Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Please post your understanding of the doctrine of justification according to the Epistles of Paul. Then compare your belief with Pope Benedict XVI teaching on the subject. His teaching is quite amazing.

I agree. This a brief but accurate summary of Paul’s teachings on grace and justification:

“For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love.”

 

[2nd_Adam]

I agree. This a brief but accurate summary of Paul’s teachings on grace and justification:

“For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love.”

I really believe you have no idea what the word justification means in context of the Epistles of Paul. Please try to find it in Pope Benedict’s work. It’'s at the begining of his teaching. Never mind, I’ll just post it.

BENEDICT XVI

GENERAL AUDIENCE

St. Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 19 November 2008

Saint Paul (13):

The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I really believe you have no idea what the word justification means in context of the Epistles of Paul. Please try to find it in Pope Benedict’s work. It’'s at the begining of his teaching. Never mind, I’ll just post it.

BENEDICT XVI

GENERAL AUDIENCE

St. Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 19 November 2008

Saint Paul (13):

The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes?

Here’s all you need to know:

ARTICLE 2
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Gottle of Geer;5722586:

It is not hyperbole, it is a clear and easily defined distinction. You can’t win this argument.

Luther claims our actions have no impact on the validity of our faith.

Pope Benedict clearly defines what true faith entails, and our actions are part of true faith.

It can be nothing but hyperbole, **if **Luther is not to be made to contradict himself.​

As for your last sentence - that shows only that you want to think the worst of Luther. Of course good works have no effect - that does not mean that Christians are entitled to sin. As for the bad, neither do they. Why?

• Because saving faith is not founded on the former
• & the evil works of the unjustified do not prevent justification;
• and the evil works of those saved by faith, do not destroy the grace of Christ that saves them.

But as for good works being meritorious, nothing could be further from the truth, or more self-idolatrous. Salvation is all of God, or not at all. What it cannot be is the bastard mixture Rome makes it, in which man & God are partners. Luther tried self-salvation by good works - it did not work.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

## It can be nothing but hyperbole, **if **

Luther is not to be made to contradict himself.

As for your last sentence - that shows only that you want to think the worst of Luther. Of course good works have no effect - that does not mean that Christians are entitled to sin. As for the bad, neither do they. Why?

• Because saving faith is not founded on the former
• & the evil works of the unjustified do not prevent justification;
• and the evil works of those saved by faith, do not destroy the grace of Christ that saves them.

But as for good works being meritorious, nothing could be further from the truth, or more self-idolatrous. Salvation is all of God, or not at all. What it cannot be is the bastard mixture Rome makes it, in which man & God are partners. Luther tried self-salvation by good works - it did not work.

You merely confirm my point.

IMO, you and Luther are wrong, while Pope Benedict and I are right.

God gives us sufficient grace for salvation. We can’t be saved without this free gift.

If we reject this gift, however, we won’t be saved.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here’s all you need to know:

ARTICLE 2
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

Pope Benedict’s teaching on the subject is fresher than the Catholic Catechism. He is addressing specifically the doctrine of justification according to Paul, and in light of Martin Luther’s belief of faith alone. The Pope is addressing the historical dividing line caused by the phrase “faith alone”. The Catholic Catechism is covering a much broader subject as compared to the specific subject of faith alone according the Luther. I will wait for other Catholics to expound their understanding on Pope’s Benedict’s teaching on the doctrine of justification according to the Epsitles of Paul, and his partial agreement of Luther’s belief of faith alone in regards to the doctrine of justification.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Pope Benedict’s teaching on the subject is fresher than the Catholic Catechism. He is addressing specifically the doctrine of justification according to Paul, and in light of Martin Luther’s belief of faith alone. The Pope is addressing the historical dividing line caused by the phrase “faith alone”. The Catholic Catechism is covering a much broader subject as compared to the specific subject of faith alone according the Luther. I will wait for other Catholics to expound their understanding on Pope’s Benedict’s teaching on the doctrine of justification according to the Epsitles of Paul, and his partial agreement of Luther’s belief of faith alone in regards to the doctrine of justification.

There is no difference between his teaching and the catechism.

