure from Apostolic Teaching had not been witnessed.

The reason that many of those principles cannot be applied to 20th cent. Protestants is that in order to qualify as a heretic or an apostate one must have, at one time, embraced the Apostolic faith, then willfully chosen to depart from it. The vast majority of modern Protestants never have been exposed to the Apostolic faith. They believe that the modern innovations of theology that have been derived by men from scripture demonstrate Apostolic faith, which is not the case.
2nd Adam;5760162:

  The Catholic Church blends initial justification (conversion or baptism) with the process of sanctification. ]quote]

This is a false statement.

Now would be a good time for you to start!

The above misunderstanding is an excellent starting point.

This is also a false statement.

Sacred Tradition is the Teaching of the Apostles. It cannot be changed. Nothing can be added or subtacted.

You misunderstood.

What has changed is our understanding of what the Apostles taught (Sacred tradition) not the tradition itself.

The Catholic Church can be right on a lot of things. However, it cannot be wrong on the doctrine of justification by faith according to Paul because it is the gospel.

 

[hawkeye]

I have a suggestion for 2nd Adam. Since you say that ‘if’ in our Pope’s statement does not make any difference to what he means, change your signature from its present ‘cut and paste’ form to the whole sentence as highlighted below.

For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14). (Taken from: BENEDICT XVI, ***GENERAL AUDIENCE, ****St. Peter’s Square, *Wednesday, 19 November 2008)

Glad you got there before me !

 

[guanophore]

Of course but it’s faith that saves you and not your good deeds. If a man is on his deathbed, he doesn’t have time to do anything but believe the message of the gospel. That man would be saved by faith alone.

The act of a person placing their faith in Christ IS a work. It is is the ultimate good work. It is the work God most desires of us. The Reformed tradition thinks we are regenerated before we can place our faith. This constitutes a heresy. The Apostles taught that we each choose.

 

[ron77nyc]

The act of a person placing their faith in Christ IS a work. It is is the ultimate good work. It is the work God most desires of us. The Reformed tradition thinks we are regenerated before we can place our faith. This constitutes a heresy. The Apostles taught that we each choose.

Don’t Catholics do the same thing with baptism? Many baptized Catholics and their parents have no faith at all.

 

[guanophore]

Do you understand the many can profess faith in Christ and remain dead in their sins and treaspasses? Those who profess faith apart from the Spirit of God actually possess a James chapter 2 dead faith which the demons also have.

Yes

 If saving faith is a gift of God, then saving faith comes from God alone.

This is another false statement. It is another fundamental error of the Reformation. Everything God gives us is a gift. However, the entire parable of the talents has to do with what we do with what He provides. He gives us arms, legs, mouth, faith, etc. What we do with those is our decision. When He asked people “where is your faith?” it was always when they chose to place their faith in something other than Himself. People place their faith in themselves, money, power, all kinds of places.

When we choose to place our faith in Him, it mixes with His grace, and we are saved.

There are two kinds of faith, a dead faith generated by the flesh of man and a living faith which is received from God as a glorious gift which transforms a sinner into the image of Christ... to the praise of His glorious transforming and saving grace.

This is false also. There is only one kind of faith. How we use that faith distinguishes it.

I would really like to know how “flesh of man” can generate faith??

This is a preposterous supposition created to cover the errors inherint in “faith alone” theology.

 

[Jason_1977]

Salvation is a process. However, the issue at hand is the doctrine of justification according to the Epistles of Paul. When was Abraham declared righteous according to Paul? Remember, James and Paul are completely compatible. We are not discussing James truth of justification which is used completely different than what Paul is teaching on justification (forensic). The basic question in the Pope’s work on justification is how to you the sinner become right before a perfectly Holy God?

BENEDICT XVI

GENERAL AUDIENCE

St. Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 19 November 2008

Saint Paul (13):

The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes?

