Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[2nd_Adam]

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.** A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.**

Context my friend! The entire Bible is the proper context of biblical doctrine. Just admit it, Protestants have better biblical theology than Catholics since the Bible is not sufficent revelation for the Catholic. If you want to prove that the Catholic Faith is the One True Faith, you will need to appeal to extra-biblical revelation. Your only hope is apostolic succession. However, if you debate biblical doctrine within Scirpture alone, you will always lose the debate and will be on the short end of a biblical debate. But, I admire your passion… iron sharpening iron, right? The Catholic Faith is not based on biblical revelation as being sufficient and complete.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Except for a minor point; they don’t believe it. I suppose you know what their true definition of justification is; which is not apart from santification in the sense that we are declared righteous, our justification, then we are santified. They put the 2 together in the sense that santification is part of justification, when the Bible teaches otherwise. I suspect you already know this.

You hit the nail on the head, just like Martin Luther did on October 31 almost 500 years ago.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Context my friend! The entire Bible is the proper context of biblical doctrine. Just admit it, Protestants have better biblical theology than Catholics since the Bible is not sufficent revelation for the Catholic. If you want to prove that the Catholic Faith is the One True Faith, you will need to appeal to extra-biblical revelation. Your only hope is apostolic succession. However, if you debate biblical doctrine within Scirpture alone, you will always lose the debate and will be on the short end of a biblical debate. But, I admire your passion… iron sharpening iron, right? The Catholic Faith is not based on biblical revelation as being sufficient and complete.

In other words, you just ignore the passages that explicitly contradict your man made dogma.

I understand that it is difficult to accept error in a long held philosophy. I was once on the outside looking in at the Catholic Church and could never have imagined that I would one day be at home on the inside.

 

[2nd_Adam]

In other words, you just ignore the passages that explicitly contradict your man made dogma.

I understand that it is difficult to accept error in a long held philosophy. I was once on the outside looking in at the Catholic Church and could never have imagined that I would one day be at home on the inside.

I admire your passion, but it is a misplaced passion. It appears your problem can be traced back to your rebellious nature which is revealed by your screen name of Chesterton Rules. Within the Christian Faith, we know through biblical revelation that God rules and reigns. When we try to rule, we sin against God. Are you familar with James 4 in regards to what is evil? Chestonrules is not a Christian screen name.

Boasting About Tomorrow

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. -

 

[JohnnyBeth]

True Christians reap what they sow.

You and I are not exceptions to this rule.

Sowing and reaping; for the Christian it is rewards…for the pagan it is degree of hell. A Christian cannot forfeit their salvation as I believe you are wrongly implying; perhaps because you do not understand the concept from a Biblical perspective?

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Context my friend! The entire Bible is the proper context of biblical doctrine. Just admit it, Protestants have better biblical theology than Catholics since the Bible is not sufficent revelation for the Catholic. If you want to prove that the Catholic Faith is the One True Faith, you will need to appeal to extra-biblical revelation. Your only hope is apostolic succession. However, if you debate biblical doctrine within Scirpture alone, you will always lose the debate and will be on the short end of a biblical debate. But, I admire your passion… iron sharpening iron, right? The Catholic Faith is not based on biblical revelation as being sufficient and complete.

Very well and charitably said.

 

[JonNC]

Except for a minor point; they don’t believe it. I suppose you know what their true definition of justification is; which is not apart from santification in the sense that we are declared righteous, our justification, then we are santified. They put the 2 together in the sense that santification is part of justification, when the Bible teaches otherwise. I suspect you already know this.

Surely you are not accusing them of being disingenuous. I never said that the JDDJ solved the issue between us completely, but it does give us a common ground to continue dialogue.
I understand, to a degree, their view of the relationship of justification and sanctification, and do not consider it semi-pelagian, which was the very real abuse Luther was responding to.

Being Missouri Synod, I quite well know the arguments against the JDDJ, and believe them to be short-sighted.