If you believe there is a difference, please point it out.

 

[2nd_Adam]

There is no difference between his teaching and the catechism.

If you believe there is a difference, please point it out.

This is part of an article on Christianity Today, addressing ECT, and the Catholic’s position on justification…

The timing of Neuhaus’s and Dulles’s deaths is really significant when you realize that Pope Benedict on November 19 in what was otherwise a routine audience in St. Peter’s square, gave a homily on justification and fully embraced the position that Evangelicals and Catholics Together had taken [in the 1997 document, “Gift of Salvation”]. He didn’t identify it as such, but that’s what he did.

*Eleven years after that document was written, the Pope, the head of the church, concluded his homily by saying Luther was right, so long as you don’t exclude charity, that is love, and the works that flow from love. Which of course none of us does.
*
**Do the Catholics in ECT right now take the same position on justification as Neuhaus and Dulles? **

Oh yes. There are probably 12 to 13 other Catholic [leaders] who hold that position. And now of course the Pope holds it, so it almost doesn’t matter who else holds it, in the way the Catholic Church is structured.

*All shifts that take place in Catholicism happen very gradually. Vatican II was an exception. That’s not the way in which theological development occurs within the catholic communion. It occurs in a gradual process in which the pope, and in this case, a cardinal and a couple priests see a way to express something differently and they would argue that there’s no change.

Of course, if you compare it with Trent, there’s a profound change. But they would see it as the development of doctrine. And if it’s contrary to some church council — as this was, clearly — then nothing happens immediately.*

Cardinal [Edward] Cassidy took “The Gift of Salvation”] back to the Vatican in 1997 and was teaching it to the bishops. It sort of percolated through the church, and the Pope, who — significantly — was an Augustinian, picked it up. And then a decade later, it ended up in the catechism. That’s just the way change occurs in the Catholic Church.

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html

Please click the link to understand what I posted in proper context of the entire article.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

This is part of an article on Christianity Today, addressing ECT, and the Catholic’s position on justification…

**Do the Catholics in ECT right now take the same position on justification as Neuhaus and Dulles? **

Oh yes. There are probably 12 to 13 other Catholic [leaders] who hold that position. And now of course the Pope holds it, so it almost doesn’t matter who else holds it, in the way the Catholic Church is structured.

*All shifts that take place in Catholicism happen very gradually. Vatican II was an exception. That’s not the way in which theological development occurs within the catholic communion. It occurs in a gradual process in which the pope, and in this case, a cardinal and a couple priests see a way to express something differently and they would argue that there’s no change.

Of course, if you compare it with Trent, there’s a profound change. But they would see it as the development of doctrine. And if it’s contrary to some church council — as this was, clearly — then nothing happens immediately.*

Cardinal [Edward] Cassidy took “The Gift of Salvation”] back to the Vatican in 1997 and was teaching it to the bishops. It sort of percolated through the church, and the Pope, who — significantly — was an Augustinian, picked it up. And then a decade later, it ended up in the catechism. That’s just the way change occurs in the Catholic Church.

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html

Please click the link to understand what I posted in proper context of the entire article.

You aren’t addresing my question.

Please point out something from Benedict that contradicts the teaching of the catechism.

 

[EphelDuath]

Taking a quote grossly out of context like this is truly just dishonest. Imagine if I took a play by William Shakespeare, and by putting ellipses between each phrase, took him as saying that “I… am the Devil.” That would be ridiculous, right?

 

[2nd_Adam]

You aren’t addresing my question.

Please point out something from Benedict that contradicts the teaching of the catechism.

Is there anything in the Catholic Catechism that remotely state a similar position to what the Pope said?

" For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life".

I thought the Catholic Catechism references the Council of Trent. And we know the phrase faith alone earns an anathema by the Council of Trent, correct? We know the word alone in front of faith has always been the dividing line between Catholics and historic Protestants. The words faith alone is the most loaded words between informed Catholics and informed Protestants.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Is there anything in the Catholic Catechism that remotely state a similar position to what the Pope said?

" For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life".

I thought the Catholic Catechism references the Council of Trent. And we know the phrase faith alone earns an anathema by the Council of Trent, correct? We know the word alone in front of faith has always been the dividing line between Catholics and historic Protestants.