I love how James Ch 4 goes out the window…

 

[Jason_1977]

I love how James Ch 4 goes out the window…

Something I learned this week on my retreat at the monastery is that when asking questions like that, you have to bring it down to the living. Try not to see it through heavens eyes. How can we see through their eyes in the first place. What would that mean in daily living? Justification through faith alone, I mean, honestly, if not (I’m repeating myself again) for any other purpose, or if for seemingly no other reason presents itself…faith is a perfectly justifiable & unquestionable reason for DOING anything that is for the betterment or benefit for his/her fellow mankind. Ya gotta read between the lines…I’d start in James Ch. 4 & get over the Paul thing. Paul was great, but people are doing the I SEE JESUS (eisegesis) thing & seeing what they want to see & grabbing meaning from something & missing the point. I mean, the other arguement is the whole rapture being from Luke…I mean, how old is Christianity? about 2000 yrs, give or take we can all agree, right? the rapture??? OOh…the 19th century…yeah. see my point? Fundamentalism has skewed & tainted quite a bit & has created quite the I SEE JESUS frenzy. If you feel compelled to do something and someone doesnt understand why youre doing so, you can say faith pal, faith…who can question that? I have a feeling I’ll be explaining this again & again.

 

[Canto]

Salvation is a process. When was Abraham declared righteous according to Paul? Remember, James and Paul are completely compatible.

Justification is a process

Abraham was justified before God
Abraham had faith which one must have in order to do good works for God
He did do good works for God and his faith was perfected

If someone tries to work without faith in God, then he is in the system of debt. Such works, by themselves, will always put someone in the system of debt, and in that system, the law will always condemn him, since the law demands perfection, not repentance. Abrahams works were for God under grace, not works of debt/the law. Good works are not forced on us, we choose wether to do them or not.

The faith and works of Abraham justified him.

We are not discussing James truth of justification which is used completely different than what Paul is teaching on justification (forensic).

Paul and James are at one in their teaching on justification. The article below which I posted earlier (and tooks some bits of here) shows their oneness very vividly.

David, as another example, had faith, wrote all those lovely psalms, a man after God’s own heart
He lost his justiifaction via adultery - though he still had faith
And needed to be restored to godliness
He repented

catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/justification/engwer-answers.htm

The basic question in the Pope’s work on justification is how to you the sinner become right before a perfectly Holy God?

The Pope did not seek to give a detailed full definitive analysis on justification in the writings of St Paul.

The reformers from what I’ve read were not at one on justification and even Martin Luther changed his views at times - not that there would have been any need had he have held onto the tradtion handed down.

 

[guanophore]

What’s with you guys and the word ‘alone’?
As If the bible teaches the virtue of ‘alone’ just one bit.

The Reformers were reacting to the abuses of indulgences. The Roman clergy were extorting the laity and giving the impression that a person could buy their way to heaven, either by doing good deeds (participating in a crusade) or by working hard and donating money to the Church.

The five solas were the “antidote” to these abuses.

 

[guanophore]

The man or woman who repents immediately before death is like the men in the parable of the workers in the field. He shows up to get paid without doing any work. He gets the same reward as the men who worked all day or part of the day because the master is generous, not because they earned it. That’s all I’m trying to say. I’m not making a theological analysis.

I am glad you clarified this, because even those that came late worked for an hour, and your previous post said “did no work”. I agree, they did not earn it. We cannot earn our salvation. It is a free gift. But, no matter when someone show up to claim the gift,it is the same gift. It does require that we show up and claim it, though.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

This is a reference to baptism, a reflection of the Apostles’ teaching that is regenerative, contrary to the teaching of the Reformers.

 

[2nd_Adam]

BENEDICT XVI

GENERAL AUDIENCE

St. Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 19 November 2008
Saint Paul (13):

The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes? - Pope Benedict

I find it very insightful that Catholics cannot answer the most important question for every human being. How does man become just in God’s eyes? It seems Catholics have lost sight of the central foundation of Christianity. I find that to be so sad.

Justification by Faith

PETER KREEFT

" The Protestant Reformation began when a Catholic monk rediscovered a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book…

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building. Perhaps God allows the Protestant/Catholic division to persist not only because Protestants have abandoned many precious truths taught by the Church but also because many Catholics have never been taught the most precious truth of all, that salvation is a free gift of grace, accepted by faith. I …"

Kreeft, Peter. “Justification by Faith.” Chapter 44 in Fundamentals of the Faith. (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988), 277-281.

Reprinted by permission of Ignatius Press. All rights reserved. Fundamentals of the Faith - ISBN 0-89870-202-X.

 

[guanophore]

Early Church Fathers on being justifiied by faith

Good for you Adam! Glad you are reading the ECF;s

Hope you will not stop by looking for just what you hope to find, but read ALL of what they wrote. This will help a lot to shed light on what the Apostles actually believed and taught.