Jon

 

[2nd_Adam]

Surely you are not accusing them of being disingenuous. I never said that the JDDJ solved the issue between us completely, but it does give us a common ground to continue dialogue.
I understand, to a degree, their view of the relationship of justification and sanctification, and do not consider it semi-pelagian, which was the very real abuse Luther was responding to.

Being Missouri Synod, I quite well know the arguments against the JDDJ, and believe them to be short-sighted.

Jon

What is JDDJ?

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by CHESTERTONRULES
The bible explicit informs us that we will be judged for our actions.

We can’t please God without the intervention of his grace. However, his grace can intervene and yet we still have the choice of rejecting him.

We must strive to conform to his will.

If we reject him, he will reject us.

CR,
Would you be offended were I to make a minor change. I believe God will never reject us, but will allow us to reject Him (free will), and pay the consequences.

This IMO, is very dangerous theology when it comes to our affections for God and His glorious gospel. What makes your faith any different than other world religions of works to enter Heaven?

2nd Adam,
I think there is a common ground that recognizes that the regenerate have a necessity and requirement to do good works, as a response to Grace, and Christ’s command that we care for the least of His children. This is not works righteousness, and is far different than the works based religions you referenced. We are justified by grace through faith in Christ. Works without faith are worthless. Faith without works is dead.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

What is JDDJ?

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Sorry for the shorthand.
Jon

 

[2nd_Adam]

CR,
Would you be offended were I to make a minor change. I believe God will never reject us, but will allow us to reject Him (free will), and pay the consequences.

2nd Adam,
I think there is a common ground that recognizes that the regenerate have a necessity and requirement to do good works, as a response to Grace, and Christ’s command that we care for the least of His children. This is not works righteousness, and is far different than the works based religions you referenced. We are justified by grace through faith in Christ. Works without faith are worthless. Faith without works is dead.

Jon

Maybe and maybe not, depending on how grounded the Catholic Christian is in the gospel. I think the Catholic understanding of justification and the rejection of imputation of the righteousness of Christ (forensic) will leave most Catholics confused in the purpose of good works. Heck, many many Protestants think that they will be in Heaven because of being a good person.

 

[JonNC]

Heck, many many Protestants think that they will be in Heaven because of being a good person.

And without grace through faith in Christ, they are mistaken. Similarly mistaken are those who believe they can claim faith, even at one time have faith, but then choose to continue to live a life that rejects Christ’s commands, and be saved nonetheless.

Jon

 

[JohnnyBeth]

And without grace through faith in Christ, they are mistaken. Similarly mistaken are those who believe they can claim faith, even at one time have faith, but then choose to continue to live a life that rejects Christ’s commands, and be saved nonetheless.

Jon

Sounds like code for you believe one can loose what they never had; saving grace.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Surely you are not accusing them of being disingenuous. I never said that the JDDJ solved the issue between us completely, but it does give us a common ground to continue dialogue.
I understand, to a degree, their view of the relationship of justification and sanctification, and do not consider it semi-pelagian, which was the very real abuse Luther was responding to.

Being Missouri Synod, I quite well know the arguments against the JDDJ, and believe them to be short-sighted.

Jon

I wouldn’t expect anything less from you; you are what is known as a “fence sitter”. Neither hot nor cold.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

What is JDDJ?

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_on_the_Doctrine_of_Justification

 

[JohnnyBeth]

CR,
Would you be offended were I to make a minor change. I believe God will never reject us, but will allow us to reject Him (free will), and pay the consequences.

2nd Adam,
I think there is a common ground that recognizes that the regenerate have a necessity and requirement to do good works, as a response to Grace, and Christ’s command that we care for the least of His children. This is not works righteousness, and is far different than the works based religions you referenced. We are justified by grace through faith in Christ. Works without faith are worthless. Faith without works is dead.

Jon

The only human free will a human has is the free-will to chose evil from God’s perspective.

Rom. 3 - “Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”; “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”; “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.” “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

Jer. 13 - Because of the magnitude of your iniquity Your skirts have been removed And your heels have been exposed. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? {Then} you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.

