Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[ccolley2]

It is implicitly stated throughout Scripture, “faith alone” apart form works, which is justification before God. How do you believe the OT saints were saved? What are the oral traditions you speak of that were handed down and not written in Scripture?

I am not interested in implicit statements, only EXPLICIT statements. The only time “faith alone” appears in the Bible is in James where it say that you are NOT saved by faith alone.
As for the OT saints, St. Clement of Alexandria writing in 202 AD:

“When we hear, “your faith has saved you” we do not understand [the Lord] to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that He spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly, and who had lacked only faith in the Lord.”

This was first Century Christian teaching. The OT saints were “blameless” before the Lord.
CC

 

[JonNC]

I am not interested in implicit statements, only EXPLICIT statements.

I would suggest great care when using a statement such as this. This is the mantra of the solo scripturist. There is much that Catholics (and Lutherans) believe that is implicit, and not explicit. The Holy Trinity, for example.

Jon

 

[ccolley2]

Okay; you answered where they came from. What exactly are those traditions? and How you know they were not written and contained in the Bible? The only plausible answer anyone can give is this “Sola Catholic Church” The Church alone said so; thus putting the Church in equal or greater authority and I would argue greater authority than God…Impossible and blasphemous.

Since the Catholic Church is defined by the magisterium; it narrows down even further that the magisterium would be equal or greater than God; that still would be blasphemous.

I hope you see the fallacy in your argument and why no one can answer the questions because the end game is because the Church said so, therefore it is true, which is fallacy.

Are you NOT reading any of the Posts here??? This question has been answered numerous times…Please read the posts…all of them, before accusing Catholics of not answering.
CC

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

Do they accord with Scripture, then okay; if not, then one is adding or subtractiong from the Word of God and that is a BIG FAT NO! NO!

TRaditions agree with the Scriptures, the Word of God is not only written, that’s supposing the premise that the Bible is only the written word, which is false, the Bible orders obedience to the Church, and speaks of the Word of the Lord being verbal, like with the Prophets.

Some of the oral traditions how to do the Mass, one was where to face when praying (East) (a couple of ancient sources), another was that Mary was the New Eve (see Irenaus), and gave birth without pain in a cave in Bethlehem (see 1st century writing "Ascension of Isaiah), another was who were the Maries in the New Testament and who were their children (see fragment of Papias also 1st century), and Mary the Mother of Jesus had no others, Another tradition was the Canon of the Old TEstament and even the New, the Jews of Jesus time debated the canon of the Hebrew bible (some rejected the book of Ecclesiates and the Deuteros), another tradition is who authored what New Testament books (some of them do not say, Like John’s Gospel). Another oral tradition is St Peter went to Antioch, then Rome, was banished from Rome under Emperor Claudius’ explusion of the Jews in the 40’s. And also monogamy is not explicitly required in the New Testament (Matt 19) is perhaps the closest to doing it.

etc…

There are others too

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

In addition purgatory, which is alluded to a few times in the New Testament, is a tradition. In addition the mentioning of the Righteous people who have gone on at the Mass is a New Tstament tradition, continued from Jewish tradition. In addition to the intercession of saints which is nor explicitly mentioned is also a Jewish/Apostolic tradition.

 

[hawkeye]

I did not know there was a good thief and a bad thief. What made one a good thief and the other a bad thief (faith alone?) ?

So you have never heard about the Good thief ? you have led a sheltered life.

One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (FAITH ALONE)

So don’t you think He did a good thing by his asking Jesus to remember him when He Jesus shall be in Paradise ? A good work my friend, just has to be a desire, a beat of the heart, which is why Jesus looks into our hearts, doesn’t He ?

Plus the title of your thread is deliberately misleading.

You post up half of what was said, just like the tabloids, they post up half truths, just to grab the headlines.

HALF THE TRUTH IS STILL A WHOLE LIE !

 

[2nd_Adam]

So you have never heard about the Good thief ? you have led a sheltered life.

So don’t you think He did a good thing by his asking Jesus to remember him when He Jesus shall be in Paradise ? A good work my friend, just has to be a desire, a beat of the heart, which is why Jesus looks into our hearts, doesn’t He ?

Plus the title of your thread is deliberately misleading.

You post up half of what was said, just like the tabloids, they post up half truths, just to grab the headlines.

HALF THE TRUTH IS STILL A WHOLE LIE !

Just read the entire teaching of Pope Benedict’s view of justification by faith alone, and let me know what you think. I would also suggest that you read the second link by a Catholic Professor on the topic of justification by faith. The links are found with my signature below.

 

[hawkeye]

Just read the entire teaching of Pope Benedict’s view of justification by faith alone, and let me know what you think. I would also suggest that you read the second link by a Catholic Professor on the topic of justification by faith. The links are found with my signature below.

So at what age limit are we saved by faith, for IE; a baby, surely it has no faith, is that baby saved ?

So how is a baby saved ?

You posted up about Pope Benedict, I’m trying to keep on track here, so is this Catholic Professor part of your original post ?

 

[2nd_Adam]

So at what age limit are we saved by faith, for IE; a baby, surely it has no faith, is that baby saved ?

So how is a baby saved ?

You posted up about Pope Benedict, I’m trying to keep on track here, so is this Catholic Professor part of your original post ?

The OP is all about Pope Bendedict’s teaching on justification by faith alone. It has the same link as my signature.