The Catechism is in complete agreement with that statement.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1891 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

 

[2nd_Adam]

Taking a quote grossly out of context like this is truly just dishonest. Imagine if I took a play by William Shakespeare, and by putting ellipses between each phrase, took him as saying that “I… am the Devil.” That would be ridiculous, right?

Please read the entire teaching of Pope Benedict XVI which includes an agreement of faith alone. It’s been posted in its entirety on earlier posts.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

After you read the entire teaching on the doctrine of justification in light of Paul, please let me hear your understanding on what the Pope was teaching in regards to the doctrine of justification according to Paul.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Catechism is in complete agreement with that statement.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1891 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

I really wish that you would consider all that Pope Benedict wrote on the doctrine of justification. It’s a great piece of work. The words faith alone is completely absent from the Catholic Catechism.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I really wish that you would consider all that Pope Benedict wrote on the doctrine of justification. It’s a great piece of work. The words faith alone is completely absent from the Catholic Catechism.

Stop spinning.

Tell me how his statement conflicts with the catechism.

If you can’t, which is apparently the case, then stop trying to distort his position.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Stop spinning.

Tell me how his statement conflicts with the catechism.

If you can’t, which is apparently the case, then stop trying to distort his position.

Are you saying you do not understand the historic significance of the Pope using the words “faith alone”? It was an intentional statement made, addressing the Protestant Reformation as well as Martin Luther. I’m sure you guys have debated the issue of faith alone numerous times on this Forum site. The Catholic Catechism omits all that goes with “faith alone” in regards to theological distinctives. Maybe the Pope undestands faith alone differently than historic Protestants. However his use of the words 'faith alone" shows great progress for Christian unity, especially since the doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel. Since Pope Benedict XVI is Augustinian too, I think I am more theologically in agreement with the Pope than many of the Catholics on this site. I think we should take a break from each other, because we aren’t able to listen to each other. However, I am very interested to hear from other Catholics on the teaching of Pope Benedict on justification according to the OP link. BTW… the link is on my signature too.

 

[Stouts989]

Romans 4:1-11

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

While on the topic of Justification…I’d be curious to see how our Catholic friends interpret this passage in the context of their definition of Justification. Specific comments on the bold sections would be helpful.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Are you saying you do not understand the historic significance of the Pope using the words “faith alone”? It was an intentional statement made, addressing the Protestant Reformation as well as Martin Luther. I’m sure you guys have debated the issue of faith alone numerous times on this Forum site. The Catholic Catechism omits all that goes with “faith alone” in regards to theological distinctives. Maybe the Pope undestands faith alone differently than historic Protestants. However his use of the words 'faith alone" shows great progress for Christian unity, especially since the doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel. Since Pope Benedict XVI is Augustinian too, I think I am more theologically in agreement with the Pope than some of the Catholics on this site.

I’m glad he is trying to reach out. I hope we all can be united in Christ soon.

However, his statements in NO way contradict traditional catholic teaching as clearly and explicitly described in the catechism.

I gave you direct quotes from the catechism.

Do you disagree with these words?

 

[Canto]

The Pope said Luther’s phrase was ture if… [his clarifications follow]
He did not say Luther’s interpretation of the phrase is true…

“St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).” says the Pope

If faith works thought love - faith is not alone - it has love
St Paul says if we have all faith but not love/charity we are nothing
He says love/charity is greater than faith hence St James says we are not justified by faith alone

“Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled.” says the Pope.

Paul makes distinctions between works of the old Law without grace and works of the new law under grace.

“And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ.” says the Pope

No charity (good works) and we do not fulfil communion with Christ.

"Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone." says the Pope

Ti 3:8 It is a faithful saying. And these things I will have thee affirm constantly, that **they who believe in God **may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Ti 3:14 And let our men also learn to excel in good works for necessary uses: that they be not unfruitful.

And if we don’t excel in good works and become an unfruitufl tree?

Paul, James and Benedict teach the same thing.

 

[O.S.Luke]

This thread is starting to read like a Pharisaical argument rather than Christian apologetics.