Grace alone via faith alone in God alone. Unless God changes your nature; the old nature will always chose what is evil in His sight; no matter how good you think you are or if you believe that God is not fair.

 

[guanophore]

If baptism is regenerative, why do some baptized people grow up to be atheists? It seems to me that the act of baptism does not guarantee the first stage of a new birth in all cases. The Church throws out seed and some of it falls on stony ground. Then there’s the gospel of John which tells us that you have to be drawn by the Father.

This is an excellent question and observation, and I thank you for asking it. For the same reason this happens in the natural order. Good parents can generate a child, but that child may grow up and depart from the values with which he was raised. You are right, the church does throw the seed, and some of it does fall on stony ground. However, part of the Father drawing a person is when they are born into a Catholic family. Jesus said “suffer the little children to come unto Me, and hinder them not”. When the parents bring the child to Christ in baptism.this is in conformity with His desires, even if they are not model parents.

Just like in the natural order, children need to grow in faith. They are disposed, through baptism, to instruction in the ways of God, but some don’t receive the instruction,a nd some of us outright rebel.

When this happens, it shows that the seed can be planted, germinate, and be choked out by weeds, or overcome by the cares of this life.

The NT is written about adults, and much of it’s contents pre-dated the event of believers wanting to bring their children. The statements we see there about believing before baptism apply to adults.

Even baptized adults can fall from the faith. Contrary to the modern Reformed doctrine, this does not mean they were never saved.

 

[JonNC]

Sounds like code for you believe one can loose what they never had; saving grace.

No codes. One has free will to reject what the Holy Spirit has made available.

We also reject and condemn the dogma that faith and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost are not lost by wilful sin, but that the saints and elect retain the Holy Ghost even though they fall into adultery and other sins and persist therein.

[bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.](http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.)

I wouldn’t expect anything less from you; you are what is known as a “fence sitter”. Neither hot nor cold.

As a Lutheran, I’ve been accused of far worse - by Catholics and evangelicals here. You are welcome to your opinion, after less than 200 posts.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

I think we have a different understanding of grace. Therefore, we are talking past each other.

I don’t think it is that.I think we would agree that grace is God’s unmerited favor. I think it is a different understanding of the nature of man, the nature of sin, and the nature of salvation. We may also disagree on the nature of faith.

We may be talking past each other.

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is an excellent question and observation, and I thank you for asking it. For the same reason this happens in the natural order. Good parents can generate a child, but that child may grow up and depart from the values with which he was raised. You are right, the church does throw the seed, and some of it does fall on stony ground. However, part of the Father drawing a person is when they are born into a Catholic family. Jesus said “suffer the little children to come unto Me, and hinder them not”. When the parents bring the child to Christ in baptism.this is in conformity with His desires, even if they are not model parents.

Just like in the natural order, children need to grow in faith. They are disposed, through baptism, to instruction in the ways of God, but some don’t receive the instruction,a nd some of us outright rebel.

When this happens, it shows that the seed can be planted, germinate, and be choked out by weeds, or overcome by the cares of this life.

The NT is written about adults, and much of it’s contents pre-dated the event of believers wanting to bring their children. The statements we see there about believing before baptism apply to adults.

Even baptized adults can fall from the faith. Contrary to the modern Reformed doctrine, this does not mean they were never saved.

Okay, baptized Catholics do fall from the faith and apostate. Reformed Christians who persevere to the end by the saving grace of God never apostate. The Elect Christian never apostates to the praise of God’s sustaining grace. How can someone be saved and not be saved? Do Catholics move from the kingdom of light to the kingdom of darkness multiple times in their lifetime? Are you united to Christ for part of life, then move to union with Adam, and back again and again… depending of how welll you conform yourself to the moral law of God?

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God’s giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished.
C.H. Spurgeon

For non-reformed theologies…“at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God – and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place.”
D.A. Carson

When we speak of “once saved, always saved,” we are not taking into account the full scope of salvation. We have been saved (justification), was are being saved (sanctified), and we will one day be saved (glorified). You cannot claim to have been “saved” (justified) unless you are being sanctified. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.
Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)