Post 1 - OP

Pope Benedict XVI agreed with Martin Luther on the truth of faith alone!

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

“For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life”. - Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Carlan]

QUOTE=2nd Adam;5819785]The OP is all about Pope Bendedict’s teaching on justification by faith alone. It has the same link as my signature.

Post 1 - OP

Adam, it had been pointed out several times before that you were missing the two little letters IF. So pleased the light was brightened. as confirmed in the post below.

quote:

Originally posted by 2nd adam
pope benedict xvi agreed with martin luther on the truth of faith alone!

vatican.va/holy_father/be…081119_en.html

“for this reason luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, ***if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at christ, entrusting oneself to christ, being united to christ, conformed to christ, to his life”. - pope benedict xvi ***

Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Pope Benedict XVI agreed with Martin Luther on the truth of faith alone!

vatican.va/holy_father/be…081119_en.html

“For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life”. - Pope Benedict XVI

I agree with Pope Benedict’s “IF” qualifier, and so does Martin Luther, and Reformed Christians. We all love James chapter 2 “faith without works is dead” Mental assent and sinner’s prayers, and altar calls does not necessarily save sinners! Charles Finney rejected Reformed Theology. He is the father of easy believism and decisional regeneration.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Grandison_Finney

…

 

[Carlan]

I agree with Pope Benedict’s “IF” qualifier, and so does Martin Luther, and Reformed Christians. We all love James chapter 2 “faith without works is dead” Mental assent and sinner’s prayers, and altar calls does not necessarily save sinners! Charles Finney rejected Reformed Theology. He is the father of easy believism and decisional regeneration.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Grandison_Finney

…

We at Catholic answers have the entire truth of what Jesus taught his apostles to hand on to us starting at Pentecost , and CA’s interest and dedication is only ln imparting the whole of that truth to visitors to their forums. Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

We at Catholic answers have the entire truth of what Jesus taught his apostles to hand on to us starting at Pentecost , and CA’s interest and dedication is only ln imparting the whole of that truth to visitors to their forums. Carlan

That’s sounds like a commercial for Catholic Answers located in southern California. I’ve been to their headquarters in San Diego and Anahiem CA before. Do you work for Catholic Answers? I guess the Apostle Paul wasn’t Catholic because he only knew in part. Does it bother you that I consider you my brother in Christ? I’m not a visitor at Catholic Answers because I have the title of new member.

2nd Adam
**New Member **

1 Corinthians 13

The Way of Love

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. **For we know in part **and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[Canto]

and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

I think it’s interesting that Paul notes one can have all faith even without charity. But one of course is nothing.

but the greatest of these is love.

I find it intersting that Paul says charity is greater than faith.

James 2:8 If then you fulfil the royal law, according to the scriptures: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; you do well.

Rom 13:10 The love of our neighbour worketh no evil. Love therefore is the fulfilling of the law.

Thanks for posting this. One of my fav chapters of the Bible, always love reading it. Deo Gratias

 

[Carlan]

That’s sounds like a commercial for Catholic Answers located in southern California. I’ve been to their headquarters in San Diego and Anahiem CA before. Do you work for Catholic Answers? I guess the Apostle Paul wasn’t Catholic because he only knew in part. Does it bother you that I consider you my brother in Christ? I’m not a visitor at Catholic Answers because I have the title of new member.

2nd Adam
**New Member **

1 Corinthians 13

The Way of Love

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. **For we know in part **and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I am sorry Adam that you felt I needed to have 1Cor 13 Quoted to me.
You are my brother as a Christian, even tho’ you are separated from the flock(I’m praying for unity , the unity Christ longs for.) As a Christian I love and respect you. I want for you the wholeness of what Jesus has given to us. that’s all.Carlan
us.

 

[hawkeye]

Anyway you never answered me as to how a baby could be saved, plus you never empathized the “If” a small word with a big meaning.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Anyway you never answered me as to how a baby could be saved, plus you never empathized the “If” a small word with a big meaning.

A baby is saved the same way as any other sinner, through the person and work of Jesus Christ. I believe John the Baptist was saved in his mother’s womb.

I agree with Pope Benedict’s if statement within his understanding of faith alone. It is very simliar to what Martin Luther taught too.

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.” - Luther

 

[bookgirl32]

A baby is saved the same way as any other sinner, through the person and work of Jesus Christ. I believe John the Baptist was saved in his mother’s womb.

I agree with Pope Benedict’s if statement within his understanding of faith alone. It is very simliar to what Martin Luther taught too.

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.” - Luther

The “similarity” you mention is the very issue that resulted in Martin Luther excommunicating himself from the Catholic Church.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The “similarity” you mention is the very issue that resulted in Martin Luther excommunicating himself from the Catholic Church.

Then you have to question who has changed in all honesty. In this major Evangelical magazine, Protestants believe that the Catholic Church has changed in regards to the doctrine of justification by faith alone… toward a more biblical position, agreeing with Luther.

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html#

 

[bookgirl32]

Then you have to question who has changed in all honesty.

So you don’t really think that there is a similarity?

In this major Evangelical magazine, Protestants believe that the Catholic Church has changed in regards to the doctrine of justification by faith alone… toward a more biblical position, agreeing with Luther.

You clearly have very little understanding of the Catholic Church. The Church’s DOGMA on salvation does not, and will not change. It is the very act of thinking that a human can change it that causes excommunications.